Must Good=Weak?

madanthonywayne

Morning in America
Registered Senior Member
You see it all over the place. From the thread on spanking children, the war on terror, torture of terrorists,vegetarians, war protesters, on and on. A pacifistic attitude is emerging in the West that equates any form of violence with evil. Two quotes come to mind:
"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb" - Dark Helmet​
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”. Edmund Burke​

So, must one disarm oneself in the name of all that's right? Must we eschew violence in all its forms to prove our goodness?

But, in so doing, are we not simply leaving the world open for evil men to do as they please while good men stand by wagging their fingers, confident in their superiority as their throats are cut?
 
madanth said:
So, must one disarm oneself in the name of all that's right? Must we eschew violence in all its forms to prove our goodness?
Now I am seeing people actually refer to torture prisons and panic-filled flailing over-reactions by the world's most powerful military as signs of strength, while people who want to behave with reason and honor are labeled "weak".

Pah. Allowing one''s government to sneak around and wiretap everyone's phones from fear of terrorism is not a sign of strength. Neither is torturing captives. And forbidding one's government from such cowardly behaviors is not the same as "disarming" oneself, nor is prudent curbing of one's government and military done to prove anyone's goodness.
 
In short, systems of morals are only a sign-language of the emotions.

-Nietzsche.

Yes, "good" is always about protecting the weak. It has been so, since the fall of barbarism.

However when the power of the good eye can no longer see, because it posits in an absolute realm of "good", the plowshare of evil much come again. And so the cycle completes.
 
You see it all over the place. From the thread on spanking children,
Spanking is not a sign of strength, it is a sign of weakness. A person who tears a door off its hinges to open it
is not stronger than the person who uses the knob.
So, must one disarm oneself in the name of all that's right?
I realize that spanking was just one example in your list, but this question in relation to it still comes off pretty problematic.

Must we eschew violence in all its forms to prove our goodness?
No, but we must fall out of love with it. We must be more open to other methods. We must not assume that because it 'worked' before, it is the best option now.

But, in so doing, are we not simply leaving the world open for evil men to do as they please while good men stand by wagging their fingers, confident in their superiority as their throats are cut?
Evil men have done what they please in part by convincing people that violence is inevitable and we must rush to use it.

Remember that from our perspective you have acted as an apolagist for an evil man and his rush to violence.
 
The issue of we define "strength" seems to be the first question to be answered. If "strength" is the ability to use force, then goodness probably is correlated with weakness, since the good are more reticent to resort to the use of force.

If "strength" is the ability to resist the use of force by others, then it is more complicated. The "good" need not eschew the use of force in self-defense, though you then get subsidiary questions of which uses of force are defensive. For example: was a pre-emptive war in Iraq "defense"? Obviously for those of us who don't see that Saddam posed us any realistic threat, it is hard to say that war was defensive. Many do not view the war Afghanistan as defensive either, though I do, so the answer to the question will obviously turn out to be subjective.

On the use of torture, it is hard to imagine something more evil than the intentional infliction of anguish on someone who is completely at your mercy. There you have to answer the question of whether the efficacy of torture makes it worth the evil plus worth the various secondary effects (such as the increased likelihood of torture being used on your people and the inability to credibly argue against its use when other people do it). In light of the secondary effects, though, it's hard to argue that eschewing the use of torture is "weakness" since the use of it seems to inflict some costs on us that are just as dire. Even that assumes that the torture will lead to actionable intelligence, which in reality it might not.

In addition to all that, you have to realize that the "game" of international relations is a long term one. The use of "evil" methods might seem expedient and there might be situations where no other options seem to be available, but the use of these methods has a lasting impact. People remember them and their hatreds can last well into the next conflict.

Nearly 150 years later, and I still have to listen to southerners accuse the United States of "aggression" in the Civil War—notwithstanding that it was done to preserve the Union that many of those southerners paradoxically claim to love—because it is so hard to get perspective on the use force, even in a good cause. At the same time, I still cringe at what they did at Andersonville and their blatant attempts to steal U.S. property.

Jews still remember the years of their slavery in Egypt and that happened thousands of years ago. Blacks remember it so strongly that many want reparations for what their ancestors suffered.

Evil acts, even when used in self defense, can cast a long shadow that haunts us into the future. So, even when the use of force may be morally justified, it seems to me more prone to leading to adverse unintended consequences down the road. As such, the strong preference for peaceful resolution of disputes, even when frustration leads us to see no alternative to the use of force, has some merit as it is more likely to lead to a lasting peace than ending a conflict by force would be.

Would Gandhi have been "stronger" if he had used suicide bombing against the Brits? Would the Civil Rights Movement have been stronger if they'd shot Bull Conner dead or tortured the locals in Philadelphia, Mississippi to find out who killed James Chaney, Andres Goodman, and Michael Schwerner. I am sure just murdering Bull Conner had to have occurred to somebody, where they weak for having refrained? In both cases there were also people who thought that a non-violent movement against the oppression they faced was dumb and that the oppressors would triumph.

Because the long term consequences of the use of force can be so dire, we need the more pacifistic elements to help rein in our natural inclination to indulge in it. It's good to be forced to confront the question of whether the methods we're using are necessary or merely expedient, and if the latter whether they are worth it.
 
Maybe we need to return to practicing human sacrifices, so that we can flex our non-pacifist muscles and show the world we are not to be underestimated as a violent society.

Or, we could reason that violence simply brings about more violence. And that it takes "real" strength to be the one to stand up and put a stop to it.

Perhaps, those evil men who sit waiting to slit our throats were simply spanked too much as children? :rolleyes:
 
You can not have a noble warrior without a noble war.
The only noble war is a definsive one.
 
Strong vs. weak...and good vs. evil...are not related.

The weak are not necessarily good.

The strong are not necessarily evil.
 
i agree two different thing's but it is a weekness when one person has the right to kill and another has not the right, when one person has the right to steal and the other does not. or one person gets away with , another does not.

people need to follow the same law so that the playing field is equal.
 
i agree two different thing's but it is a weekness when one person has the right to kill and another has not the right, when one person has the right to steal and the other does not. or one person gets away with , another does not.

people need to follow the same law so that the playing field is equal.

or else live separate from each other in there own equal rights worlds.
 
Strong vs. weak...and good vs. evil...are not related.

The weak are not necessarily good.

The strong are not necessarily evil.

Of course the relationship is not one of logical necessity, but there might be a correlation between goodness and weakness and evil and strength. People living in Somalia are not necessarily poor, but there is a strong correlation between living in Somalia and being poor.

In Mad's argument, he basically posits that good people eschew some strategies (like torture) that might be beneficialin favor of more "humande" ones. The less good out there might be willing to torture, but if the humane alternative works better, they'd use that too. So it could be argued that morality provides constraints on strategic choice, whereas immorality allows unfettered strategic choice.

That means that, all else being equal, the immoral have at least as good and possibly a more effective set of strategies available to them that the moral cannot take advantage of. (My argument for why this might not be so is in my prior post). All else being equal, that suggests the best the good can do when facing the evil if fight them to a draw, or lose. (Now, all else is not equal and hence the evil will not necessarily have equal or better strategies than the good, but we can assume equality for hypothetical purposes) That's the sort of weakness the original post speaks of.
 
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