My journey to Atheism

[wynn]

I've come to the conclusion that our main ethical principle is that competing *against other people involves an attitude of preying on them, which is evil. Self-defense is not included.

Competing *with other people is different. Eg: Americans compete with the British against H1N1.

* for emphasis

So what exactly do you believe is our main ethical principle?

"It is evil to compete against other people" -?

 

[wynn]

But it is socially unstable and contradictory for world religions to say that they know God and what God says. That is an implicit condoning of dishonesty which is detrimental to good civilization that we need for our general happiness. So religion ultimately risks doing the very opposite of what it is supposed to do.

There is of course the issue of living in a society where many religious organizations exist, each providing a somewhat different account of what God supposedly wants for people.

I am sure that with a better understanding, it is possible to meaningfully contextualize religious pluralism as well.

But it is socially unstable and contradictory for world religions to say that they know God and what God says. That is an implicit condoning of dishonesty

Why?

I do not think it is impossible that individuals or groups of people receive revelation from God.
How obligatory those revelations are for other people, is another matter.

 

[aaqucnaona]

So what exactly do you believe is our main ethical principle?

"It is evil to compete against other people" -?

I think I would state the main ethical principle of secular moratily as this -

The central goal should be the betterment of humanity from basic amenities to the human endeavors and this is the what we should act towards - personally and socially, in our daily lives and in our cultures; in such a way that no one innocent is harmed or made prone to harm.

 

[gmilam]

science says i'll disappear after i die.
if that's so, then why wouldn't i extort others if i can get away with it?
if i managed to get beyond compassion because others are feeling good, what stops me from evil?
if i was constantly rejected by my community, why wouldn't i grab a machine gun and shoot as many of them as possible then kill myself?

Hopefully you believe in hell.

Personally, I don't. I think it was made up to keep people like you in line. C'est la vie.

 

[Trooper]

Hopefully you believe in hell.

Personally, I don't. I think it was made up to keep people like you in line. C'est la vie.

Did you vote? I can't remember your stance. Were you a tad bit wishy-washy? :shrug:

Refresh my memory, will ya?

 

[gmilam]

Did you vote? I can't remember your stance. Were you a tad bit wishy-washy? :shrug:

Refresh my memory, will ya?

I didn't vote.

It depends on one's definition of "god".

Jehovah/Yahweh/Allah - I see no evidence for, and would go as far as saying they do not exist.

The more ubiquitous "nature is god"... I'm a little more wishy washy on. Nature does exist (obviously). And there is (obviously) something interesting going on here.

I have quit referring to the universe as "god" as it just confuses people. And my "belief" in "Mother Nature & Father Time" does not carry any sort of moral code or ritual with it.

 

[Jan Ardena]

I didn't vote.

It depends on one's definition of "god".

Jehovah/Yahweh/Allah - I see no evidence for, and would go as far as saying they do not exist.

The more ubiquitous "nature is god"... I'm a little more wishy washy on. Nature does exist (obviously). And there is (obviously) something interesting going on here.

I have quit referring to the universe as "god" as it just confuses people. And my "belief" in "Mother Nature & Father Time" does not carry any sort of moral code or ritual with it.

"Mother Nature & Father Time"


Ahhh!!! How cute. :bawl:


jan.

 

[elte]

So what exactly do you believe is our main ethical principle?

"It is evil to compete against other people" -?

Indeed

 

[elte]

Why?

Because they have doubts about it but treat it as certain.

I do not think it is impossible that individuals or groups of people receive revelation from God.
How obligatory those revelations are for other people, is another matter.

I'm kinda with you there. I don't think revelations are impossible either, but I have never seen an example of a revelation that turned out to be real.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Then yes, it was an unintended side effect.

It was unintended as in it was the natural consiquence that would follow from the rest of my paradigm. It is an intentional part only in that I am now reflecting, reading and thinking about it. The choice to include it was a side effect.

Ahh, that makes sense now.

Its actually a very vague belief, hardly something one would positively assert. I include spinozism only in order to account for the experiencial god {in the OP}.

I see.

In a world without theists, atheists wouldn't be required [whether all or none would be atheists is a different philosophical question]. However, if the invisble pink unicorn had believers numbering in billions and they had to power to change or influence the political and educational system, you too would be an a-unicornist.

Your identity to atheism is a position of resistence against negative theist influence affecting the public. That is a very good reason.

Ok. Btw, theists would not count any 'life-form', however god-like, to be god/s.

At least the ones with named Gods.

So you do share the high value all athiests place on scientism.

I certainly value science.

I see that you consider atheism to be holding a negative position. Why is this so? A man without god is the same as a man without big foot, but no one could claim the other to have a negative belief about big foot [that it doesn't exist], its simply that he doesn't buy the claim of big foots existence, for now.

This is why:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism

Btw, what is the how and why of your atheism?

The How:
- I value truth very highly and atheism is a natural side effect of it.

The Why:
- Same as you.

 

[aaqucnaona]

The How:
- I value truth very highly and atheism is a natural side effect of it.

The Why:
- Same as you.

I see you took how to mean the details and why to mean the reasons.
Anyway, I wanted to know how you became an atheist.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

I see you took how to mean the details and why to mean the reasons.

Almost. By "how" I took it as cause. By "why" I took it as intent.

Anyway, I wanted to know how you became an atheist.

It didn't make me feel good being lied to, so I took up the position of atheist.

 

[aaqucnaona]

It didn't make me feel good being lied to, so I took up the position of atheist.

That reminded me of a atheist saying -

One day, you will learn everything about Santa. That day, remember everything you were told about Jesus.

Btw, I just had this message on youtube, probably from a spammer -

I want you to read the following and be honest with your self at the end and decide in a moment of truth with oneself.......... Allah (The Creator of the Heaven and the earth) the one to be worshiped with perfect love and perfect submission created us for a great purpose and that is to worship Him alone, to turn to Him alone, to pray to Him alone...He sent Messengers from Adam to Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Jacob, etc ....till the final Messenger Muhammad Peace be upon all of them. They all came with the same message and that is " No one is worthy of worship except Allah" .....all the creation of Allah submitted itself to the Creator willingly or unwillingly as Allah The Most High says in the Quran " Do they seek other than the religion of Allah (the true Islamic
Monotheism worshiping none but Allah Alone), while to Him submitted all creatures in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly. And to Him shall they all be returned" ( 3:83)

We were born without being asked, when we were in the womb of our mothers, who took care of us there? when we came out to this earth who took care of us then? who is the one that put the love in the hearts of every mother to take care of her child? who is the one that provides for us food, water, etc. we breath the air that He created for us.....for what reason? He is the Most WIse and the Most Merciful........all of that is to worship Him alone and not to set rivals with Him. A Muslim believes in all the Messengers and honor
them they are the best of all the humanbeings, what was the message of Abraham? did he worship Jesus (Peace be upon him)? what was the Religion of Abraham? was it Christianity or Judaism? it didn't exist then....it was ISLAM......submitting to Allah the Most High......" Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true Muslim
(meaning in the state of submission to Allah) Hanifa (someone that would stay away from associating partners with Allah) and he was not of Al-Mushrikun (Polytheists)" (3: 67)
If you believe in the Creator of the heavens and the earth, that He is the creator, sustainer etc.....if you believe that He is the only one worthy of worship not any of His creation not a Prophet from Adam till Muhammed Peace be unto all of them and including Jesus Peace be upon him.....if you believe in that say now with your tongue
"I BEAR WITNESS THAT THERE IS NO ONE WORTHY OF WORSHIP EXCEPT ALLAH.....AND I BEAR WITNESS THAT PROPHET MUHAMMED IS THE FINAL MESSENGER OF ALLAH"

This is the Shahada but you have to say it in Arabic also, so read out
loud the following translation......"ASH HADU ALLA ILLAHA ILLA ALLAH.....WA ASH HADU ANNA MUHAMMADAN RASOOL UL ALLAH"

That's it as simple as that...and then take the time to learn step by step the beauty of this religion, you don't need to learn everything first to say the shahada because if you beleive in what is written
above just say it and then take the time to learn.....

May Allah The Most High guide us all to the truth.

To which I replied -

No thanks. I was not made as a slave and religions dont agree on their gods. No one took care of me in my mother's womb, except my mother. The world is the way it is because of natural processes. There is no salvation to be had, I wont exist once I die.

I respect your enthusiasm to spread what you consider to be the word of god, but I would respectfully say No.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

That reminded me of a atheist saying -

Hahahahah, nice one!

Btw, I just had this message on youtube, probably from a spammer -

To which I replied -

You were being nice I see.

 

[aaqucnaona]

Hahahahah, nice one!

Here you go -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIYf14Jcq-o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZuknsnphEU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSmsV6rFa-s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kejkrSvesg

You were being nice I see.

Why not? Just because he believes in a sky fairy doesn't exclude him from civil conversation, does it now? Anyway, Islam being a very peaceful religion [as we all know - Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings], why not take care not to tread on their memes.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Here you go -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIYf14Jcq-o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZuknsnphEU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSmsV6rFa-s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kejkrSvesg



Why not? Just because he believes in a sky fairy doesn't exclude him from civil conversation, does it now? Anyway, Islam being a very peaceful religion [as we all know - Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings], why not take care not to tread on their memes.

Oh! So now it's ''sky fairy'', and ''flying planes into buildings'', marinated with
sarcasm, eh?

True colours.

jan.

 

[aaqucnaona]

Oh! So now it's ''sky fairy'', and ''flying planes into buildings'', marinated with
sarcasm, eh?

True colours.

jan.

Its not true colors jan, its the tatical difference in [me] talking with an atheist [cat] and a theist [you].

I have to be respectful, not disparaging when talking with a theist. I have to remain professional, stick to objective logic in a debate with you or Sam. With Cat, I can loosen up a little and the spammer is indeed worthy of the ridicule, he was preaching, but you and other theists on Sciforums dont do so, so dont take offense. Besides, preachers, non-thinking theists and extremists [none of which describes you] indeed do "fly planes into buildings". I agree that my words were sharp, but my intention was well placed. eace:

 

[wynn]

"It is evil to compete against other people" -? Indeed

Substantiate.
Why is it evil to compete against other people?

(I have my reasons to believe it is, but for the sake of discussion, I want to hear yours.)

Because they have doubts about it but treat it as certain.

Not everyone has such doubts.

I'm kinda with you there. I don't think revelations are impossible either, but I have never seen an example of a revelation that turned out to be real.

If it was of a personal/private nature (as they are often said to be), then it wasn't within your scope to validate anyway, so you can't say whether it was real or not.