Morality doesn't come from religion.

[Aqueous Id]

My IQ just dropped 5 points.

I'm sure your IQ is doing fine. You may consider me stupid but mostly that kind of talk is all game. If we stick to facts and evidence, I think the stupidity will flush itself out.

You said I was limiting myself to Western religion. Hammurabi happens to be in Mesopotamia, but I wouldn't hold that against the strength of the evidence. He clearly stated that he himself came up with these laws out of his own wisdom, so that makes it relevant to the OP.

As for relevance globally, I think the video addresses this from the get-go, by modelling six hypothetical cultures who arrive at their own definitions of morality through different causes and reasoning. This is covered early in the first clip.

But I haven't understood your intransigence over Hammurabi. He demonstrates a purely secular rationale for establishing his code, so QED, unless you have some material objections.

You're obviously free to shoot it down.

 

[Gustav]

ahh yes..

Ever since our ancestors, the macrotermitine termites, achieved ten-kilogram weight and larger brains during their rapid evolution through the late Tertiary Period, and learned to write with pheromonal script, termitic scholarship has elevated and refined ethical philosophy. It is now possible to express the imperatives of moral behavior with precision. These imperatives are self-evident and universal. They are the very essence of termitity. They include the love of darkness and of the deep, saprophytic, basidiomycetic penetralia of the soil; the centrality of colony life amidst the richness of war and trade with other colonies, the sanctity of the physiological caste system; and the evil of personal rights (the colony is ALL!); our deep love for the royal siblings allowed to reproduce; the joy of chemical song; the aesthetic pleasure and deep social satisfaction of eating feces from nestmates' anuses after the shedding of our skins; and the ecstasy of cannibalism and surrender of our own bodies when we are sick or injured (it is more blessed to be eaten than to eat). [E. O. Wilson]​

...so cool

 

[Chipz]

ahh yes..

Ever since our ancestors, the macrotermitine termites, achieved ten-kilogram weight and larger brains during their rapid evolution through the late Tertiary Period, and learned to write with pheromonal script, termitic scholarship has elevated and refined ethical philosophy. It is now possible to express the imperatives of moral behavior with precision. These imperatives are self-evident and universal. They are the very essence of termitity. They include the love of darkness and of the deep, saprophytic, basidiomycetic penetralia of the soil; the centrality of colony life amidst the richness of war and trade with other colonies, the sanctity of the physiological caste system; and the evil of personal rights (the colony is ALL!); our deep love for the royal siblings allowed to reproduce; the joy of chemical song; the aesthetic pleasure and deep social satisfaction of eating feces from nestmates' anuses after the shedding of our skins; and the ecstasy of cannibalism and surrender of our own bodies when we are sick or injured (it is more blessed to be eaten than to eat). [E. O. Wilson]​

...so cool

Soo...that was an interesting citation.

 

[Saturnine Pariah]

@Arioch: Loved all three videos. Morality is a subjective matter that has and can be manipulated via education or lack thereof or the the private needs of the few to control the masses for their own good and not the general good the of each society that it occurs in.

 

[arauca]

Morality 1: Good without gods.

Morality 2: Not-so-good books.

Morality 3: Of objectivity and oughtness.

Morality comes from your mother , If your mother have high moral standards if she does not , you will not have high moral standard. If she did not teach you the society might by chasing you like aa alley cat.

 

[Arioch]

@arauca --

Change "mother" to "parental unit/s" and I think you've got a point.

 

[Mind Over Matter]

Moral: of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.

Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.


Good Morality comes from God
Bad morality does not....

Religion - is generally seen as a system of beliefs and disciplines that reenforce and promote morality.

Religion - Godly, Loving religion - provides the structure by which more people can study and improve and conform their lives to Godly Morals. In this sense, Morality "comes from religion" as that is what religion (should) promotes.

So - Morality (Good and Loving beliefs) come from God and are promoted through the offices and the disciplines of religion...

 

[arauca]

Moral: of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.

Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.


Good Morality comes from God
Bad morality does not....

Religion - is generally seen as a system of beliefs and disciplines that reenforce and promote morality.

Religion - Godly, Loving religion - provides the structure by which more people can study and improve and conform their lives to Godly Morals. In this sense, Morality "comes from religion" as that is what religion (should) promotes.

So - Morality (Good and Loving beliefs) come from God and are promoted through the offices and the disciplines of religion...

In the beginning there was God, then there was a family , family teaches their offspring morality and discipline . Amen

 

[Balerion]

Good Morality comes from God
Bad morality does not....

Non-sequitur. Also completely untrue. God tells slaves to obey their masters, and tells parents to kill their children for misbehaving. You call those good morals?

Religion - is generally seen as a system of beliefs and disciplines that reenforce and promote morality.

How it's "seen" is irrelevant.

Religion - Godly, Loving religion - provides the structure by which more people can study and improve and conform their lives to Godly Morals. In this sense, Morality "comes from religion" as that is what religion (should) promotes.

There is no such thing as a loving religion. Any religion that claims its god loves you is also a religion that promotes bigotry and hate. In Christianity, just as an example, God's "love" is best demonstrated as his sacrificing of his only son for our sins. Aside from the cruelty of this act, consider that Jesus' sacrifice is provisional: if we do not follow him, we burn eternally. I'd hardly call that a loving proposition.

So - Morality (Good and Loving beliefs) come from God and are promoted through the offices and the disciplines of religion...

Another non-sequitur.

 

[Arioch]

So, out of the numerous theists/religionists/spiritualists who have commented on the thread so far, how many have actually watched the videos?

 

[lightgigantic]

So, out of the numerous theists/religionists/spiritualists who have commented on the thread so far, how many have actually watched the videos?

take it you didn't listen to the refuted in detail link
:shrug:

 

[Syne]

So, out of the numerous theists/religionists/spiritualists who have commented on the thread so far, how many have actually watched the videos?

I did, as I even replied to points raised in them, but you haven't responded to post #54 yet.

 

[Mind Over Matter]

From George Washington's Farewell Address, 1796:


"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

Source: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp

 

[Aqueous Id]

From George Washington's Farewell Address, 1796:


"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

Source: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp

I think this is an interesting quote, on several levels, and exemplary of your own ideas, which I find thoughtful, though I tend to disagree with you.

This is taken from Washington's farewell address. It is actually a passing remark embedded in a much longer dissertation in which he extols the virtues of America, Americans, and the American ideal. One might ask where these moral principles went during all the years slavery was tolerated.

There is something odd about this particular paragraph, though. Note this comment from Jefferson's diary:

Dr. Rush tells me that he had it from Asa Green that when the clergy addressed Genl. Washington on his departure from the govmt, it was observed in their consultation that he had never on any occasion said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Xn religion and they thot they should so pen their address as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However he observed the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice. Rush observes he never did say a word on the subject in any of his public papers except in his valedictory letter to the Governors of the states when he resigned his commission in the army, wherein he speaks of the benign influence of the Christian religion. "I know that Gouverneur Morris, who pretended to be in his secrets & believed himself to be so, has often told me that Genl. Washington believed no more of that system than he himself did."

As to the subject matter itself, that religion is beneficial in its impact on society, consider the ideas of Washington's former friend and founding father Thomas Paine. From The Age of Reason:

If the belief of errors not morally bad did no mischief, it would make no part of the moral duty of man to oppose and remove them. There was no moral ill in believing the earth was flat like a trencher, any more than there was moral virtue in believing that it was round like a globe; neither was there any moral ill in believing that the Creator made no other world than this, any more than there was moral virtue in believing that he made millions, and that the infinity of space is filled with worlds. But when a system of religion is made to grow out of a supposed system of creation that is not true, and to unite itself therewith in a manner almost inseparable therefrom, the case assumes an entirely different ground. It is then that errors not morally bad become fraught with the same mischiefs as if they were. It is then that the truth, though otherwise indifferent itself, becomes an essential by becoming the criterion that either confirms by corresponding evidence, or denies by contradictory evidence, the reality of the religion itself. In this view of the case, it is the moral duty of man to obtain every possible evidence that the structure of the heavens, or any other part of creation affords, with respect to systems of religion. But this, the supporters or partisans of the Christian system, as if dreading the result, incessantly opposed, and not only rejected the sciences, but persecuted the professors. Had Newton or Descartes lived three or four hundred years ago, and pursued their studies as they did, it is most probable they would not have lived to finish them; and had Franklin drawn lightning from the clouds at the same time, it would have been at the hazard of expiring for it in the flames.

 

[garbonzo]

Couldn't be assed reading the thread. Just want to state that my opinion on morality is that large portions of it were created by religion. Let me name some.

Adultery (mariage in general was created by religion, I'm sure)
Fornication
Incest
Homosexuality
Bestiality
Idol Worship (not even sure if that is practiced in mainstream religion nowadays cause they worship the cross, mother Mary, the Quran, etc.)
Being emo, dark, Satan worshipper, ghost hunter, etc.
Drunkenness or drinking any alchhol or ruining your body (ruining other people's body at the same time, like second hand smoke is another matter)
Polygamy
Covetousness (not stealing; will explain later)

"Swearing/Cursing". I think that most swear words were blacklisted because of religious morality: Ass(hole) = butt, which would be considered sacred, Dick = Genitals which would be considered sacred, Fuck = Having sex, oh my!, Shit = Crapping, which would be considered disgusting, I guess, Bitch = Female dog, but people started using it in a derogitory way to call human women. Understandable, but still religious morality, even Damn = God Damn, blasphemy! More medical terms had to be used because of medicinal purposes, or those words would be considered bad words to this day probably, like butt.

Rape I am iffy about. Not sure how early civilizations before religion dealt with that. Obviously we don't want to be taken advantage of, but would rape even be a problem in a openly sexual civilization? If not, then it was made by religious morality.

Suicide. If someone wants to die, let them, nothing to live for in ths long run anyway.

Necrophilia (sex with corpses)

Cannibalism (eating human flesh) - This probably wouldn't occur in a modern society, but if someone had the strong desire to eat an already dead person, what's the matter with it, if they are already dead? It was religion who invented protecting the body of a dead person, which brings me to my next point.

Protecting the dead. See above.

Prostitution or Pimping

Abortion of course!

Porn, easy one.

Killing another in self defense.

Eating meat

Having religious views other than your own, or not obeying religious laws of course, like sabbath, prayer, etc.

Gambling

Smoking marijuana, or hemp. This doesn't come under ruining your body, as in moderation it's not

The death penalty. Pretty much like suicide.



That's all I can think of. The only thing immoral by pure human standards is the golden rule, of course. Treat others just the same as you would want to be treated! If you don't want to be killed, don't kill. This is also beneficial to the human race. If everyone killed, we'd die off. Same with stealing, etc.

 

[Balerion]

From George Washington's Farewell Address, 1796:


"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

Source: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp

That does not address any of the points I've made.