Muslim Marriage Contract

[Myles]

Four years down the line in the uk a proposed marriage contract for muslims, originally accepted by the Muslim Council, has now been rejected. A spokesman for the Council denied that Islamic fundamentalist opposition had brought about the change of attitude.

There are two sticking points.

1. A woman should be free to marry the man of her choice, not someone chosen by her father or another male relative.

2. The man being married would be expected to sign a statement that he would not take a second or third wife.

A spokesperson for a Muslim women's pressure group said it was ridiculous that women with a university education should be treated like children when it comes to marriage. But the dyed-in-the wool old men have had their way.

So much for integration !

Can anyone suggest a good reason for forced marriages; I can think of none.

 

[Ghost_007]

Four years down the line in the uk a proposed marriage contract for muslims, originally accepted by the Muslim Council, has now been rejected. A spokesman for the Council denied that Islamic fundamentalist opposition had brought about the change of attitude.

There are two sticking points.

1. A woman should be free to marry the man of her choice, not someone chosen by her father or another male relative.

2. The man being married would be expected to sign a statement that he would not take a second or third wife.

A spokesperson for a Muslim women's pressure group said it was ridiculous that women with a university education should be treated like children when it comes to marriage. But the dyed-in-the wool old men have had their way.

So much for integration !

Can anyone suggest a good reason for forced marriages; I can think of none.

Do you have a source? Who are the fundamentalists that make up the opposition?

Regarding Islamic marriages, you are misinformed. Islam does not condone or encourage forced marriages, a forced marriage is actually un-Islamic and invalid under Islamic law. The Prophet Muhammad explicitly condemned forced marriages:

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 69:

Narrated Khansa bint Khidam Al-Ansariya:

that her father gave her in marriage when she was a matron and she disliked that marriage. So she went to Allah's Apostle and he declared that marriage invalid.

Forced marriages are not valid in Islam.

Another hadith:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "A virgin should not be married till she is asked for her consent; and the matron should not be married till she is asked whether she agrees to marry or not." It was asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How will she(the virgin) express her consent?" He said, "By keeping silent."

Narrated 'Aisha: Allah's Apostle said, "It is essential to have the consent of a virgin (for the marriage). I said, "A virgin feels shy." The Prophet; said, "Her silence means her consent."

Forced marriages are wrong, no question about it. Arranged marriages with consent are a-okay. People tend to confused arranged marriages with forced marriages. A lot of the forced marriages are pushed by elders with a backwards mentality and you get misinformed people that misunderstand the issue, forced marriages occur not just because of a distorted view of religion but also because of backward views regarding caste - something completely unrelated to religion, many elder Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus only allow their children to marry people from within their own caste - religion is not enough.

 

[Myles]

Do you have a source? Who are the fundamentalists that make up the opposition?

Regarding Islamic marriages, you are misinformed. Islam does not condone or encourage forced marriages, a forced marriage is actually un-Islamic and invalid under Islamic law. The Prophet Muhammad explicitly condemned forced marriages:



Forced marriages are not valid in Islam.

Another hadith:

My source is the BBC and sources don't get more respectable than that. I heard interviews with both men and women and I am reporting to the best of my ability what I heard.

What is difficult to understand is that I keep hearing that this is un-Islamic, that is un-Islamic but whenever Islam is criticized. But the fact remains that these practices take place within the Islamic community.

I can accept that a forced marriage may be more of a tribal than a religious matter but the question remais as to why the Muslim Council failed to ratify the contract, having agreed to do so at an earlier stage.Also .the women's group I spoke of were very vociferous in their condemnation. One said " he can threaten me that if I do not do as he wants he will take another wife.

A man said that Muslim men could not be expected to agree to take other wives because , when a wife was past childbearing ahe her husband " might want more babies."

We have safe houses in the UK for women who wish to avoid a forced marriage and who consequently go in fear of their lives. THe are generall Hindus or Muslims.

I am not a mischief maker; I am reporting what I heard. You might like to contact the Muslim Council of Great Britain for clarification of their views on the prosed marriage contract.


I apologize for having inadvertantly erased part of your post. Their seems to be a thin line between arranged marriages and forced marriages. There was a recent TV program which followed a 10-year old Muslim boy to Pakistan where, without understanding what was really happening, he was betrothed to a 5-year old girl.

 

[Ghost_007]

My source is the BBC and sources don't get more respectable than that. I heard interviews with both men and women and I am reporting to the best of my ability what I heard.

A link would have been helpful.

What is difficult to understand is that I keep hearing that this is un-Islamic, that is un-Islamic but whenever Islam is criticized. But the fact remains that these practices take place within the Islamic community.

An important distinction has to be made. Islam should be judged by the teachings of Islam (The Quran and the sayings of the Prophet (Hadith) not by what certain people with beards and turbans happen to be doing, its easy to fall into the trap of taking every action of a guy that looks like a practicing Muslim as being condoned and acceptable in Islam. Judge Islam by what is stated in the Quran and hadith, with issues such as marriage, the position of Islam is clear as such things are explained explicitly.

I can accept that a forced marriage may be more of a tribal than a religious matter but the question remais as to why the Muslim Council failed to ratify the contract, having agreed to do so at an earlier stage.

I wouldn't have a clue. I'm sure that bbc link would shed some light on the issue.

Also .the women's group I spoke of were very vociferous in their condemnation. One said " he can threaten me that if I do not do as he wants he will take another wife.

Women have every right to be vociferous but the example that woman uses is extreme. Marriages should only take place when both parties are happy, marriage is a blissful union, that sort of talk makes it sound like they are discussing some sort of ceasefire agreement.

A man said that Muslim men could not be expected to agree to take other wives because , when a wife was past childbearing ahe her husband " might want more babies."

I'm pretty sure this person would be a standard matey and not some important person. From a religious perspective, a man can have up to 4 wives but only if he can treat them all equally - that is the condition. During the time of the Prophet, that ruling was introduced in order to help those women that had been widowed or those living in poverty. As far as I’m concerned, having 4 wives would be a massive headache, it is a burden, I wouldn't want more than 1 wife. It’s a common misconception, Muslim men rarely marry more than 1 woman, its not overtly common in the Muslim World. In Pakistan I only came across 1 person that had 2 wives, everyone else had 1. Its not as common as many think. Imams and scholars themselves rarely take more than 1 wife. (I never came across one religious scholar in Pakistan with more than 1 wife.)

We have safe houses in the UK for women who wish to avoid a forced marriage and who consequently go in fear of their lives. THe are generall Hindus or Muslims.

I am not a mischief maker; I am reporting what I heard. You might like to contact the Muslim Council of Great Britain for clarification of their views on the prosed marriage contract.

Yes, it is sad. There are cases of women having to run away from their families in order to avoid forced marriages. The main cause is a backward’s village mentality, not religion. Trust me, I know of quite a few real cases of this happening. Even when a girl wishes to marry someone of the same religion, the parents (often the father) will reject it because the person is of a different caste. This not only affects Muslims, but Sikhs and Hindus - it has affected by Indian mates too.

I apologize for having inadvertantly erased part of your post. Their seems to be a thin line between arranged marriages and forced marriages. There was a recent TV program which followed a 10-year old Muslim boy to Pakistan where, without understanding what was really happening, he was betrothed to a 5-year old girl.

A 10 year old boy is not in a position to make that sort of decision, that is obviously wrong. Generally speaking it is a lot harder for women, when I was in Pakistan people would suggest I get married, it was irritating but I could simply brush it off, since I was 23 years old (a grown man), no one could say anything, though they do try to persuade you. A mate of mines would sarcastically say he'd marry every girl in the village, lol. But girls can have it harder as they can crumble under the pressure - you have to be firm.

Asians from the UK are a major catch simply because whoever you marry back in Pakistan or India can eventually come to the UK. That means when you are visiting Pakistan or India, families will want you to marry their daughters, they know if you choose their daughter they will be set as they will have money coming from the UK. That is the main reason why a lot of this happens, it has very little to do with religion. People with a village mentality see an opportunity for riches and sometimes this greed gets the better of them.

 

[(Q)]

An important distinction has to be made. Islam should be judged by the teachings of Islam (The Quran and the sayings of the Prophet (Hadith) not by what certain people with beards and turbans happen to be doing, its easy to fall into the trap of taking every action of a guy that looks like a practicing Muslim as being condoned and acceptable in Islam. Judge Islam by what is stated in the Quran and hadith, with issues such as marriage, the position of Islam is clear as such things are explained explicitly.

More BS. Each time we hear of these type of practices going on with Muslims, it's always un-Islamic. So, Muslims simply ignore the Quran and do what they please? Who actually follows the Quran? Anybody?

There are cases of women having to run away from their families in order to avoid forced marriages. The main cause is a backward’s village mentality, not religion.

Then, why don't Muslims follow the Quran? Isn't it perfect? Would it not fix the problems of backwards villages? Hello?

:crazy:

 

[Myles]

A link would have been helpful.




An important distinction has to be made. Islam should be judged by the teachings of Islam (The Quran and the sayings of the Prophet (Hadith) not by what certain people with beards and turbans happen to be doing, its easy to fall into the trap of taking every action of a guy that looks like a practicing Muslim as being condoned and acceptable in Islam. Judge Islam by what is stated in the Quran and hadith, with issues such as marriage, the position of Islam is clear as such things are explained explicitly.




I wouldn't have a clue. I'm sure that bbc link would shed some light on the issue.




Women have every right to be vociferous but the example that woman uses is extreme. Marriages should only take place when both parties are happy, marriage is a blissful union, that sort of talk makes it sound like they are discussing some sort of ceasefire agreement.




I'm pretty sure this person would be a standard matey and not some important person. From a religious perspective, a man can have up to 4 wives but only if he can treat them all equally - that is the condition. During the time of the Prophet, that ruling was introduced in order to help those women that had been widowed or those living in poverty. As far as I’m concerned, having 4 wives would be a massive headache, it is a burden, I wouldn't want more than 1 wife. It’s a common misconception, Muslim men rarely marry more than 1 woman, its not overtly common in the Muslim World. In Pakistan I only came across 1 person that had 2 wives, everyone else had 1. Its not as common as many think. Imams and scholars themselves rarely take more than 1 wife. (I never came across one religious scholar in Pakistan with more than 1 wife.)




Yes, it is sad. There are cases of women having to run away from their families in order to avoid forced marriages. The main cause is a backward’s village mentality, not religion. Trust me, I know of quite a few real cases of this happening. Even when a girl wishes to marry someone of the same religion, the parents (often the father) will reject it because the person is of a different caste. This not only affects Muslims, but Sikhs and Hindus - it has affected by Indian mates too.




A 10 year old boy is not in a position to make that sort of decision, that is obviously wrong. Generally speaking it is a lot harder for women, when I was in Pakistan people would suggest I get married, it was irritating but I could simply brush it off, since I was 23 years old (a grown man), no one could say anything, though they do try to persuade you. A mate of mines would sarcastically say he'd marry every girl in the village, lol. But girls can have it harder as they can crumble under the pressure - you have to be firm.

Asians from the UK are a major catch simply because whoever you marry back in Pakistan or India can eventually come to the UK. That means when you are visiting Pakistan or India, families will want you to marry their daughters, they know if you choose their daughter they will be set as they will have money coming from the UK. That is the main reason why a lot of this happens, it has very little to do with religion. People with a village mentality see an opportunity for riches and sometimes this greed gets the better of them.

The best I can do by way of a link is to say I heard the programme on BBC Radio 4 in the last couple of days. If I can find a better link I shall pass it on.

You might like to contact the Muslim Council, as I suggested. They are involved in the dispute, so you will get your information from the horse's mouth so to speak/

I still feel the line between forced and arranged marriages is a fine one. If a woman is only allowed to marry a man of her father's choice, it will only be a free choice from her point of view if her father happens to approve of the man she loves. In the absence of a father, the woman must have the consent of a male relative. Tha was one of the points the women interviewed were making.

It sounds like a lot of Muslims are Muslims in name only. I can understand this on an individual basis but when the Muslim Council of GB supports such behaviour, I can only attribute it to religion.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Can anyone suggest a good reason for forced marriages; I can think of none.

If you like a good bride burning or stoning then might as well get the first part over with.

 

[Myles]

GHOST 007

I have found you a link. Google marriage contract issue on bbc's sunday. and you can listen to the programme. I have listened again and what I have said here is borne out by what is said in the programme. Do note that a mufti criticizes the Muslim Counciol of Britain for dropping its support for the contract. In my eyes, we are now definitely talking about a religious issue at the highest level.

 

[S.A.M.]

You do realise that Muslims are not bound to obey any imam or mufti? There is no "level"

Miya biwi raazi to kya karega kaazi?

There's even been a gay marriage in Pakistan [where it is illegal]. Whats wrong with Britain?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4313210.stm

 

[Myles]

You do realise that Muslims are not bound to obey any imam or mufti?

Miya biwi raazi to kya karega kaazi?

Here we go again !When is a Muslim a Muslim ? When he is doing his own thing !

Tell that to the educated women who object to being treated like children. Follow the link above and listen for yourself.

 

[S.A.M.]

Those women are dumb. Why do they give their rights in the hands of men?

In India, women have formed their female sharia court and make their own decisions.

 

[Myles]

Those women are dumb. Why do they give their rights in the hands of men?

In India, women have formed their female sharia court and make their own decisions.

As far as I can see the whole Islam thing is riddled with lies and deceit. You make it up as you go along. Listen to the programme and tell me the Muslim Council of Britain are wrong for not supporting the contract. People look to them for guidance.

 

[S.A.M.]

Oh please, I'm a Muslim woman. IMO, if women want something done, they should just do it. Not whine about what the men won't give them. No one gives you your rights. You have to stand up and take them. I've argued Islam with the best of muftis. Its because I actually bothered to study the religion and not wait for other people to tell me what I can and cannot do.

Muslim marriage contracts are weighed heavily in favour of the woman. You MUST accept the contract [they ask you THRICE: do you agree?], can demand your dowry and refuse to finalise the marriage until it is paid, you get to keep all your money and in the event of divorce, get maintenance until you remarry. Your children get support until maturity. That beats any western court any day. If women are being cheated, they have no one but themselves to blame

 

[John99]

Those women are dumb. Why do they give their rights in the hands of men?

In India, women have formed their female sharia court and make their own decisions.

Excuse me but women fighting for their rights in Islamic countries all the time. Just because you never had to does not make these women who do have to dumb.

Marriage in Sharia means that the father can marry off their daughter's at any age to whoever they feel is right. This is a fact so if you find nothing wrong with it then at least admit that this is the case.

 

[Myles]

Oh please, I'm a Muslim woman. IMO, if women want something done, they should just do it. Not whine about what the men won't give them. No one gives you your rights. You have to stand up and take them. I've argued Islam with the best of muftis. Its because I actually bothered to study the religion and not wait for other people to tell me what I can and cannot do.

Those women are not dumb; they are intimidated. Perhaps you would care to visit the UK and give them the benefit of your advive. Don't be surprized ,
though, when blood is shed ny those non-Muslim Muslims who cling to their interpretation of Sharia.

Surely your wonderful Islam should accord women the rights they seek.

LIsten to the programme !

 

[S.A.M.]

So let me get this right. Women in Britain are more intimidated than women in India and gays in Pakistan. Is that right?

 

[Myles]

So let me get this right. Women in Britain are more intimidated than women in India and gays in Pakistan. Is that right?

I can only speak for what I know of the UK. Muslim women are subject to all sorts of parental pressures from an early age and rebellion is likely to be rewarded by a beating. I have mentioned before that we have safe houses for such older women who go in fear of their families. Have you such places in India ?

As I understand it, what is said in the programme is that under Sharia a women cannot marry without the consent of her father or a male relative, i.e., a walli. Is this not so in India and, if not, how many varieties of Islam are there. You would seem to want us to believe that there is a variety for every occasion.

Listen to the programme and let me have your comments !

 

[Myles]

I'm off to bed now. Talk to you later when you can let me have your views on the programme.

 

[S.A.M.]

You're obviously doing something very wrong.

Big shout goin' out to all the bigots! vincent28uk! stu43t (43t?)! Da Baron! Prince_James! Not 4gettin' mah main man... Cap'n Geoff P!!! Yo, check dis!

OMFG!!! NO WAY IS THIS LAHORE, PAKISTAN!!!

Lahore, Pakistan ... trendy youngsters out hitting the plastic in shopping malls


OMFG!!! NO WAY IS THIS DEWSBURY, UK!!!

Dewsbury, W Yorks ... Muslim women go swaddled in black as they shop in 'liberal' Britain
​

So: I'd just finished having a big poo in a public toilet the other day when, oh no, disaster - no toilet paper!!! So I was looking round frantically for something to wipe my bum on when - thank God! - I spotted a discarded copy of the disgusting downmarket UK tabloid The Sun. Hobbling awkwardly back to the safety of the cubicle I was just about to put this 'newspaper' to good use when this article caught my eye! "Oh my God!" I thought, "This will be excellent target practice for all of Sciforums' resident bigots!" So, I duly brought it home, and I now present the entire article here - in full! Apparently Britain is turning into Pakistan now - and vice versa! Read, aim and fire, boys!!!


TWO NATIONS ARE WORLDS APART
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006510287,00.html

By ANILA BAIG
In Pakistan
November 04, 2006


THE top photo featuring trendy young girls dressed in jeans and T-shirts, quenching their thirst for shopping was taken in Pakistan — traditionally seen by those in the West as teeming with religious fundamentalism and poverty.

The bottom picture of women dressed head to toe in black burkas and niqabs was taken in modern day Britain.

How ironic.

Pakistan was created in 1947 and its revered founder, Mohammed Ali Jinnah, a Western-educated barrister, envisaged a state where everyone could practise their faith, or no faith at all.

Islam, however, is obviously the dominant religion and five times a day you hear the call to prayer. You see women in face veils and burkas but there are also plenty of women who are not covered up at all.

In the growing number of shopping malls in cities like Lahore and Karachi, I saw and heard young girls chattering into mobile phones about an upcoming party.

“I have absolutely NOTHING to wear,” shrieked one. “What about your Gucci dress?” offered another helpfully.

“No yaar,” she replied. “It’s gone for dry-cleaning. Will have to dig out that Chanel number.” All the women seemed to be decked out in designer sunglasses and handbags.

Modelling agencies have sprung up, private parties are legendary and it is bewildering to think that this is going on in a country traditionally seen as claustrophobically conservative.

In fact this is a modern, open and liberal society.

In Britain it is a completely different story. In Dewsbury and parts of Bradford in West Yorkshire, for example, the face veil is becoming MORE popular. It is not uncommon to see women swaddled in black.

British Muslims are becoming more religious while in Pakistan there is a more liberal atmosphere.

I met a group of eight girls at university. Only one was wearing the face veil. The others mostly wore a scarf around their shoulders and had their hair loose.

They told me how education is the latest “must have” for young Pakistani women, no matter how modest their backgrounds. Girls are encouraged to go on to higher education.

At Karachi University female students now outnumber men. Women are also guaranteed a third of the places in parliament.

There don’t seem to be the same problems in Pakistan that there are in Britain. Forced marriage, for example, has all but died out.

Mahwish Akram, 21, said: “It is more likely to happen in remote tribal areas but it doesn’t happen here. It is strange it happens in Britain. You’d think it would be more modern there.”

Views on the veil are mixed but Mahwish said: “In my opinion what is inside is more important. People say it is to protect the woman.

“I personally think the veil is a real barrier. I think it would stop me achieving my goals in my career. Besides no one in my family wears it.”

Only one of the women said she was under pressure — and that was to remove it. Amber Shaheen, 22, said she chose to wear the face cover because it was an expression of her dedication to the word of God.

She didn’t understand or care how it caused offence. “We don’t criticise women in the West who go around half naked so why does it bother anyone else if I go around covered?”

But she said members of her family told her to remove it. She said: “My brother tells me to take it off. He says it is backwards and not necessary.”

Amber has received wedding proposals. She said: “But one suitor said I should take the veil off. I told him I liked the niqab more than him.”

She added: “The British are very hard-working and polite people. They have a good sense of humour. What I like best though is that they don’t take things too seriously.”

I know. How ironic.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=59488

 

[Michael]

Islam should be judged by the teachings of Islam (The Quran and the sayings of the Prophet (Hadith) not by what certain people with beards and turbans happen to be doing, its easy to fall into the trap of taking every action of a guy that looks like a practicing Muslim as being condoned and acceptable in Islam. Judge Islam by what is stated in the Quran and hadith, with issues such as marriage, the position of Islam is clear as such things are explained explicitly.

You know, I say the exact same thing of Communism. Just because it's been a spectacular failure whenever it's weaseled it's way into governing people most certainly doesn't mean there is something fundamentally wrong with Communism. It's means there is something wrong with people. People are to blame. Blame them. Communism should only ever be viewed from an academic angle after having studied the Communist Manifesto.

*inserts links to saying from Marx to make point*

See?


I think Islam and Communism are misunderstood religions. They are obviously wonderful in all ways.