Muslims and Psalms

[jcarl]

You can do numerous rightous things, but if they are not done in the name of god, they're nothing, because god is the only worthy cause.

Okay I'll take that

Similarly, Jesus lived in the name of god, died in the name of god, done everything in the name of god...Not because he's god...but because he was trying to teach christians that GOD IS THE ONLY ONE WHO IS GOOD AND WORTHY....and while Jesus lived in the name of god, he couldn't find it in his heart to call himself good, because as he put it, none is good but god.

John 5:17-18: "But Jesus answered them,'My Father[literally "My own Father"Greek-patera idion]has been working until now, and I have been working.' Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was HIs Father, making Him equal with God."
How else do/can you interpret this?
With the claims He made, Jesus is either God or a liar. He is either right when He says in John 10:30, 8:58 or he is wrong. One or the other. If He is wrong than He is a liar and is therefore not a good man. The idea is that if He is right, then He is beyond a good man, and if He is wrong than He is a liar and not worthy to be called a good man.

Jesus was inspired indeed, yet the writers were mere copiers and recorders who made mistakes,

If they made mistakes, then how can you be sure that Jesus actually said/did what it says He did?

made changes when they couldn't understand the original text, ect

Could you show me some evidence of this?

Obviously, you are not getting what Jesus is saying....His words are really profound and powerfull...but may not travel except to those that can understand their meanings

Then what does it mean?

...Yet when such a man was asked if he was good, he declined to receive anything to himself,

Really? Look at Matt. 16:14-17. 'Jesus asks them," Who do men say that I am?" And they replied,"Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah...or one of the prophets." He said to them,"But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter said,"You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God." Jesus answered,"blessed are you Simon, son of Jonah..." We see here that Jesus accepts the glory given to Him by His disciples. We see that there is a distinction between being a prophet and being the Son of God.

Jesus wouldn't care if you call him a liar, because he is nothing of himself. He has dedicated himself totally to god, so while you are insulting him, he cares not of the insults....He is consumed totally by god.

I am not calling Him a liar; I am stating the hypothetical that if Jesus is less than God Himself, then He is a liar because that[God] is what he claimed to be.

I hate to see you make such a simplification of Jesus. Jesus didn't push a button to obtain powers and surrender them....JESUS DENIED HIMSELF....Do you understand the concept of SELF DENIAL? Jesus lived for god most of the time, but still he had to eat and drink to survive, and he did minimal self maintenance while denying himself the rest of the time.

Ok what I was talking about was that the characteristics of God(omnipotence, omniscience, etc.) Jesus possessed these as God. However, when He came down to us, he voluntarily surrendered some of these characteristics. Now since that surrender was a voluntary one, then He could also use the characteristics when he desired. He could choose to use them or not use them. Does that make sense?

Please reconsider your position.

Could I have a reason?

And it talks of a son of david, and a son of god, and son of a whole lot of other people. The son of Man means that Jesus is human who is born from man. In the Quran, Jesus is called the Son of Mary.

Matt. 1:16:"And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was was born Jesus..." Notice the change in expression? This is a clear indication that Jesus was not begotten by natural means. And I'm curious, why does the Quran call Jesus the Son of Mary?

 

[Siddhartha]

Proud Muslim, please re-consider your position. If Islam preaches the ignorance you have demonstrated, then thank you for teaching us. If it does not, then perhaps you should act more like the prophet would have.

 

[Michael]

'The little girl, entirely nude, is immobilized in the sitting position on a low stool by at least three women....The traditional operator says a short prayer: "Allah is great and Mahomet is His Prophet. May Allah keep away all evils." Then ...[/COLOR]

Correct me if I am wrong but I was under the impression that this was more of an African tradition? Like many religions, as Islam spread (sometimes by conquest) into Northern Africa - it evolved and adapted and in these African-locals adopted the local traditions. Much like Christmas and Easter was an adaptation in Christianity. So I wouldn’t say that it is a particular fault of the religion that these people cut their girls – it’s just their tradition. I’m convinced that even if these women were Buddhists they’d probably be doing the same thing. Not to say it is correct or that it’s incorrect – I think everyone here would agree it’s disgusting, and I personally think it’s incorrect. But that just my personal opinion. I also feel it’s disgusting to force a woman to cover herself from head to toe – even if it’s societal or family cohesion. However I will accept this is local tradition in parts of the Middle East. And hey, I’m not allowed to walk around buck-naked in the USA - so we can agree everyone has their socially acceptable traditions Heck beer is a must at dinner in Turkey (when a certain fish is served for dinner), whereas in Iran I doubt that’s the case!

.....you are ugly disgusting piece of arab rotten rubbish.

You really need to logically accept when someone makes a valid point. If some Islamic Scholar has accepted the notion that female circumcision is permissable ..

Female circumcision falls within the category of the permissible.

then accept it and move on. Or say, well OK, but I think it’s wrong.

However, going off and having a tantrum because someone says something you don’t like is acting a bit adolescent don’t you think? Just because you are proud of your culture and of your religion doesn’t mean that there isn’t going to be some people of your culture and religion that think differently then yourself and, of those, some that you may think are totally wrong. What you need to understand is that they have their belief. Which they will have regardless if your were born or not born. Their cultural beliefs are not a personal attack against you and neither are some Islamic Scholars interpretation of some words on a page – whether or not you think it’s a valid interpretation or not.


Back on topic:
A questionb] Do you think it would be OK for you (or people likeminded) to go to Africa and change these peoples culture in this regards (female circumcision)?

 

[Flores]

John 5:17-18: "But Jesus answered them,'My Father[literally "My own Father"Greek-patera idion]has been working until now, and I have been working.' Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was HIs Father, making Him equal with God."
How else do/can you interpret this?

First off, father is not by any means equal to the son. Without a father there can be no son. Second, Jesus never spoke Greek, so patera idion is not Jesus words. Find out in aramaic what jesus might have said and then will have a discussion on this. The jews tried to kill Jesus because they tried to fool god and so god fooled them back. Instead of submitting to god, the jews insisted that they are chosen people and the Messiah is coming just for them and not the universe. When the Messiah came and spoke to everyone, they were bitter. They wanted a king to themselves to take care of them, not a prophet to guide humanity. The jews denied jesus because he didn't satisfy their agenda, and the christians are currently denying the true Jesus because it doesn't fit their agenda. It's a sad situation.

With the claims He made, Jesus is either God or a liar. He is either right when He says in John 10:30, 8:58 or he is wrong.

You are doing the same thing that the jews did...You are judging and custom fitting Jesus as you think it will fit to your limited understanding of what may be a poorly traslated incomplete corrupted bible. To the Jews, Jesus was either the deliverer of the Jews or a liar. To the christians, Jesus is either god or a lier...Same crooked selfish thinking. That's why I'm a muslim. Jesus is not a liar, Mohammed is not a liar, and they are all great, but less than god. You can not go wrong or hate with Islam, because we accepted all advice regardless of the race and type of prophet, and we keep grounded and free from idolization by focusing on god and god alone.

One or the other. If He is wrong than He is a liar and is therefore not a good man. The idea is that if He is right, then He is beyond a good man, and if He is wrong than He is a liar and not worthy to be called a good man.

So jcarl, if Jesus is not god, what would you do? Call him the antichrist and cross him again??? Call him a liar and mock him? You truly love Jesus jcarl.

If they made mistakes, then how can you be sure that Jesus actually said/did what it says He did?

Because the Quran as revealed from god and documented as soon as it was revealed in a language that is not lost till today verifies that Jesus existed, verifies that Jesus was born a virgin birth, verifies that jesus was a rightous prophet, verifies that the christians would quarrel over details about his life and death that neither of them is sure about...And while I accept that jesus existed, I don't hang my life on it...I go on, because Jesus is not the basis of my belief, god is.... but you are stuck on Jesus and still all confused about details that may be right, may be wrong, whatever..It seems to be your choice, so you have definetly earned your state of confusion.

Could you show me some evidence of this?

This is imminent...and let me give you an example. When you read the bible, you have a conviction and a set of belief, for example, you believe that Jesus is god. You always try to make of every word like it's a confirmation that your belief is correct, so your choice of words in translation and there are many words to be used will be most likely swayed by your convictions. You are not lying or corrupting things on purpose, you are just not chosen by god to have a transparent heart to copy the truth as is...you are a good man, but not a prophet, so what you right is your truth and not the humanity truth. The bible readers of today are reciting the believes of the ancient as they thought Jesus might have tried to tell us. Christians are not followers of christ, but are followers of early christians.

Then what does it mean?

I have told you before what it means. I told you that Jesus lived in the way of god and in self denial. His yolk or veil was light, just like most prophets. His heart and brain didn't process the truth, but transmitted it as is. Yet, Jesus would not ever take a glory that doesn't belong to him, so he says that he's not good and none is good save god.

Really? Look at Matt. 16:14-17. 'Jesus asks them," Who do men say that I am?" And they replied,"Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah...or one of the prophets." He said to them,"But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter said,"You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God." Jesus answered,"blessed are you Simon, son of Jonah..." We see here that Jesus accepts the glory given to Him by His disciples. We see that there is a distinction between being a prophet and being the Son of God.

But you say that he is god, yet you show me a translated version of him saying that he is the son of god???? He didn't even say that he is the ONLY son...what's that all about? Also, the word son is a greek word and implies subordination, follower of, ect...All rightous christians were called sons of god...meaning followers of god. In this verse, Jesus has equated himself to every good man who desires to be a follower, servant, son of god.

I am not calling Him a liar; I am stating the hypothetical that if Jesus is less than God Himself, then He is a liar because that[God] is what he claimed to be.

He never claimed to be god. As you showed above, he despite of poor translation may have agreed on being one of the sons (follower) of god.

Ok what I was talking about was that the characteristics of God(omnipotence, omniscience, etc.) Jesus possessed these as God. However, when He came down to us, he voluntarily surrendered some of these characteristics. Now since that surrender was a voluntary one, then He could also use the characteristics when he desired. He could choose to use them or not use them. Does that make sense?

Not at all...But it would make a lot of sense to some one who is caught in a real illogical trap.

Could I have a reason?

Beside the total inconsistency in your thought process...No you may not have a reason to be a fool.

Matt. 1:16:"And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was was born Jesus..." Notice the change in expression? This is a clear indication that Jesus was not begotten by natural means. And I'm curious, why does the Quran call Jesus the Son of Mary?

You are reading too much into this. Jacob is a male, he doesn't give birth, he begets. Male begets, females give birth...Jesus is born of Mary...Joseph is begotton my his dad and born of his mom????What's the big deal with christians?? Jesus Christ

 

[Flores]

However, going off and having a tantrum because someone says something you don’t like is acting a bit adolescent don’t you think?)?

No I don't think so....You are dead wrong in your assessment? Are you going to have a tantrum yourself out of my disagreement with you?

Just because you are proud of your culture and of your religion doesn’t mean that there isn’t going to be some people of your culture and religion that think differently then yourself and, of those, some that you may think are totally wrong. What you need to understand is that they have their belief. )?

They can shove it up their behinds, because that's the only logical location for it....Not up mine.

Which they will have regardless if your were born or not born. Their cultural beliefs are not a personal attack against you and neither are some Islamic Scholars interpretation of some words on a page – whether or not you think it’s a valid interpretation or not.

A questionb] Do you think it would be OK for you (or people likeminded) to go to Africa and change these peoples culture in this regards (female circumcision)?

No, I never have advocated that we try to change their mind. I merely criticized them for it. I personally think we should let them cut and infibulate (sew up) their women until they totally mess up the women natural productive system or spread AIDS and others during their unsanitized brutal procedures, and then the problem is solved, no more babies, no more humans, to follow in the wrong footsteps.
Check out the problems

http://www.spinifexpress.com.au/kadi/whatfgm.htm
The physical complications of FGM can be divided into short and long term. Haemorrhage, shock, injury to the anus or urethra and septicemia are just some of the possible results of clitodectomy or infibulation within the first few weeks after the procedures, while HIV infection, urinary tract infection, abcess, dermoid cysts, and reproductive tract infections are all possible long term complications. Many or all of these complications can lead to the death, infertility or difficulties for the girl-child or woman. 3

 

[Michael]

No I don't think so....You are dead wrong in your assessment? Are you going to have a tantrum yourself out of my disagreement with you?

Sorry for the confusion. I was refering to P_M treatment of you! Not your treatment of me!

 

[Michael]

No, I never have advocated that we try to change their mind. I merely criticized them for it. I personally think we should let them cut and infibulate (sew up) their women until they totally mess up the women natural productive system or spread AIDS and others during their unsanitized brutal procedures, and then the problem is solved, no more babies, no more humans, to follow in the wrong footsteps.
Check out the problems

It's a tough call, effecting their culture that is. On one hand you don’t want to get jammed into thinking your culture is the best and everyone else should do it your way (think 100 years ago and the English, French, etc.. or P_M yesterday but also mutilating little girls is a bit perverse. I think, maybe, there is a way educate in them in a scientific manner and in this way some beliefs could simply be dispelled by scientific fact. Such as the belief that putting a condom on a stick and placing the stick in the ground is going to prevent AIDS. I'm not sure what the reasons are for mutilation but maybe their just as irrational?

 

[jcarl]

First off, father is not by any means equal to the son. Without a father there can be no son.[/B]

Here you're bringing up the idea that in order for there to be a Son of God, it would take God procreating another God; this isn't the case. The idea is that God, YahWeh, is three persons in one essence. It's three personalities within one entity or essence.

Second, Jesus never spoke Greek, so patera idion is not Jesus words. Find out in aramaic what jesus might have said and then will have a discussion on this.

If this sentence were translated into Spanish, wouldn't it still be my words, just retold that others might understand it. That John wrote his gospel in Greek--or in German for that matter--has little to no effect on the meaning of what he is writing.

[B}The jews tried to kill Jesus because they tried to fool god and so god fooled them back.[/B]

John 10:33:"The Jews answered Him, saying,"For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

It seems apparent as to why they wished to kill Him. Now, what/how was it that they tried to fool God?

Instead of submitting to god, the jews insisted that they are chosen people

Umm....Deut. 14:2, Isaiah 43:1 paint a different picture. They didn't come up with it; God did.

and the Messiah is coming just for them and not the universe.

They were looking too far down the road; when Jesus comes back--the church will have already been taken up--He will accomplish the prophecies not yet fufilled concerning Israel and the Jewish people. They were just too anxious. Isaiah 8:14.

The jews denied jesus because he didn't satisfy their agenda,

The Jewish people did this because Jesus wasn't the military leader they had hoped; the priest denied HIm because He claimed equality with God and was thus a blasphemer.

and the christians are currently denying the true Jesus because it doesn't fit their agenda. It's a sad situation.

What is the Christian agenda?

You are doing the same thing that the jews did...You are judging and custom fitting Jesus as you think it will fit to your limited understanding

I'm simply going by what the Bible says. I'm not coming up with this stuff as I go along.

of what may be a poorly traslated incomplete corrupted bible.

You told me earlier that the Bible is by no means trash and that you read it to your children. So you read it in spite of the idea that it might be corrupted, etc?

To the Jews, Jesus was either the deliverer of the Jews or a liar. To the christians, Jesus is either god or a lier...Same crooked selfish thinking.

How is it selfish? Jesus claimed on numerous occasions that He was God/God's equal. Either He is what He says or He isn't. If He isn't God, then He is not worthy to be considered a prophet of God.

So jcarl, if Jesus is not god, what would you do? Call him a liar and mock him?

This is probably what I would do. However, this kind of statement doesn't get past the initial "if." That doesn't exactly mean that it could happen.

You truly love Jesus jcarl.

If Jesus isn't God, as He claimed, He obviously didn't love us, nor is He worthy of being loved. Once again, this doesn't get past the "if"

Because the Quran as revealed from god and documented as soon as it was revealed in a language that is not lost till today verifies that Jesus existed, verifies that Jesus was born a virgin birth, verifies that jesus was a rightous prophet, verifies that the christians would quarrel over details about his life and death that neither of them is sure about

Interesting. How is the Quran so sure that we don't know what happened in Jesus's life?

This is imminent...and let me give you an example. When you read the bible, you have a conviction and a set of belief, for example, you believe that Jesus is god. You always try to make of every word like it's a confirmation that your belief is correct, so your choice of words in translation and there are many words to be used will be most likely swayed by your convictions. You are not lying or corrupting things on purpose, you are just not chosen by god to have a transparent heart to copy the truth as is...you are a good man, but not a prophet, so what you right is your truth and not the humanity truth. The bible readers of today are reciting the believes of the ancient as they thought Jesus might have tried to tell us. Christians are not followers of christ, but are followers of early christians.

That isn't what I'm looking for; show me the original manuscript and then show me where the new manuscript slips up.

Yet, Jesus would not ever take a glory that doesn't belong to him, so he says that he's not good and none is good save god.

Hold up. Matt. 15:17:" Why do you call Me good? NO one is good but One, that is God." He is not saying of Himself that He isn't good. He is saying simply that He, Jesus, is either God or He isn't a "Good" person. It is an inescapable dilemna.

But you say that he is god, yet you show me a translated version of him saying that he is the son of god????

This is where the Trinity comes into play. Jesus is the Son personality of the GodHead, including God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. The three combine in one essence to become God, just as present, past, and future, combine to make Time.

He didn't even say that he is the ONLY son

John 3:16.

...what's that all about? Also, the word son is a greek word and implies subordination, follower of, ect...All rightous christians were called sons of god...meaning followers of god. In this verse, Jesus has equated himself to every good man who desires to be a follower, servant, son of god.He never claimed to be god. As you showed above, he despite of poor translation may have agreed on being one of the sons (follower) of god.

Peter calls Jesus in Matt.16:16:" Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God." No one else is being referred to when the phrase,"the Son of God," is used. There is obviously a distinction being made.

[B}Not at all...But it would make a lot of sense to some one who is caught in a real illogical trap.[/B]

And how is it illogical? For you to just say it is helps me none, but an example helps tremendously.

Beside the total inconsistency in your thought process...No you may not have a reason to be a fool.

First, when have I been inconsistent?
Second, I ask that you not degrade yourself with the mudslinging of words such as fool. That helps your argument none.

You are reading too much into this. Jacob is a male, he doesn't give birth, he begets. Male begets, females give birth...Jesus is born of Mary...Joseph is begotton by his dad and born of his mom????What's the big deal with christians?? Jesus Christ

The idea was that Jesus was not born of a natural way. I am just as much a son to my father as I am to my mother, but that's because I was born in a natural way. The fact that Islam calls Jesus the son of Mary demonstrates that Jesus wasn't born in the normal fashion.