Multiculturalism the known good

Mrs.Lucysnow

Valued Senior Member
I came across an interesting article in Al Jazeera written by an African-american academic who had married and moved to Norway. She writes an opinion piece on how Norwegians should approach multiculturalism after the deadly attacks this past month. In her lengthy piece she highlights Breivik's thoughts:

"Don't let multiculturalists define what racism is or isn't. Keeping an African against his [sic] will in your basement as a slave is racism. Loving your extended family/your ethnic group and fighting for ethnic and/or indigenous rights does not make you a racist; quite the opposite in fact. It makes you a civil rights activist." The underlying presumption of Breivik's thoughts is that White European interests, investments, and identity are what "politics" should protect and serve in a zero-sum game pitted against peoples of other racial and ethnic backgrounds. As it reflects a resurgent racialised European notion of nationalist politics, his perspective - about what racism is or isn't - remains unchallenged. Instead, many commentators attempt to change the subject away from race and towards youth, immigration, and the economy, as if those issues can be understood without consciousness of their racialised dimensions."

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/08/201182984256236502.html#disqus_thread


Then she floored me by asking the following questions:

"So how do we encourage Norwegians to become conscious of their unrecognised racial order and systems of privilege? How can white Norweigians build up the courage and awareness to become heroic "race traitors", disloyal to their own economic, social, and ideological investment in Whiteness?"


Has liberal academia become so drunk with their own PC kool-aid that they cannot see the problem with these problem solving questions?

Her assertion that white norwegians should become 'race traitors' disloyal to their own economic, social and ideological investment in 'whiteness' has probably caused a bunch of norwegians to throw down their newspapers and run straight to the nearest neo-nazi enclave.

Is the critique on multiculturalism so dead that its now assumed a de facto good thing for ANY people, regardless of race to undermine their own economic and social investment in their own basically homogenized nation?

Multiculturalism is being pushed down the throats of anyone who chooses to question it. Its not something anyone should think about but something everyone should simply accept as a known good.

The article goes on to highlight contradictions in Norwegian society as politicians call for unity and tolerance all the while rallying to limit immigration. How is limiting immigration and calling for tolerance a contradiction? No one has asked whether Norway is ready for the great multicultural experiment. No one has asked them whether they are prepared for the inevitable changes that mass immigration would bring. Perhaps its better to have that dialogue before asserting that immigration is a necessary good and then asking how you can fool people into being 'race traitors'.

I have to say that although Dr. Baker made some interesting statements and suggestions worthy of discussion, I was really disappointed by her apparent hidden agenda that somehow white people should abandon their own self-interests simply because Europeans have had a history of imperialism and colonialism. A way of saying, "You don't have a right to self-interest".

So what is it about multiculturalism that is naturally 'good', so good in fact that to question it turns one into a de facto racist?

*take the time to read the article because its ideologically pregnant*
 
I wish people would stop confusing culture and race, they aren't the same thing.
 
that is interesting Lucy . Spidey threw Me off . No it is a white mans world . I mean the system was devised by white culture. Not that major contributions by other people where not part of the mix , but the monetary economic system was propelled as a model by white conceptions I believe . Except where did they get it ? Did the templers find economic records in Jerusalem ? It is said we owe the concept of modern Banking to the Knights of the crusades cause they set up a banking system for the travelers to the Promise land . Consider that they were following the Bible as there business plan too . Did they just invent the system all on there own . Doubt that ? But this is speculation at best . One has to wonder were the system first came from . I don't think it came from Mayans or the Hopi. What were the first lending institutions ? That sounds like a Job For GOOGLE! O.K. Wiki with Goog The Commodity Exchange in 1309 was the first of the types that we model . It was in Europe . Whiteys I bet

Those words in Norwegian that stand for Diversity and Equality freaked Me out Lucy
Mangfold Og Likeverd . I just wonder about the roots of Likeverd . Did you know we get the word Equal from the Word Egal . French Yeah Equal was a french word by way of Egal . Frag will probably fix my simpleton word transformation into something more spectacular . If we are lucky .
 
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I wish people would stop confusing culture and race, they aren't the same thing.

Agreed but what do you mean within this context? Here race and culture is the crux of the multicultural debate. On the one hand you have an academic who insists that European supremacy is based on the concept of 'whiteness', not culture. On the other hand you have anti-immigration people who complain that the influx of other races threatens their native culture because they bring along their own. Race and culture are not the same thing but when there is a rise in racism and racist attacks the perpetrators do not stop to consider whether the person is culturally aligned with their own; in other words the baby is thrown out with the bathwater which is what makes it so difficult for the children of immigrants who caught between two cultures. Multiculturalism isn't just a drag for the indigenous people it can also be a drag for the foreigner.
 
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I am thinking in modern times it was about conversion to specific culture . That being Christianity in nature . The white man saw anyone not Christian as a heaven that needed converting. The taking of America was predicated on this . Make them bend to the will of the system of Christianity which long before this point included lending systems of monetary exchange. A way of wealth distribution native people had not a clue of or its ramification . If you know how to play poker against an opponent that don't you have an advantage . This I don't think we can dispute
 
I am thinking in modern times it was about conversion to specific culture . That being Christianity in nature . The white man saw anyone not Christian as a heaven that needed converting. The taking of America was predicated on this . Make them bend to the will of the system of Christianity which long before this point included lending systems of monetary exchange. A way of wealth distribution native people had not a clue of or its ramification . If you know how to play poker against an opponent that don't you have an advantage . This I don't think we can dispute

And it is now also. If it were not so then this so called 'islamification of europe' wouldn't be an issue. Zizek brought up an interesting point concerning Breivik, he said that Breivik called for a 'christian' europe while he himself is an agnostic secularist. Scandinavia is more secular than any other part of Europe, so what is it they are reacting to? They are reacting to the infiltration of otherness not the loss of christianity which they really don't give a toss about. You combat otherness by either making them like yourself (culturally, socially and ideologically) or you reject then eject them.
 
And it is now also. If it were not so then this so called 'islamification of europe' wouldn't be an issue. Zizek brought up an interesting point concerning Breivik, he said that Breivik called for a 'christian' europe while he himself is an agnostic secularist. Scandinavia is more secular than any other part of Europe, so what is it they are reacting to? They are reacting to the infiltration of otherness not the loss of christianity which they really don't give a toss about. You combat otherness by either making them like yourself (culturally, socially and ideologically) or you reject then eject them.

I think it is more like the White Man took Christianity as there culture by conversion in the early days of Constantine"s Mother . From there it was forced down the throats of Europeans. Then they took it an ran with it . Made it there own . Reinterpreted it and at the same time bent the local religions to its will by morphing the cultures together , Even the Spaniards in Meso America had to deal with this as the monks took the local customs and put them in writing yet inserted elements of Christianity for generations down the line to be fully converted by the similarities in God Worship. The point being to Christianity and even more so in the Protestant religions is the self reflection or the making it your own that we even see today by the actions of Lori7 right here on the S.F. Part of her cultural identity
 
I think it is more like the White Man took Christianity as there culture by conversion in the early days of Constantine"s Mother . From there it was forced down the throats of Europeans. Then they took it an ran with it . Made it there own . Reinterpreted it and at the same time bent the local religions to its will by morphing the cultures together , Even the Spaniards in Meso America had to deal with this as the monks took the local customs and put them in writing yet inserted elements of Christianity for generations down the line to be fully converted by the similarities in God Worship. The point being to Christianity and even more so in the Protestant religions is the self reflection or the making it your own that we even see today by the actions of Lori7 right here on the S.F. Part of her cultural identity

But this doesn't speak to the thread's topic. The debate of multiculturalism is now far removed from the early days of christianity. Europe is secular by practice, not christian or religious.
 
I think the soundest solution is education.

"Neo-Nazism" has a solution: Education.
"Islamification" has a solution: Education.
"Christianification" has a solution: Education.
... Racism, Bigotry, etc.... all of this can and should be addressed through the educational process.
 
But this doesn't speak to the thread's topic. The debate of multiculturalism is now far removed from the early days of christianity. Europe is secular by practice, not christian or religious.

See that is not quite true and is the crux of white culture . They think they are free but it is embedded into the culture in very profound ways . We take for granted where laws came from. The White man wrote law based on Christianity value systems . You think you can separate church from state when in fact all white man law is predicated on adoption of Christianity . It is like the person that said Longfellow's poem was his great quote when in fact it was just modified bible scripture reinterpreted for the times he lived . Verbatim was the quote . So to the point is it may not have the same connotations in your mind but the roots of the system are Christian and not secular . You got to ask your self why Muslims think Interest is evil . It is part of the culture that grew out of Christianity . It is the easy thing to pronounce We are not Christian but Secular . It is quite a different thing to erase it from the culture. Like Christmas in America . You can't do it . It is embedded into the culture and has imagery to powerful that has been dragged from the past. As an Individual you can but as a nation you can't and if the Nation was built on it then it is not going to happen until you dismantle the system . Deconstructing
 
I think the soundest solution is education.

"Neo-Nazism" has a solution: Education.
"Islamification" has a solution: Education.
"Christianification" has a solution: Education.
... Racism, Bigotry, etc.... all of this can and should be addressed through the educational process.

I don't think Europe is suffering from a lack of education. Germany was at its cultural height and its education system sound before the mustached Schicklgruber rose to supremacy. Education standards in Norway is fairly high and yet it hasn't addressed the problems of integration or fears over immigration. In those video's I posted you have a little boy going to school in a largely muslim neighborhood and he was isolated, bullied and suffered racism because he wasn't one of them, all because his family had this idea of joining the multi-ethnic revolution, they wanted to have him be with foreigners so that people could, you know, 'learn to get along'. It failed and they had to take him out of the school and place him in a school with relatively few foreigners.
 
That is what hippie movement was all about Lucy . You think the Rainbow people would fit in with 3rd world crowed better than Joe Christian white guy with a crew cut , god job and goes to church every week with his beautiful wife and 2 children . Blend with other cultures per-say. Hey what was up with that L.A. dude joining the rebels in Libya anyway . See that is what I am talking about . Back lashes. It is I believe connected to the riots in London. Social disorder do to law not being congruent with the tides of rebellion. Why ? Because they are predicated on White Man culture that steams from Christianity .

You take consumerism which is really a white man cultural thing in its roots , All part of expansionism pushed by conversion of other peoples to the system . The American Indian don't have this genetic disposition . They know instinctively not to over consume the environment. Except for maybe a few that have been indoctrinated to the white man way of over consumption ( Game hogs ) Even then it is an internal battle to resist I believe .
 
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See that is not quite true and is the crux of white culture . They think they are free but it is embedded into the culture in very profound ways . We take for granted where laws came from. The White man wrote law based on Christianity value systems . You think you can separate church from state when in fact all white man law is predicated on adoption of Christianity . It is like the person that said Longfellow's poem was his great quote when in fact it was just modified bible scripture reinterpreted for the times he lived . Verbatim was the quote . So to the point is it may not have the same connotations in your mind but the roots of the system are Christian and not secular . You got to ask your self why Muslims think Interest is evil . It is part of the culture that grew out of Christianity . It is the easy thing to pronounce We are not Christian but Secular . It is quite a different thing to erase it from the culture. Like Christmas in America . You can't do it . It is embedded into the culture and has imagery to powerful that has been dragged from the past. As an Individual you can but as a nation you can't and if the Nation was built on it then it is not going to happen until you dismantle the system . Deconstructing

But so what? All laws are not predicated on christian values. What about the values passed on from the greeks? Such as democracy for example. This isn't addressing the issue of multiculturalism at all. And as far as interest is concerned it was illegal in ancient isreal (against the law of moses) and usury was illegal under catholicism, just read the Merchant of Venice.

Please address the subject at hand since you are not really building a case for or against multiculturalism nor addressing its problems or solutions.

And what is 'white man culture' exactly? You have Western culture which includes a diversity of people. Europe has been historically caucasian, and there's nothing wrong with that. What did you expect Europe to exemplify? Asian culture or African? In your case what you would call 'yellow' and 'black'. You're not making any sense.
 
I don't think Europe is suffering from a lack of education. Germany was at its cultural height and its education system sound before the mustached Schicklgruber rose to supremacy. Education standards in Norway is fairly high and yet it hasn't addressed the problems of integration or fears over immigration. In those video's I posted you have a little boy going to school in a largely muslim neighborhood and he was isolated, bullied and suffered racism because he wasn't one of them, all because his family had this idea of joining the multi-ethnic revolution, they wanted to have him be with foreigners so that people could, you know, 'learn to get along'. It failed and they had to take him out of the school and place him in a school with relatively few foreigners.
Do German Muslims learn there is no evidence of the existence of Mohammad? I don't think that's the case. Do German Christians learn there is no evidence for the existence of Jesus? Do Germans know the word "Mohammad" was used Pre-Islam by Christians as a title for Jesus? As a matter of fact, it was such a common epitaph that we have Syrian coins with it on it. Do Muslims know the Crescent was a common polytheistic symbol? Do Christians know the Cross was a common polytheistic symbol. Do both Germans learn what is meant by religious intolerance? Are they forced to play sports where members of religions are equally distributed? Have they banned religious based schools from the public sphere?


If not, and that is the case, they haven't even begun to be properly educated.


In a properly run state there would be no majority Muslim or Christian schools. Bullying would be severely dealt with - say the parents pay a find of $1000 each time their child is caught bullying. I promise you, that behavior will end right quick. Especially when that kid has to team up with the kid he is bullying - for the rest of his educational experience (if need be).
 
Do German Muslims learn there is no evidence of the existence of Mohammad? I don't think that's the case. Do German Christians learn there is no evidence for the existence of Jesus? Do Germans know the word "Mohammad" was used Pre-Islam by Christians as a title for Jesus? As a matter of fact, it was such a common epitaph that we have Syrian coins with it on it. Do Muslims know the Crescent was a common polytheistic symbol? Do Christians know the Cross was a common polytheistic symbol. Do both Germans learn what is meant by religious intolerance? Are they forced to play sports where members of religions are equally distributed? Have they banned religious based schools from the public sphere?


If not, and that is the case, they haven't even begun to be properly educated.


In a properly run state there would be no majority Muslim or Christian schools. Bullying would be severely dealt with - say the parents pay a find of $1000 each time their child is caught bullying. I promise you, that behavior will end right quick. Especially when that kid has to team up with the kid he is bullying - for the rest of his educational experience (if need be).

But isn't this the dilemma of a society that prides itself on liberty and individual freedoms? How do you teach that which a group will not allow to be taught? We cannot say that Muslims should be taught that there is no mohammed when they are likely to react with hostility, the same hostility that christians and jews would muster if they were similarly challenged. What would you do? Ban religious education and private schools? What would that make of 'liberal' ideals then? And when you eradicate the 'god' matter what makes you believe it would eradicate all other cultural markers and differentiation's? What you suggest is to force an anti-religious stance on what is an already largely secular irreligious society. In other words why is there this problem of integration and multiculturalism in a society where they are not even religious? In Norway only 32% of the population state they believe in a god!

The school the boy went to was not a religious school but a state school, it was the neighborhood that was majority muslim, black and middle-eastern with very few white norwegians, this is why he was bullied. Fines may have stopped bullying but it wouldn't have ended his isolation, you cannot force people to be inclusive nor can you force friendships, in other words he would have still been ignored and not invited to birthday parties or allowed into the homes or games of his class mates.
 
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But so what? All laws are not predicated on christian values. What about the values passed on from the greeks? Such as democracy for example. This isn't addressing the issue of multiculturalism at all. And as far as interest is concerned it was illegal in ancient isreal (against the law of moses) and usury was illegal under catholicism, just read the Merchant of Venice.

Please address the subject at hand since you are not really building a case for or against multiculturalism nor addressing its problems or solutions.

And what is 'white man culture' exactly? You have Western culture which includes a diversity of people. Europe has been historically caucasian, and there's nothing wrong with that. What did you expect Europe to exemplify? Asian culture or African? In your case what you would call 'yellow' and 'black'. You're not making any sense.

O.K. O.K. Lucy take my pound of flesh why don't you . You can freely have it . Law is built layer upon layer of past laws . Romans turned to Christians and Christians turned into Europeans and Europeans turned to Americans and that is all I will say about the past . Except the past follows you and haunts you . Now I am done

Bullies don't know color . You take any kid and put them out of there own culture and there will be future shock . Tough guys bullies in school . It is like putting a yellow light on chickens . A balance of culture might help but could cause gang situations were the kids would segregate them selves like prison. You could do like the Early Settlers in America were they exchanged kids . I don't think that was very humane though . Tolerance of other cultures is good too . We do a good job here in Montana , but then again there is some back lash happening . We have a Multicultural department at the University and all the wonderful progressives work to that end by education from kindergarten on . It is a dominating theme in a child's life . Most of it is geared to Native American culture because of the bigotry surrounding the locality . So what happens . They are introduced to other cultures at a young age , Islam is the hot subject and Me son did a report on Sheria law . Also learned some Arabic . Did I get all excited ? No . We also work hard on mitigating bullying . It is the number one objective for a child to feel safe at school . Parents in direct contributions to the better well being of our children . Boarding School is just not something in my vocabulary anyway . To detached . To take an interest in the school activities is more to my liking , not to drop and run
 
What you need is more parties. Y'know, people visiting each other and eating together. Best bit of multiculturalism. Lack of socialising is one of the major issues that divides people. Previously people used church fetes and religious occasions to bridge barriers - sending food at festivals or just being "neighborly". What do they do now?
 
O.K. O.K. Lucy take my pound of flesh why don't you . You can freely have it . Law is built layer upon layer of past laws . Romans turned to Christians and Christians turned into Europeans and Europeans turned to Americans and that is all I will say about the past . Except the past follows you and haunts you . Now I am done

Bullies don't know color . You take any kid and put them out of there own culture and there will be future shock . Tough guys bullies in school . It is like putting a yellow light on chickens . A balance of culture might help but could cause gang situations were the kids would segregate them selves like prison. You could do like the Early Settlers in America were they exchanged kids . I don't think that was very humane though . Tolerance of other cultures is good too . We do a good job here in Montana , but then again there is some back lash happening . We have a Multicultural department at the University and all the wonderful progressives work to that end by education from kindergarten on . It is a dominating theme in a child's life . Most of it is geared to Native American culture because of the bigotry surrounding the locality . So what happens . They are introduced to other cultures at a young age , Islam is the hot subject and Me son did a report on Sheria law . Also learned some Arabic . Did I get all excited ? No . We also work hard on mitigating bullying . It is the number one objective for a child to feel safe at school . Parents in direct contributions to the better well being of our children . Boarding School is just not something in my vocabulary anyway . To detached . To take an interest in the school activities is more to my liking , not to drop and run

So which culture should Europeans base their values on now? African or Asian?

By the way these progressive programs have been implemented but they do not seem to be working. People are still balking at the influx of immigrants and muslims and other ethnic groups still isolate themselves in ghettos. So how exactly is this a solution? If it had worked Germany's Angela Merkel wouldn't have said:

"We kidded ourselves for a while that they wouldn't stay, but that's not the reality," referring to the gastarbeiters, or guest workers, who arrived in Germany to fill a labour shortage during the economic boom of the 1960s.

"Of course the tendency had been to say, 'let's adopt the multicultural concept and live happily side by side, and be happy to be living with each other'. But this concept has failed, and failed utterly."
 
What you need is more parties. Y'know, people visiting each other and eating together. Best bit of multiculturalism. Lack of socialising is one of the major issues that divides people. Previously people used church fetes and religious occasions to bridge barriers - sending food at festivals or just being "neighborly". What do they do now?

Yeah but how? Look at those videos where you have this kid who's in an ethnic community attending a predominantly ethnic school because his progressive parents hoped to introduce their child to multiculturalism and what they got was an isolated kid who was not accepted because he wasn't muslim, they eventually had to take him out and put him in a school with very few foreigners. Norwegians are not religious but for those who are, how would they get muslims to go to a church function?

What do you think of this academics questions:


"So how do we encourage Norwegians to become conscious of their unrecognised racial order and systems of privilege? How can white Norweigians build up the courage and awareness to become heroic "race traitors", disloyal to their own economic, social, and ideological investment in Whiteness?"


I think its liberal academics such as Dr. Baker who is part of the problem. I mean, seriously? Does she understand what she is asking?
 
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