Mosques takenover by hardliners
- Thread starter Atom
- Start date
Again, the topic is not William Muir, the topic is fundamentalist Muslims. Many fundamentalist Imams read the same material that William Muir has read. When they read it they think it's all true. So we should take a look at the literature that Muslims fundamentalist Imam's read and see what it says.
Take for example the Mohammad's order to have the innocent singing girl girl murdered. Whether Mohammad murdered her personally, had someone do, didn't do it and it's bull shit or Mohammad is a factious composite character that never really existed - is all besides the point. The point is we should find out what these fundamentalist Muslims are reading and then debate it ourselves. Which I tried to do with you SAM, but for fear that maybe Mohammad really did cause the singing girls murder you were to worried what the all seeing God would think if you agreed it was an evil immoral act and so round and round we went. Just like now.
While we both know that the Qur'an has been altered over the centuries, that it contains foreign non-Arabic words and that it is not "perfect" these crazy Imams think it is. So again, we need to take a look at everything they are reading and debate it.
The only way to combat fundamentalist Muslims is by educating the general population. Hell, I know Muslims who think the Qur'an was handed to Mohammad from Allah! They have no idea that it was written by many unknown people, rewritten by some other unknown people and then finally canonized on some day at some time in some year by some people all of which no one has the faintest idea who what where and when.
Funny how uneducated people are isn't it?
Michael
Take for example the Mohammad's order to have the innocent singing girl girl murdered. Whether Mohammad murdered her personally, had someone do, didn't do it and it's bull shit or Mohammad is a factious composite character that never really existed - is all besides the point. The point is we should find out what these fundamentalist Muslims are reading and then debate it ourselves. Which I tried to do with you SAM, but for fear that maybe Mohammad really did cause the singing girls murder you were to worried what the all seeing God would think if you agreed it was an evil immoral act and so round and round we went. Just like now.
While we both know that the Qur'an has been altered over the centuries, that it contains foreign non-Arabic words and that it is not "perfect" these crazy Imams think it is. So again, we need to take a look at everything they are reading and debate it.
The only way to combat fundamentalist Muslims is by educating the general population. Hell, I know Muslims who think the Qur'an was handed to Mohammad from Allah! They have no idea that it was written by many unknown people, rewritten by some other unknown people and then finally canonized on some day at some time in some year by some people all of which no one has the faintest idea who what where and when.
Funny how uneducated people are isn't it?
Michael
Since you are so educated, please provide concrete irrefutable proof of your statements.
maybe I would accept them?
First they'd have to pass the obvious test of not being silly
like winged fairy creatures or moons splitting into two peaces. Nest, take a look at how they fit with contemporary sources, common historical trends, who wrote them, why they were written down, etc...
Take the theory of Alexander being a Muslim as some Muslims suggest - as they think it is stated in the magical book called the Qur'an. We needn't wonder if Alexander was a Muslim. He wasn't. So we look to see who else fits the profile - well, no one matches as Alexander does. Next we look to see if Alexander was worshiped as a God - why yes, Alexander was considered a God. Now we start to investigate how the myth of a God like Alexander (no he wasn't a "real" God or Prophet) got incorporated into the Qur'an.
Making any sense?
Michael
Which statement.
All of them in that quote. Lets hear some more "historical sources" second, third, fiftieth hand though they are. I'm curious to see how a random quote reaches William Muir intact after a thousand years but a Qirat does not.
Here are some from wiki for you:
1. Milani A. Lost Wisdom. 2004 ISBN 0934211906 p.15
2. Mohammad Mohammadi Malayeri, Tarikh-i Farhang-i Iran (Iran's Cultural History). 4 volumes. Tehran. 1982.
3. ʻAbd al-Ḥusayn Zarrīnʹkūb (1379 (2000)). Dū qarn-i sukūt : sarguz̲asht-i ḥavādis̲ va awz̤āʻ-i tārīkhī dar dū qarn-i avval-i Islām (Two Centuries of Silence). Tihrān: Sukhan. OCLC 46632917, ISBN 964-5983-33-6.
4. a b Lewis, Bernard. Iran in history. Tel Aviv University. Retrieved on 2007-04-03.
5. The Events of the Seventh Year of Migration. Ahlul Bayt Digital Islamic Library Project. Retrieved on 2007-04-03.
6. Leone Caetani, Annali dell' Islam, vol. 4, p. 74
7. Leone Caetani, Annali dell' Islam, vol. 2, chapter 1, paragraph 45-46
8. Tabaqat-i Kubra, vol. I, page 360; Tarikh-i Tabari, vol. II, pp. 295, 296; Tarikh-i Kamil, vol. II, page 81 and Biharul Anwar, vol. XX, page 389
9. Iran. Encyclopædia Britannica.
10. Bashear 1997, p. 117.
11. Frye, R.N (1975). The Golden Age of Persia. ISBN 1-84212-011-5.
12. Tabari. Series I. pp. 2778–9.
13. What is Persian?. The center for Persian studies.
14. Bashear, Suliman — Arabs and Others in Early Islam, Darwin Press, 1997
15. Daniel, Elton — The History of Iran, Greenwood Press, 2001
16. Donner, Fred — The Early Islamic Conquests, Princeton, 1981
17. M. Ismail Marcinkowski, Persian Historiography and Geography: Bertold Spuler on Major Works Produced in Iran, the Caucasus, Central Asia, India and Early Ottoman Turkey, with a foreword by Professor Clifford Edmund Bosworth, member of the British Academy, Singapore: Pustaka Nasional, 2003, ISBN 9971-77-488-7.
18. Sicker, Martin — The Islamic World in Ascendancy: From the Arab Conquests to the Siege of Vienna, Praeger, 2000
19. Zarrin’kub, Abd al-Husayn — Ruzgaran : tarikh-i Iran az aghz ta saqut saltnat Pahlvi, Sukhan, 1999. ISBN 964-6961-11-8
20. Arab Conquest of Iran, pp. 203–10, Encyclopaedia Iranica.
1. Milani A. Lost Wisdom. 2004 ISBN 0934211906 p.15
2. Mohammad Mohammadi Malayeri, Tarikh-i Farhang-i Iran (Iran's Cultural History). 4 volumes. Tehran. 1982.
3. ʻAbd al-Ḥusayn Zarrīnʹkūb (1379 (2000)). Dū qarn-i sukūt : sarguz̲asht-i ḥavādis̲ va awz̤āʻ-i tārīkhī dar dū qarn-i avval-i Islām (Two Centuries of Silence). Tihrān: Sukhan. OCLC 46632917, ISBN 964-5983-33-6.
4. a b Lewis, Bernard. Iran in history. Tel Aviv University. Retrieved on 2007-04-03.
5. The Events of the Seventh Year of Migration. Ahlul Bayt Digital Islamic Library Project. Retrieved on 2007-04-03.
6. Leone Caetani, Annali dell' Islam, vol. 4, p. 74
7. Leone Caetani, Annali dell' Islam, vol. 2, chapter 1, paragraph 45-46
8. Tabaqat-i Kubra, vol. I, page 360; Tarikh-i Tabari, vol. II, pp. 295, 296; Tarikh-i Kamil, vol. II, page 81 and Biharul Anwar, vol. XX, page 389
9. Iran. Encyclopædia Britannica.
10. Bashear 1997, p. 117.
11. Frye, R.N (1975). The Golden Age of Persia. ISBN 1-84212-011-5.
12. Tabari. Series I. pp. 2778–9.
13. What is Persian?. The center for Persian studies.
14. Bashear, Suliman — Arabs and Others in Early Islam, Darwin Press, 1997
15. Daniel, Elton — The History of Iran, Greenwood Press, 2001
16. Donner, Fred — The Early Islamic Conquests, Princeton, 1981
17. M. Ismail Marcinkowski, Persian Historiography and Geography: Bertold Spuler on Major Works Produced in Iran, the Caucasus, Central Asia, India and Early Ottoman Turkey, with a foreword by Professor Clifford Edmund Bosworth, member of the British Academy, Singapore: Pustaka Nasional, 2003, ISBN 9971-77-488-7.
18. Sicker, Martin — The Islamic World in Ascendancy: From the Arab Conquests to the Siege of Vienna, Praeger, 2000
19. Zarrin’kub, Abd al-Husayn — Ruzgaran : tarikh-i Iran az aghz ta saqut saltnat Pahlvi, Sukhan, 1999. ISBN 964-6961-11-8
20. Arab Conquest of Iran, pp. 203–10, Encyclopaedia Iranica.
As far as the sculpture is concerned. "Laocoön and His Sons" was completed 1400 EARLIER. Based on this factual evidence it's my opinion that the people in the ME living during what you call an "Islamic" Golden Age, hadn't even reached the heights the Greeks had reached nearly 1.5 THOUSAND years earlier.
There is no argument that such is the case. The only question now is WHY?
Well SAM, Why?
Michael
There is no argument that such is the case. The only question now is WHY?
Well SAM, Why?
Michael
Another assertion of yours is that not only was ISLAM responsible for the Middle Eastern/Arab Golden Age but that it was ALSO directly responsible for the European REBIRTH. Notice the word REBIRTH. Now go to the above marble sculpture - making any connections? That without Islam Europeans would have never .. .. .. .. reached to their formal glory? Are you looking at the two sculptures SAM?
Somehow this Master Italian Painting was influenced by the Masterful Painters of the Middle East? HOW? The styles are completely different on so many levels it'd take pages to list and describe them all.
I'm sorry SAM if that ruffles your feathers but that's reality so you'll have to live with it. No different than Christians coming to terms with the FACT there iis no contemporary evidence for Jesus you will have to also rethink your ideas of Islamic history if you want to reconcile reality with rationality. If not theres more than enough sand to bury the head in.
I much prefer to live here in the real world,
Michael
Somehow this Master Italian Painting was influenced by the Masterful Painters of the Middle East? HOW? The styles are completely different on so many levels it'd take pages to list and describe them all.
I'm sorry SAM if that ruffles your feathers but that's reality so you'll have to live with it. No different than Christians coming to terms with the FACT there iis no contemporary evidence for Jesus you will have to also rethink your ideas of Islamic history if you want to reconcile reality with rationality. If not theres more than enough sand to bury the head in.
I much prefer to live here in the real world,
Michael
Last edited:
Will Abdullah Yusuf Ali's The Meaning of the Holy Qur'an do?Oh so Alexander is in the Quran?
Who exactly was it that said Dhu'l Qurnain may be Alexander, do you know?
"This is the first of the three episodes here mentioned, his expedition to the west, 'reaching the setting of the sun', does not mean the extreme west, for there is no such thing. West and East are relative terms. It means a western expedition terminated by 'a spring of murky water.' this has puzzled commentators ,and they have understood this to mean a dark, temestuous sea if Zul-Qarnain is Alexander the Great, the reference is easily understood to be to Lychnitis (now Ochrida), west of Macedonia. It is fed entirely by underground springs in a limestone region, where the water is never very clear" A. Yusuf Ali's commentary footnote 2430.
Here is a perfect example of how thinking of an "Islamic" Golden Age is screwing up not only the people in the Middle Easts perception of themselves but the Worlds perception of them as well.
You may not realize it now but someday it might click.
Khalili Collection
Notice it says Spanish Art not Catholic Art, Swedish Art not Protestant Art, Japanese Art not Shinto Art or Buddhist Art - but then there's the odd ball - Islamic Art.
Now, is it fine to have a subcategory of Islamic Art, yes it is. A subcategory of Shinto Art - yes that's great.
See the difference?
Michael
PS: If someone would like to write to the Khalili Trust and explain how its oxymoronic to promote multicultural equality for the world and to encourage Muslims likewise - and then to turn around single out "Islam" from the rest of Worlds Art collections, that would be great. They probably don't even notice it themselves its so subconsciously subversive.
You may not realize it now but someday it might click.
Khalili Collection
Notice it says Spanish Art not Catholic Art, Swedish Art not Protestant Art, Japanese Art not Shinto Art or Buddhist Art - but then there's the odd ball - Islamic Art.
Now, is it fine to have a subcategory of Islamic Art, yes it is. A subcategory of Shinto Art - yes that's great.
See the difference?
Michael
PS: If someone would like to write to the Khalili Trust and explain how its oxymoronic to promote multicultural equality for the world and to encourage Muslims likewise - and then to turn around single out "Islam" from the rest of Worlds Art collections, that would be great. They probably don't even notice it themselves its so subconsciously subversive.
Well, I'm sorry that nudity was stopped to be presented in art during that period. I totally understand how grieved you are by that! But do not worry, it is being more than compensated for in our days. I understand that you loathe Islam and even muslims, but that should not blind your logic so that you accuse islam of being against art. I prefer beautiful arcitectures, paintings, handrafts etc. as art to nudity.
What is the Polytheistic Golden Age?!
Last edited:
??? You mean by Arabs as muslims or by muslims in General. You know, most muslims are not Arabs. Also what is your point with this question? One can also ask which major cities did the Christians and the Jews or the atheists make?
Michael, you really read all these sources?! You are way too patient man. I couldn't unless if I was seeking to learn all about all. Also, it seems to me that you should also know Persian, because some of these book are only in persian and not translated into English. I appreciate your enthiusasm if that is the case, but I couldn't understand what you and S.A.M. are trying to prove to each other. I mean I suppose it got so long that you two lost the main point of discussion.
Re. the story of the murder of the singing girl, It is the first time I hear of though I believe I'm quite well-versed in the history of the life of the Prophet. Can you relate it maybe I can remember?
Ha.. I also wish I had some information about your ideology. I mean are you a devout Christian or Jew or anti-religion or what?
Most scholars think it nay refer to Cyrus of Persia but there is no unanimous agreement on anyone as a candidate. Also that is not what I was asking, I asked who first indicated that Alexander may be Dhu'l Qurnain, not
Anyway Islamic scholars never reject an idea, they keep it around for later exploration.
Last edited:
I do not suppose these historical characteristics are the same. For one thing Qur'an describes Zul-Qarnain as a just king who obeyed Gods rules and tried to preach justice and God's word on earth, while everybody knows that Alexander was a tyrant who killed and burnt with the aim of being the ruler of the world. Also the events related about Zul-Qarnain in Quran do not at all match with those of Alexander.
I suppose this can help about the identity of Zul-Qarnain: http://www.understanding-islam.com/rq/q-028.htm