MPs to vote on abortion limit cut

should they lower the time limit for abortions from 24 to 20 weeks?

  • Yes

    Votes: 2 15.4%
  • No

    Votes: 3 23.1%
  • It should be left to mum and dad?

    Votes: 1 7.7%
  • It should be left down to the mother only?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 24 weeks is just fine

    Votes: 2 15.4%
  • Abortion is wrong and should be only be used in emergencies

    Votes: 5 38.5%
  • some other option, say in thread

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    13
  • Poll closed .
Women trashing women?

Orleander said:

Having to pay child support for an unwanted baby is NOT the same as rape.

I find it rather interesting, and just a little bit disingenuous, that you're trying to focus on the outcome. Indeed, fraudulent pretenses appear to be legal when it comes to sexual intercourse. In other words, people can lie their way into the sack. But I think you're doing women in general a disservice with the way you're treating the point. All you're proving is that women aren't to be trusted, and aside from the fact that women are human and humans aren't to be trusted, that's a heap of shit. There is an ethical difference, at least, between taking off your wedding ring and lying to a man in order to exploit a baby as a means of extortion. No, it's not rape. But all you're proving with your argument is that women are especially untrustworthy, and should be avoided.

• • •​

Lucifer's Angel said:

rape is a violent nasty, evil, thing to do and to compare to sabotageing birth control to rape is also twisted and sick, but not rape

I had a neighbor once—I've discussed him before—who was a complete moron. All women, to him, are bitches and cunts. It's not exactly his fault, since he once went through a windshield at high speed and headfirst into a brick wall. But still, after a while it's just more than I can take. One of the infamous episodes I've recalled is when he was telling me about this time that a woman "for no reason" threw a stone through his window. While his senile father was home.

"What kind of person does that?" he asked.

Well, when you rape someone—regardless of whether your senile father is home—there's a good possibility that they're going to put a rock through your window. And when you rape a hooker, you ought to count yourself lucky if a stone through the window is all you get.

Except it isn't really rape, is it? That the reason she consented to have sex was fraudulent doesn't count, does it?

He didn't like the way she fucked. He says he didn't get off. As I see it, that's his problem. Obviously, he disagreed. He threw the hooker out without paying her.

"You fucked her for two hours and didn't pay her?" I asked incredulously.

Good to know you're looking out for your sisters.

what if the couple were together for years, and the man has always said, "we'll have a baby somtime?" and he always says now isnt the right time? and the woman is seeing her baby clock reduce from day to day, should she not have kids because he's being selfish?

Her "baby clock"? He is being selfish? Fine. So what?

Weren't you complaining just the other day about people having children as a fashion statement?

The solution is that she should leave the man and find another. If it's so important to her to have a baby, and he's not falling into line like a properly-whipped puppy should, she should ditch him and move on.

Oh, does divorce make that a messy process? Too freakin' bad. She shouldn't have married him, then.

A baby should be wanted. By both its parents. That unplanned pregnancies occur is a matter of myopia, and even stupidity. But fraud?

Next time I hear a guy going on about how you shouldn't trust the bitches, what the hell am I supposed to say? I'll tell you what I'll say: I'll forget all about you and Orleander, and defend my fellow human beings' expectation of respect.

You might prefer misogyny—maybe it gets you off?—but I'm sick of it.
 
I apologise tiassa, your right.

the fact that i find orleanders attitude that men are only there to provide sperm when women want a child and then pay for it regardless of there own feelings on the matter highly offencive

Orleander you do realise that if you have sex with your husband while he is alseep that IS rape dont you. They recently changed the laws so that if your partner is drunk or asleep its rape.
 
Orleander you do realise that if you have sex with your husband while he is alseep that IS rape dont you. They recently changed the laws so that if your partner is drunk or asleep its rape.

No it's not. At least, not in the States (and rape laws in the industrialized world are pretty standard). one of the following things have to be present (and proven) for it to be rape:
  • disparity of mental capacity (mentally ill, retarded, under the age of consent)
  • diminished physical ability (physically handicapped, drugged)
  • forced penetration (in his case: anal or oral penetration)

Not only would his task at proving rape be insurmountable [queue: male giggling "yeah, she raped him in his sleep! I totally wish dude! High Five!"], but I highly doubt that a man could remain asleep through standard intercourse and I don't believe for a second that he would consider it as such if his wife mounted him while he was sleeping.

I'd like to see it backed up with something verifiable that a wife having sex with her drunk husband is now considered rape. First off, if he were drunk enough to loose mental capacity, I find it hard to believe that he'd overcome the physically incapacitating effects of alcohol (see: wisky dick).

~String
 
String that might be the case in the states but not in australia. The laws were recenly changed to relfect the fact that if you are drunk, unconious or asleep you cant concent therefore its rape no matter wether the person is your regular partner or not. This was because of some well publisised cases where sleeping girls were raped, not to mention getting a girl or guy drunk to have sex with them or druging them into unconiousness. These changes were made at the same time the new drink spiking laws came into effect making THAT a specific offence
 
String that might be the case in the states but not in australia. The laws were recenly changed to relfect the fact that if you are drunk, unconious or asleep you cant concent therefore its rape no matter wether the person is your regular partner or not. This was because of some well publisised cases where sleeping girls were raped, not to mention getting a girl or guy drunk to have sex with them or druging them into unconiousness. These changes were made at the same time the new drink spiking laws came into effect making THAT a specific offence

So, anytime a sober wife has sex with an intoxicated husband, it's rape. Show me the law, and then show me any case where a WIFE was prosecuted for having sex with her inebriated husband. I doubt you'll be able to find the latter.

Besides, you attempted to say that ORLEANDER was raping her husband (both of whom live in the USA) based upon a law which you claim was passed in a totally different country. Sorry, that doesn't pass the smell test.

~String
 
I apologise tiassa, your right.

the fact that i find orleanders attitude that men are only there to provide sperm when women want a child and then pay for it regardless of there own feelings on the matter highly offencive

Orleander you do realise that if you have sex with your husband while he is alseep that IS rape dont you. They recently changed the laws so that if your partner is drunk or asleep its rape.

Err Asguard, rape is the sexual act where there is no consent from one party. Having a hole poked through your condom without your knowledge is not rape. Being forced by the court to pay child support for a child you did not want, is not rape. While it may feel like an assault upon your senses and your wallet, it is not rape.
 
the laws are there, i dont belive they have been used yet (the same for a case of where a wife or partner is drunk) but they DO give another way for a vindictive partner to get revenge on there partner
 
bells its breach of concent. As doctors have been procuicuted for having concent for one procidure and performing another i would be interesed to see the laws used to protect a partner who has stated they dont wish to have kids and has this violated delibratly.

You would have to prove it was a delibrate act of course rather than just a failure of the condoms but i havent seen any case law that would prohibit this sort of proicution
 
bells its breach of concent. As doctors have been procuicuted for having concent for one procidure and performing another i would be interesed to see the laws used to protect a partner who has stated they dont wish to have kids and has this violated delibratly.

You would have to prove it was a delibrate act of course rather than just a failure of the condoms but i havent seen any case law that would prohibit this sort of proicution

You need to understand the definition of rape. I can assure you, while you may not have consented to her falling pregnant, and you had not consented to her tampering with the condom, it is still not rape.

As you said yourself, proving it was a deliberate act would be nearly impossible. Tell me, do you keep all the used condoms you go through just in case, so that if you need to prove that they were tampered with, you'd be able to provide the evidence?

If a partner does not wish to father children, he should take care of his own contraception methods (ie. make sure the condoms are kept out of her reach, make sure to always wear a condom even if she says she's on the pill or using other forms of contraception, always dispose of the condom himself, use spermicide, etc).

Then again, if you trust your partner, and she trusts you, you shouldn't have anything to worry about.:)
 
Bells that is kind of silly. I know you have said that you thought you were infertile and your husband didnt want kids so did he trust you when you said you were infertile?
If the two of you still used contriception did he hide it "just in case" you were a lying nutcase or did he leave it where it was handy when you needed it?

Seriously bells read orleanders post and tell me why you think her atitude SHOULDNT be illegal?
 
A further point bells, do you rember the court decision about the women wishing IVF with her dead husbands frozen embros (I THINK it was embrios rather than frozen sperm). The courts ruled that the sperm from a man and the embrios created from that sperm remain the propertie of BOTH people who produced them (in the case of the embrio) and the sperm remains the sole propertie of the male. In light of this court decision (that she couldnt use her dead husbands ofspring without his written concent in a will) what should the penelty be for a women who obtains sperm by deciet?

Maybe your right and it shouldnt be concidered sexual assult (though as i said my opinion IS that i would feel as violated as if i was raped) but what charges and penelty SHOULD that sort of behavor result in?

Or do you think its ethical to overrule a partners decision?
 
Bells that is kind of silly. I know you have said that you thought you were infertile and your husband didnt want kids so did he trust you when you said you were infertile?
If the two of you still used contriception did he hide it "just in case" you were a lying nutcase or did he leave it where it was handy when you needed it?

Seriously bells read orleanders post and tell me why you think her atitude SHOULDNT be illegal?

What? Advocating some form of personal responsibility?

Come on Asguard, aren't you blowing this a bit out of proportion? You are basically saying that a woman pricking holes in a condom is akin to rape? To rape? And you're surprised she reacted as she did?:bugeye:

What do you think about her attitude should be made illegal?

As for my husband and myself, why should he think I was lying? I didn't want children back then either. And we still used protection regardless. But condoms are never 100% safe. If you do not trust someone enough to leave your condoms within his or her reach, maybe you should reconsider who the hell you're sleeping with. If you don't trust someone that much, make sure you take care of your end of the bargain when it comes down to protection. You should anyway.

But to say that a woman stealing a guy's sperm or using deception with actions such as pricking holes in condoms or failing to take the pill (etc) is like rape? Come on Asguard, you should know better than that.

A further point bells, do you rember the court decision about the women wishing IVF with her dead husbands frozen embros (I THINK it was embrios rather than frozen sperm). The courts ruled that the sperm from a man and the embrios created from that sperm remain the propertie of BOTH people who produced them (in the case of the embrio) and the sperm remains the sole propertie of the male. In light of this court decision (that she couldnt use her dead husbands ofspring without his written concent in a will) what should the penelty be for a women who obtains sperm by deciet?
If I remember correctly, the husband was dead and his sperm had been frozen. His parents blocked or counted her when she tried to access the sperm for her to have his child. I personally think their actions was absolutely despicable to be honest. He had his sperm frozen so that he and his wife could have a child. Just because he died before they were able to, his parents should not have blocked her from carrying out his wishes.

As for women who obtain sperm by deceit? No, I do not think it is like rape. Nor should the male who fathered the child unintentionally be allowed to deny his paternity to the child. How can I put this.. Think of the child and what that could do to the him/her. Should he have to pay child support in such an instance? That should be voluntary, if it can be proven that she did somehow steal his sperm or acquired it via deceit. But again, aside for his feelings for the mother, there is still a child at stake and maybe he should think past his wallet and consider what his own actions and reactions could do to a small child who had no say in the matter.
 
See i dont belive that the child should be punished for the mother being a bitch. Maybe automatic loss of all custordy rights and 100 % of her income as child surport to the father might be a decent punishment but that could just be the same vindictive side of me that suggested we put electronic shockers on the waitresses who didnt want to pick up the food when we called last night:p

As for the case in question i compleatly agree, i didnt like the courts decision either (i was using it a an example of case law which surported the position that males retain the rights there own sperm)

And no i compleatly realise that birth control failes, this however has nothing to do with delibrate sabotase (actually i herd of a doctor sued by the parents of a child because he fucked up a vesectomie, and they won just out of interest). The difference bettween failure of birth control and delibrate sabotase is the difference between negligence and the difference between a guenuine acident and as hard to prove. Though i did hear of a case where the women was telling her husband she was taking the pill and was really taking fertility drugs and the doctors could do nothing because they were fibidan from acting based on medical confidance laws. I herd this in the debate going around a debate about changing the medical confidence laws to force a partner to be involved in sterilation decisions (ie so you couldnt just have a hystroectomie or a vecetomie without your partner knowing)

Bells i dont think all women would be like this anymore than i accept the agument that all guys are wife bashers. I would suggest the same percentage of either sex can be selfish and for want of a better word "evil".

Oh and as for your opinion that its in no way equivlant to rape. You dont think knowing that was how your child was concived wouldnt remind you EVERY SINGLE DAY about how your partner vilolated your rights to chose? You dont think that wouldnt lead to various mental health issues, and potentual hatred of the child ect?

How is this any different from a women who was raped while asleep? Not really that different actually, (ignoring any physical damage of course). Then there are the added risks of STD's ect if for interest she had something you didnt (be that aids or just herpies).

Lastly the child is going to be the main one to suffer because at the very least they are going to have to grow with a father who will probably always resent the child and a father who will HATE the mother. Maybe the best way to deal with a situation like this would be to put the decision of abortion in the hands of the guy rather than the normal way around.

Lastly the long term effects of rape are mainly pycological (assuming that STD's arent passed on or long term damage caused), relating to trust issues, depression and feelings of violation. Can you honestly say that a guy wouldnt feel the same way knowing this and then being screwed by the courts afterwards? (probably losing half his posetions in the devorce and then being forced to pay for a child he never wanted). How would YOU feel?

Oh one last further note, im not trying to suggest this regually happens (as i said this debate came out of something i herd on the radio) but i dont belive the rarity of an action which causes pain to anyone should mean its irrelivant. After all murder is quite rare in australia but we dont suggest that because its rare it shouldnt be illegal
 
Asguard, your opinion about it being akin to rape is your own. Personally, I don't view having to pay child support for an unwanted child or having to put up with said unwanted child as being in any way similar to a sexual assault upon an individual which can and does result in physical and psychological injuries, scarring, possible contraction of STD's, possible death, and all the rest of the horrors that go hand in hand with a sexual assault and a rape. For you to even compare the two is an insult to every single woman, man and child who has ever been unfortunate enough to be the victims of sexual assault, abuse and rape.

Edit:

I do hope that if you are ever unlucky enough to have to respond to a rape or sexual assault call in your course of employment that you never express such opinions to the victim.
 
Yes your right there there are risks of STD's ect associated with rape. There are also with this as well BTW (take the gay guy who was using this method to pass on aids to all his partners). As for the psycological damage i dont think they are as trivial as you seem to belive. For starters how could you every trust ANYONE again? I certianly wouldnt

Oh and BTW i treat people as inderviduals thank you very much. Do you honestly think i would say to someone who had there drink spiked "at least you wernt raped", or someone who was raped in there sleep "at least they didnt torcher you while you were awake"

Actually i find your comment rather insulting thank you very much.
 
Yes your right there there are risks of STD's ect associated with rape. There are also with this as well BTW (take the gay guy who was using this method to pass on aids to all his partners). As for the psycological damage i dont think they are as trivial as you seem to belive. For starters how could you every trust ANYONE again? I certianly wouldnt

Oh and BTW i treat people as inderviduals thank you very much. Do you honestly think i would say to someone who had there drink spiked "at least you wernt raped", or someone who was raped in there sleep "at least they didnt torcher you while you were awake"

Actually i find your comment rather insulting thank you very much.

Really?

So now you understand how I feel about being told that a guy who has to fork out some of his cash every fortnight to support a child he doesn't want suffered and suffers the same kind of pain that a survivor of a sexual abuse, assault or rape happens to have suffered and suffers. That his having to pay for an unwanted child is akin to a rape, sexual assault or sexual abuse. Think about it for a few seconds and you might just understand where I am coming from.
 
Back
Top