Murder by faith

[Tiassa]

Source: KOMO 4 (Associated Press)
Link: http://www.komotv.com/news/national/17057006.html
Title: "Girl, 11, dies of treatable illness after parents pick prayer over medicine", by Robert Imrie
Date: March 27, 2008

Suffer the little children ....

Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday from diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said the family believes in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but she said they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors ....

.... Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

(Imrie)

Madeline Kara Neumann​

I am ... uh ... well, I am at present damn near speechless. I don't know why. This sort of thing isn't unheard of. But for some reason—maybe because I'm tired—I'm really disturbed. You know, "F@ck God! F@ck religion!" That sort of thing.

But there is a more important aspect to this. So here we have a nexus of religion, psychology, and justice:

• At what point is religion a mental illness?
• At what point does that mental illness endanger other people?
• Should freedom of religion include the right to neglect your children's vital medical needs?
• Is religion a proper excuse for letting a child die?​

These parents should spend the rest of their lives in prison.

I have a daughter. It is literally beyond my comprehension right now to understand how I could possibly be expected to leave her to die.

The moon was waning gibbous. I suppose that only matters if I had put this in the Religion forum.

What is important enough to you to leave your child to die?

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

(ibid)

I mean, the thing that gets me about it is that the guy's faith was so weak that he opposed God's will once the girl stopped breathing. Really, if it was "God's will" that the girl should die, then suck up and deal with it. (F@cking godforsaken hypocrites! You wanted her dead! You wanted her dead!)

And yet it's a sickness. And a little girl just gave everything for her parents sickness. Somehow, we're supposed to be compassionate. And all I can think right now is that they wanted her dead.

Is insanity a proper defense for these people? A few years in bedlam, pretend they're fine? And how do you keep them from relapse once they're out?

Even in the abstract, this God is without justice.

 

[greenberg]

On the US $, it says:

IN GOD WE TRUST

This pretty much says it all.

 

[Orleander]

A friend's husband grew up believing this. Both his Mom and his 1st wife died of cancer praying and praying it would go away. The families were praying and praying they would get better. But it was God's will that they suffer.

When my friend had their daughter he quit going to that church. He saw health care in a whole new light when it came to his baby girl.

These parents....well, I don't know. When can you decide if your child has health care? If your kid has been through round after round of chemo, can you decide enough is enough and let them die or do you need a Dr.'s permission?

 

[S.A.M.]

People make conscious choices that lead to other people's deaths every single day. What defines a "right" choice?

Would a parent who kept a child alive on life support systems only be making a right choice?

 

[(Q)]

Careful T, you might turn into one of those evil rabid atheists.

 

[(Q)]

People make conscious choices that lead to other people's deaths every single day. What defines a "right" choice?

If not a single person ever got well from prayer, praying to gods isn't the right choice. To make that choice instead of medical assistance is the equivalent of wanting that person to die.

Would a parent who kept a child alive on life support systems only be making a right choice?

As opposed to praying to a sky daddy?

 

[Avatar]

Poor girl... Those parents are insane.

 

[Myles]

On the US $, it says:

IN GOD WE TRUST

This pretty much says it all.

On the reverse it says in small print, " all others pay cash"

 

[Myles]

People make conscious choices that lead to other people's deaths every single day. What defines a "right" choice?

Would a parent who kept a child alive on life support systems only be making a right choice?

You sure have a knack for twisting things by intrioducing irrelevancies, If you want to discuss life -supprt systms, do so elsewhere. A right choice is one made by responsible people whose faculties are intact. To see a child's physical condition worsening should be evidence that prayer is not working, so alternative help should have been sought.

People will shout about freedom of belief but overlook the fact that a little girl had a right to live. The parents should be commited to an asylum where they can spend their time praying for deliverance. They might just learn something about the power of prayer.

 

[Avatar]

I think they qualify for criminal court - unintentional (or intentional) cause of death by inaction.

 

[S.A.M.]

You sure have a knack for twisting things by intrioducing irrelevancies, If you want to discuss life -supprt systms, do so elsewhere. A right choice is one made by responsible people whose faculties are intact. To see a child's physical condition worsening should be evidence that prayer is not working, so alternative help should have been sought.

People will shout about freedom of belief but overlook the fact that a little girl had a right to live. The parents should be commited to an asylum where they can spend their time praying for deliverance. They might just learn something about the power of prayer.

So you're saying the parents wanted their girl to die and such decisions should not be left to parents but should be decided by other people

 

[Avatar]

Such a decision can't be made because everyone has the right to live. If they made such a decision, then they are criminals, if that was unintentional, then it is criminal neglect, and also should be prosecuted.

 

[Myles]

So you're saying the parents wanted their girl to die and such decisions should not be left to parents but should be decided by other people

That's it exactly. Decisions of this kind should be made by those competent to do so; not by nutters.

 

[S.A.M.]

That's it exactly. Decisions of this kind should be made by those competent to do so; not by nutters.

Of course.

Thats exactly what many theists think about abortion and euthanasia too.

I'm guessing you support their position.

 

[greenberg]

Two things:

One-
There is a difference between acute and chronic conditions.
Western medicine is very good with acute conditions, but not so much with chronic ones. In chronic conditions, the patient can improve their quality of life less or more by maintaining a positive outlook, which can be done with prayer.

Two-
As far as infections, injuries and acute conditions go: if they are treated as if they were chronic conditions, things most likely won't work out fine.


While I support some so-called alternative approaches when it comes to dealing with chronic conditions, I do not think these approaches should be dominant when it comes to infections, injuries and acute conditions.

 

[Orleander]

Yeah, what if a parent takes their child to a chiropractor and the kid dies of spine cancer?

 

[wsionynw]

What if the parents can't be bothered to feed their child and just pray that God will do it for them?

If they knew their child was ill and did nothing, then they are guilty of neglect. Simple.

 

[Tiassa]

Notes Around

On the US $, it says:

IN GOD WE TRUST

This pretty much says it all.

A motto adopted to assuage our national conscience after the Civil War, brought to prominence in order to one-up the Communists; it is a sad justification for the sacrifice of our children in the twenty-first century.

• • •​

If your kid has been through round after round of chemo, can you decide enough is enough and let them die or do you need a Dr.'s permission?

Depends on the child. In granting a fourteen year old boy the right to die, Skagit County (Washington) Superior Court Judge John Meyer said,

"I don't believe Dennis' decision is the result of any coercion. He is mature and understands the consequences of his decision ....

.... I don't think Dennis is trying to commit suicide. This isn't something Dennis just came upon, and he believes with the transfusion he would be unclean and unworthy."

(Black)

Meyer's decision stunned the boy's parents. Dennis Lindberg was, at the time of his death, in the custody of his aunt, a Jehovah's Witness, and was influenced by her religion.

And even though I have personal reservations about Dennis Lindberg's death, I think it's a slightly different issue than what I consider the murder of Madeleine Neumann. Lindberg, at least, had the benefit of a diagnosis and the opportunity to choose his outcome. The Neumann parents refused their daughter even that.

• • •​

it's not a crime but requires attention

What sort of attention?

• • •​

People make conscious choices that lead to other people's deaths every single day. What defines a "right" choice?

Would a parent who kept a child alive on life support systems only be making a right choice?

An interesting counterpoint. What, other than your say-so, makes it significant?

So you're saying the parents wanted their girl to die and such decisions should not be left to parents but should be decided by other people.

• • •​

Thats exactly what many theists think about abortion and euthanasia too.

Now, perhaps you wish, as a woman, to subjugate your body to the will of men who believe in a God that would see you damned to hell for not believing in it, and that's your right to believe. But I do contest the comparison.

In the first place, are you asserting that there is no difference in what takes place inside your body and outside it? Perhaps you see no difference, but Madeleine Neumann was no longer physically attached to her mother and dependent on her mother's blood for survival. (There is an irony here, since the "child" in the womb is constantly receiving blood from another person, but we'll leave that aside for another time.)

Additionally, the current euthanasia argument involves a statement of a patient's will. Madeleine Neumann, as I have pointed out, had no opportunity to give a statement of her will regarding her diabetes.

Furthermore, I will assert that I would refuse my own daughter's right to do a number of things at eleven, including smoke pot and have sex. So it seems only natural that dying is on the list, too. Call me crazy. Thus, even if Madeleine Neumann had known of her diabetes and refused any treatment (e.g. insulin), it is within the purview of society's institutions (such as the courts and children's services) to question that decision.

• • •​

Careful T, you might turn into one of those evil rabid atheists.

Very little chance of that happening, (Q). Atheism is a disease I recovered from a while ago.

If not a single person ever got well from prayer, praying to gods isn't the right choice. To make that choice instead of medical assistance is the equivalent of wanting that person to die.

Functionally, at least, the father's behavior suggests that the religious outlook was an excuse sublimating the desire that the child should die. After all, they refused their daughter healthcare in order to be faithful to God, but once the girl stopped breathing, the father apparently put God's will aside long enough to attempt CPR.

One might think that perhaps they could have cast their faith aside at some other moment, one that would have actually helped this girl live.

Worse than delusional faith is such weak faith. Some are truly lost in their delusions. Others exploit their "religion" to excuse their poor conduct.

• • •​

If they knew their child was ill and did nothing, then they are guilty of neglect.

It's not clear to me that they actually knew. Because of the parents' views on doctors and medicine, Madeleine's condition (diabetes) was not diagnosed until after her death.
____________________

Notes:

Black, Cherie. "Boy dies of leukemia after refusing treatment for religious reasons". Seattle Post-Intelligencer. November 29, 2007. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/341458_leukemia29.html

 

[Myles]

Don't knock atheists. Some of us are capable of showing more compassion than the god-botherers.We are concerned about what is good here and now as opposed to some putative future existence which will be determined by some sort of god who , it is said, made, us as we are.

 

[S.A.M.]

What if the parents can't be bothered to feed their child and just pray that God will do it for them?

.

My cat used to do that all the time, abandon her kittens, because she could not be bothered.

What punishment should I give her?