Morality- A barrier to science

Not all boundaries are bad

Norsefire said:

When is humanity going to realize that these "morals" are nothing more than boundaries?

Many people already recognize this. And some of them are bound to ask, "When are people going to wake up and realize that not all boundaries are bad things?"

Scientific research is hindered by so-called morality.

Some boundaries are ridiculous. Some are questionable. Some are valid. An example of each:

• Some moralists would assert that the ultimate outcome of fetal stem cell research is a farm system by which women routinely get pregnant and have abortions to make money selling the fetuses to labs. This is a ridiculous boundary. Perhaps because of the rhetoric of the anti-abortion crowd, which often depicts women who have abortions as behaving decadently and luxuriously, many of these moralists seem to be under a mistaken notion that it isn't hard on a woman physically and psychologically to either enter or exit pregnancy. The extremity of their position suggests that women are mere sexual automatons, insensate to their own bodies and minds. This is a ridiculous reason to delay potential treatments for difficult diseases.

• I'll flip a coin over animal research. If we can get viable data by giving diseases to dogs and monkeys, there is a strong argument to be had. Many animal rights activists, however, focus on the ludicrous proposition that there is lasting, valuable science in knowing whether or not Rose Blush #4 rouge blinds a rabbit if you grind the stuff into its eyes. The boundary some would assert against animal research is often dubiously motivated, and invested almost purely in emotion. While there is a valid argument to be had about cruelty to animals, the general dialogue seems wrongly focused. As a result, the boundary is questionable.

• Frankly, no, I don't want a monkey vampire cloned from a hybrid fetus pissing in my bong. It seems a perfectly valid boundary to assert that we should not be creating new, nonviable species simply for the hell of it. I actually have an episode of Full Metal Alchemist, of all things, stuck in my head right now, the image of a little girl transformed into a chimeric dog begging to be destroyed. We would be wise to consider utility, profit, and implications alike before inventing life in a test tube.​

In general, this is one of the few topics where it is safe to automatically point to the Nazis. Indeed, we learned much from their hideous experiments, but in principle we don't intend to repeat such endeavors. Or, to the other, we need not tempt Godwin by invoking the Reich, and instead turn to the United States, where doctors attempting to better understand syphilis intentionally fostered the disease in the bodies of unsuspecting medical patients, obviously without their consent.

Science, as a general assertion, is intended to advance the human endeavor. Thus, there are moral limits that do apply. Whether or not any given person recognizes those boundaries is its own question.

A dialogue, fictional in its nature but reflective of a discussion that has already taken place. The executive and the senior researcher have a quiet conference to themselves:

"Did you get the data yet?"

Yeah, it's still coming in but the trends are showing.

"And what is it showing?"

Well, the hormone injections have tripled the infection rate in cows, over doubled the pus volume to be homogenized, and we're seeing a general increase in bovine morbidity.

"Well, they're cows. That's not important."

I suppose.

"What about people?"

Well, we only have partial numbers because the board cut the research period. The survey data, though, suggests that it's not the best for people, either.

"How so?"

Well, the increased hormone levels in the milk are transferring to the human body. Children are maturing faster physically. That is, kids are becoming physical adults faster. There is no correlating acceleration of psychological development. And sociological data suggests we're seeing concomitant increases in STD transmission and psychological dysfunction among adolescents.

"Meaning?"

You're kidding, right?

"But the data is only partial, you say?"

Well, yes, because the board ....

"So we can tell the FDA there is no conclusive evidence that artificially increasing cows' hormones in order to up production is having negative effects?"

Um, well ... that is ....

"I need that report on my desk in the morning. I'm meeting with regulators to go through the issues. We need to nip this one in the bud."​

Not everyone would agree that fucking up the next generation of humanity in order to make things faster, cheaper, and "better" is a good idea. Someone out there who is a scientist signed his name to a report knowing that, while it told the truth in legalese, it thoroughly misrepresented the data.

I don't envy that person.

In the present day, consider the notion of a "gene spill". Many have told us it can't happen. And plenty have told us such events are harmless.

Rosset, Peter. "Anatomy of a Gene Spill". Institute for Food & Development Policy Backgrounder. FoodFirst.org. Fall, 2000. http://www.foodfirst.org/en/node/59

So far, we've gotten lucky.
 
When is humanity going to realize that these "morals" are nothing more than boundaries? Scientific research is hindered by so-called morality.


Science must progress without the chain and ball of morality.

Both have their harms and gains.

As much as I would want science to progress, I would want the people scientists working on it to have good intentions with their creations.
 
Any unit of study involving ethics in research sucked ass big time. It was nothing more than a platform for liberal sociologists and lawyers to rant about how all scientists were potential criminals who needed to be shadowed by nanny regulatory authorities. Can you believe that they actually dragged the topics of Guantanamo Bay, refugee detention centres and arbitrary imprisonment into a lecture about scientific research?

Q said:
Btw, I'm testing a new vaccine and need a test subject. Since you have no qualms about experimentation, perhaps you'd like to be the guinea pig? It only causes some monsterism as a side effect.

If you're willing to compensate Norsefire for his participation, and he wants to participate, then who am I to stop you?
 
for example:

the experiment involves feeding humans cat food, on a daily basis, to see if they grow fur.

science with no morality dictates that this is an experiment worthy of discovering the outcome. now the decision is made for everyone to eat only cat food every day.

response:

'oh no, that is wrong. not a good experiment at all'
 
on the other hand:

the experiment involves 10 people who are unknown to mostly anyone. or specifically anyone important.

'this sounds like a good experiment'
 
Thoughts on medical research testing

Back in August, This American Life dug out an old episode from its archive, #62—"Something for Nothing" (May, 1997). Lottery players, dumpster divers, Hollywood culture, even that "Hands on a Hard Body" contest in Texas, as if the documentary film itself wasn't difficult enough. But there is also a section with Bob Helms, a human test subject and the publisher of Guinea Pig Zero, a magazine for and about test subjects.

Perhaps it's a twentieth century frame of mind, but once upon a time people distrusted certain justifications and glorifications of self-destruction. And that unease came about because as you spoke with and listened to these people, you couldn't help but watch their eyes, flicking about and averting direct contact except as punctuation, and all throughout a sense of hollowness.

For girls are sad in their eyes;
They're all standing around being hypnotized,
And walking me back to the firing line.
You smile to get in the door;
You can't keep it closed anymore.
Tell your Ma that you're gone to the freak show;
I'm crawling all over the carnival.
Just scratching a stitch in a skin,
I'm moaning for more of the medicine.


(Mark Lanegan, "Carnival")

And that's sort of what Bob Helms sounds like. It's an interesting segment.

As a political comment, it's something of a liberal nightmare. On the one hand, one advocates liberty, up to and including self-destruction. But something about liberalism balks at the right to be thoroughly exploited. To take an extreme example, and one we've visited here before as I recall, does one have the right to consent to being murdered? Is there not something about meeting someone, allowing him to sexually mutilate you and cook your penis before killing you, that doesn't belie the notion that one is "of sound mind and body" in making the decision? Liberals who want prostitution legalized also want strong regulation; we cringe at the notion of pimps.

Likewise there comes a point at which one wonders about the willingness to allow some random company to shoot you full of drugs. Helms, for instance, describes some unpleasant experiences, and GPZ recounts any number of cautionary tales. And yet there is a ready market, seemingly much akin to the abused and traumatized lover who continually goes back for more.

Human testing is obviously necessary. And nothing is ever perfect, so there will inevitably be problems. Or, more directly, that's why it's testing. Still, perhaps it's something visceral, or maybe it's cynicism about the pharmaceutical industry, but there is broad and at the very least mild distrust of human testing. There are boundaries to be, at a minimum, recognized. It's easy enough to say a therapy shouldn't go to human testing until it meets certain criteria, but what is on the other side of that equation? Are there really people who look forward to writhing in pain and trying to explain to a technician how absolutely awful a drug is making them feel? Is it the psychology of sublimation and surrogates? To what degree is one asking to be hurt intimately, just with a needle instead of a prick?

As with many forms of agreement, people have widespread doubt about the universal faculty of all humans to make certain decisions. Among the willing will be plenty who have no idea what they're getting into.

So beyond mere consent and compensation, there are ethical boundaries to be considered. And perhaps in the end, those concerns would be satisfied. But the institutions aren't really putting much effort into making the point. Has the subject been adequately informed of what he is getting into? Is the subject competent to make this decision?

If so, fine. But this is one of those shadowy areas of the culture where such notions are hardly clear.
____________________

Notes:

Chicago Public Radio. "#62: Something for Nothing". This American Life. May 2, 1997. ThisAmericanLife.org. Accessed March 23, 2009. http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=62

Guinea Pig Zero. http://www.guineapigzero.com/
 
not all experiments ever get consent, nor could they. there was a resent trial in the ambulance as to wether unwitnessed arests should be defibed straight away or after a set length of cpr. experiments on children MUST be expected to give a benifit to that child which is not the case for adults (as tiassa said)
 
Some moralists would assert that the ultimate outcome of fetal stem cell research is a farm system by which women routinely get pregnant and have abortions to make money selling the fetuses to labs.

I would be totally happy to actually do that. An early embryo can't think or feel pain. I would sell my fetuses, no problem.
 
If we can get viable data by giving diseases to dogs and monkeys, there is a strong argument to be had.

I do respect your position, but I disagree.

Animals owe us nothing. They're sentient beings too. You wouldn't inject a human with a disease, so why an animal?
 
Science without morals is horrific.
Science shackled by morals is dead.

In what way could morality shackle science?

What could be morally bad yet "good for science"? Or, to put it another way, can you suggest a scientific result or outcome that would be good, and yet only be achievable through immoral means?
 
In what way could morality shackle science?

What could be morally bad yet "good for science"? Or, to put it another way, can you suggest a scientific result or outcome that would be good, and yet only be achievable through immoral means?

Stem cell research comes immediately to mind.

Baron Max
 
If you don't know about the stem cell research controversy, then we have nothing to talk about concerning it.

I know about it. I just don't know what's immoral about it. I thought you might have an actual argument.
 
Some people think it's immoral. What more do you need to know?

I need to know why it is immoral. Or, more specifically, since you raised the issue, why you think it is immoral.

Or is morality something like a tyranny of the majority for you?

Morality for me is a matter of reason. If you can't give a reason for your moral position, then I regard it as worthless.
 
When is humanity going to realize that these "morals" are nothing more than boundaries? Scientific research is hindered by so-called morality.


Science must progress without the chain and ball of morality.

Morality is nothing more than an instrument to prevent us from destroying ourselves. I.E. prevent hitler like characters from killing us all. By aspiring to notions of good and evil, and right and wrong, we prevent ambition, ego and our inherent desire to control from destroying us.
Technology in itself is neutral, The absence of morals, in humanity is what is usually the killing blow.

Since I want to survive, Hooray for morality!.


Holy shit.
A 6 week study of Blade Runner and Mary Shelley's Frankenstein actually helps!.
 
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