Morality Without God
- Thread starter (Q)
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No. People do evil things - if you accept your proof, then you have to accept all the good things over the years that have been done in the name of religion (crusades for human rights, helping the poor, helping the sick, etc.) as proof that religion is NOT evil, which you do not so that proof is not valid.Godless said:
BSFilter said:
actually, chimpanzees are known to torture and torment chimpanzees from foreign tribes. dreadful little creatures.
i watched a video where a gang of chimps were attacking another, and kept letting the victim get up so they could chase him (and beat him) more. this isnt torture?
no, these chimps (numbered about 15 or so) were allowing the other chimp to get up and try to escape. eventually, it just lay down and waited for them to finish the job. the show was about whether murder was only a human act.
surely this can be counted as torture.
surely this can be counted as torture.
cole grey said:
I thought the discussion was about where morality originated.
Clearly, the biblical version of good and evil is entirely relative to the observer and can't be held as any kind of standard. Some stories within the bible show god to be a cruel, malicious entity completely without morals of any kind. He can easily murder legions of innocent people just to make a point.
No, I didn't say that. I said confession should keep one from developing hatred of self. Other people have other more negative ways of avoiding self-hatred, i.e., forced non-chalance, purposeful ignorance, etc. - and some people just have tendencies toward thorough self-love, not often though.geeser said:
And yes, when the concept of God is understood in the way many atheists here, and some theists out in the world, understand the concept - it does engender self-hate, unfortunately.
cole grey said:
Appropriate actions for humans already existed long before Jesus or anyone else stated they were.
Whose god should I love? There are many to choose from.
I certainly can't love the god from the bible, he is cruel and immoral. The bible has made that evidently clear.
usp8riot
Registered Senior Member
Yes, I felt the same way Q. A lot of people misunderstand the bible, and perhaps other religious text. I can't say what I thought of the bible before because it would involve lots of bad words. I used to thing God was a coward since He wouldn't show His face. Used to curse Him. Used to feel violent urges against Him. Used to ask why, why, why. And think He was an evil God, even more evil than your average person. I've admitted I haven't read the bible much since it used to make me mad to read it sometimes so just skipped around here and there. I didn't search the bible for answers or others. Most questions that I asked, most christians couldn't answer so they were as good as sheep to me. Following blindly. Until I got the nerve to confront the issue head on and not look to others for my answer. I looked to and for God. No, not in the bible, the quran or any other holy book. I found Him in science because He is logic. He is rules, Both are the same. I found Him and He gave me the book of knowledge. Not of forseeable things or reasons why certain things happened in the past, but who He is. That was all I needed. He wasn't some physical being but He was, in a way. Hard to describe. Perhaps you can say I was looney in the head but I was perhaps looney with logic. Trying to make sense of everything. It will drive you crazy. Only God can handle it. But I felt as if life and afterlife was a school, is the impression I got. Others are in line waiting to hear of God and do His work, just as a class which is packed full of students and can't take any more. Those that flunk his class will be at the very end of the line and have to take it again when their time comes around. In the meantime, they will have a while to think about wherein they failed and the mistakes they made before will only make them better next time around. And those that pass His class will graduate and move on. Where exactly, I don't think He told me. Not exactly tell but give me the impression. He told me nothing but it was in, sort of, impression form, like I fore mentioned. We all go to His class, and it may be out for the day. And out of class, you can't be expected to abide by His rules and you get a break. Meaning we are not perfect and even God gives us leeway from His rules. And I got the impression He gave me the book of knowledge, His own guide book. What He teaches class with. And that He is letting me 'take it home with me', if you will. For me to study in the off-times and to teach others. Modern man has moved on, moved up, and with higher learning, comes higher courses. With growing up, comes new rules. And God feels it is time for new rules. So many misunderstand God's words now, they mock the faithful who are willing to accept God's answer to the problem.
God gave me the impression that life's problem is a lot like the problem of pi, as I've stated before. You ask God and believe Him and His answer, and it is that easy, that it is infinite, you will always want and want and want without God. Always wanting to conquer an unconquerable problem without God because of pride and foolishness. While a man who tries to solve pi thinks he is smarter than anyone else by solving more of the equation, the wise ones are looking at him as a fool. They say, "take your head out of that paper boy". And the foolish student says, "no, I am just about there, I've just about solved the problem". And the wise reply, "look, we have found the teacher, and He gave us the answer, do you not see Him or trust Him?". And the foolish boy repeatedly ignores their words and is trapped in his own hell of infinite toil and worry trying to solve the unsolvable. And as such, God has made me a tutor of men. I will try to help those that are in need of finding Him and the answer. I have delved deep in the problem myself but to no avail. Until I looked up realized my own, this is an infinite problem with no sense of purpose, and that is what made me look up. And it is science/logic that made me realize this. What God gave us to find Him. Jesus used logic to bring many to God. That is the way. God is the God of your science, the science in which many of it's students now don't believe in God. That's why it is time for God to send a messenger. Even God's own rules of logic, people distort to try to disprove Him and His words. That has Him angered and saddened. He has emotions as we do and does anyone in here like their words tainted? And so be it, do not taint His words.
God gave me the impression that life's problem is a lot like the problem of pi, as I've stated before. You ask God and believe Him and His answer, and it is that easy, that it is infinite, you will always want and want and want without God. Always wanting to conquer an unconquerable problem without God because of pride and foolishness. While a man who tries to solve pi thinks he is smarter than anyone else by solving more of the equation, the wise ones are looking at him as a fool. They say, "take your head out of that paper boy". And the foolish student says, "no, I am just about there, I've just about solved the problem". And the wise reply, "look, we have found the teacher, and He gave us the answer, do you not see Him or trust Him?". And the foolish boy repeatedly ignores their words and is trapped in his own hell of infinite toil and worry trying to solve the unsolvable. And as such, God has made me a tutor of men. I will try to help those that are in need of finding Him and the answer. I have delved deep in the problem myself but to no avail. Until I looked up realized my own, this is an infinite problem with no sense of purpose, and that is what made me look up. And it is science/logic that made me realize this. What God gave us to find Him. Jesus used logic to bring many to God. That is the way. God is the God of your science, the science in which many of it's students now don't believe in God. That's why it is time for God to send a messenger. Even God's own rules of logic, people distort to try to disprove Him and His words. That has Him angered and saddened. He has emotions as we do and does anyone in here like their words tainted? And so be it, do not taint His words.
But we weren't responsible enough in our actions to warrant no instruction at all.(Q) said:
Look at George washington owning slaves - could a president do that now? No, we are called, by desire for progress at the least, to bring our behavior more into line with those "appropriate actions" as we come to understand more.
That's ok, if you see it that way, as long as there is something higher for you to follow besides your animal self. Perhaps it is a concept of personal integrity or accord with your own highest self, or desire for a coalition of human universal consciousness that drives you, or wanting to be in accord with the proper way of life for a responsible human, accord with the tao, or accord with nature.Q said:
It isn't my place to judge what higher consciousness you aspire to, but to say we are merely animals with no other higher level than utilitarianism or socially evolved "morals", is a path of irresponsibility and lack of understanding of human possibility.
Morality is not necessarily specific to humans, though. Most social animals have some kind of morality in order to keep the social group intact. (Think of the widely held consideration of dogs as "loyal," for one example.) Maybe the animal self isn't enough, but surely the animal is.
usp8riot
Registered Senior Member
There is always an in-built need for the self in every species. Even love/loyalty of animals is really for the survival of it's own self. And the protection of others loyalty it which has helped taken care of the animal, is also for it's own selfish needs. Same with the human species with some exceptions. That is what seperates us from animals. To feel love for another even when they could be easily hated. To be able to be multi-conscious by being self-conscious. We can step outside ourselves and pretend to be feeling what they are feeling. And it is also with God's help we can feel this way and be reasonable minds. That anyone that dishes out pain is in pain themselves and they are hurting also. To rid one of their pain, we dispose of two problems and then some. The beholders pain is driven away, then they no longer want to expend their pain on another/s, which in turn, can be multiplied to others, and is a dominoe effect which is a case in much of the world today. Humans almost always underestimate their power to make the world better, but by spreading love and understanding to someone else, it in turn can turn around two-fold and bless others along with yourself.
usp8riot said:
That's a very good reason as to why religious text is not the word of a god.
Sorry, but you've lost me. Science and gods are diametrically opposed subjects.
So, you wanted to believe in a god, nothing new there.
How about, "impossible" to describe, since he's invisible.
No, you simply wanted to believe in gods, same as any other theist. Of course, there's no logic in that.
That's quite the school-boy fantasy you have going there, and it is just a fantasy. You've merely interpretated religion in yet another twisted way.
In other words, don't bother thinking, but instead, remain ignorant and have blind faith. Yup, nothing new there, same old, same old...
And yet, another theist who thinks he is "special."
Don't confuse religion with science and logic as it appears you're already confused about a great many things.
there is a difference between animal and human responsibility, even if we can anthropomorphize their reasoning and say they do things which seem morally upright, the phrase is somewhat misleading because animals we have trained to act a certain way cannot be said to be responsible for the way they act.baumgarten said:
Also, in the wild, we apply different standards to them and allow genetic evolutionary pressure to dictate what we call "good" and "bad".
And, even if we see animal "moraility" their level of responsibility will always be lower than ours.