Monotheists - I have some questions

[Michael]

1) Do you think that God interferes in your life or do you see God as an observer only?

2) If YES to #1 what is an example where God did something?

3) Would you still worship God if he did nothing for you in life?

4) Would you still worship God if he did nothing for you in life and you were not granted an afterlife? That is to say, you simply ended.


I suppose I was wondering about the motivation for the continual supplication?

Thanks,
Michael

 

[lightgigantic]

1) Do you think that God interferes in your life or do you see God as an observer only?

god controls everyone, although he may not control everyone in the same way

on a broad scale, god controls everyone through rememberence, knowledge and forgetfulness.

BG 15.15: I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedānta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.

in this way he is directing everyone's movements

BG 18.61: The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.

thus all living entities experience the results of their desires, with god acting as a neutral facilitator (although being material desires, the results are predictable)

BG 13.22: The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil among various species.

for one who is a sincere worshiper of god however, there is a slightly different emphasis

BG 10.10: To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.

BG 10.11: To show them special mercy, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.

in other words for the sincere theist, god inspires them in the heart (through knowledge, rememberence and forgetfulness, the same as any one else) on the correct path to get relief from material entanglement and attain spiritual knowledge

this reciprocation between god and the living entity continues with greater intensity until it develops to the point of direct perception

2) If YES to #1 what is an example where God did something?

CC Ādi 14.1: Things that are very difficult to do become easy to execute if one somehow or other simply remembers Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. But if one does not remember Him, even easy things become very difficult. To this Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu I offer my respectful obeisances.

basically they follow along that path

3) Would you still worship God if he did nothing for you in life?

if one has no experience of god's reciprocation, then adhering to spiritual life simply becomes dry, or even worse, another aspect of materialistic culture

4) Would you still worship God if he did nothing for you in life and you were not granted an afterlife? That is to say, you simply ended.

before service to god (which is abhedya or practical application - the means to the goal) there is knowledge of god (sambhanda or theoretical knowledge) - after all it would very difficult to render service to someone that one knows nothing about - so naturally if there is some fault in theory (as in concluding that after death one simply ceases to exist) one would expect it to curtail the service

I suppose I was wondering about the motivation for the continual supplication?

here is an excerpt

When Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu came to know of this, He punished Mukunda, forbidding him to see Him again. Although Caitanya Mahäprabhu was soft like a flower, He was also strict like a thunderbolt, and everyone was afraid to allow Mukunda to come again into the presence of Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu. Mukunda, therefore, being very sorry, asked his friends whether he would one day be allowed to see Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu. When the devotees brought this inquiry to Lord Caitanya, the Lord replied, “Mukunda will get permission to see Me after many millions of years.” When they gave this information to Mukunda, he danced with jubilation, and when Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu heard that Mukunda was so patiently waiting to meet Him after millions of years, He immediately asked him to return.

basically, the ideal devotee of god is so surrendered to god that name, fame adoration, wealth etc and even liberation itself appear like figs before the performance of service - the result of this is that god cannot help but similarly reciprocate with such a rare soul

BG 6.30: For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me.

Thanks,
Michael

thankyou

 

[Sarkus]

BG 15.15: I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedānta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.

in this way he is directing everyone's movements

But this is no different from the individual directing their own movements, without the need for a god.

BG 18.61: The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.

thus all living entities experience the results of their desires, with god acting as a neutral facilitator (although being material desires, the results are predictable)

And this is no different from the individual experiencing the results of their desires, without the need for a god

BG 10.10: To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.

BG 10.11: To show them special mercy, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.

in other words for the sincere theist, god inspires them in the heart (through knowledge, rememberence and forgetfulness, the same as any one else) on the correct path to get relief from material entanglement and attain spiritual knowledge

In other words - being a sincere theist (i.e. sincerely believing in God) gives a certain emphasis to your actions - an emphasis toward your a belief in God / theistic teachings. But still does not require God.

CC Ādi 14.1: Things that are very difficult to do become easy to execute if one somehow or other simply remembers Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. But if one does not remember Him, even easy things become very difficult. To this Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu I offer my respectful obeisances.

basically they follow along that path

And this answers his question... how?

if one has no experience of god's reciprocation, then adhering to spiritual life simply becomes dry, or even worse, another aspect of materialistic culture

And what defines an "experience of god's reciprocation" over a merely natural materialistic/probablistic event?
How can one properly identify such an experience over "the norm"?

Is this not merely a case of "believe to believe" - one's experience being subjectively interpreted as "god's reciprocation" due to the theistic beliefs. e.g. when one is told that they will receive a sign, and sincerely believe that they will receive a sign - will they not see the sign in anything they want to?

before service to god (which is abhedya or practical application - the means to the goal) there is knowledge of god (sambhanda or theoretical knowledge) - after all it would very difficult to render service to someone that one knows nothing about - so naturally if there is some fault in theory (as in concluding that after death one simply ceases to exist) one would expect it to curtail the service

LOL!
Belief from fear, LG?
Belief from incredulity?

How do you determine whether the theory is in fault or the belief is in fault?

basically, the ideal devotee of god is so surrendered to god that name, fame adoration, wealth etc and even liberation itself appear like figs before the performance of service - the result of this is that god cannot help but similarly reciprocate with such a rare soul

Circular subjective processing.
"Believe to believe"

BG 6.30: For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me.

"If you believe in me you will believe in me".

 

[Positron]

1) Do you think that God interferes in your life or do you see God as an observer only?

Interferes

2) If YES to #1 what is an example where God did something?

Turned my life around, from drugs, sex, and just a really crappy life

3) Would you still worship God if he did nothing for you in life?

if he did nothing, I would never have known he existed

4) Would you still worship God if he did nothing for you in life and you were not granted an afterlife? That is to say, you simply ended.

Same thing as my answer to number 3

 

[Enterprise-D]

How do you know god turned your life around as opposed to the encouragement of peers/family and your own resolve?

 

[Sarkus]

2) If YES to #1 what is an example where God did something?

Turned my life around, from drugs, sex, and just a really crappy life

Do you have such a low opinion of yourself that you don't think yourself capable of having done this for yourself - that you needed someone's help? And not just a friend's / relative's help but the help of an all-powerful deity?

I crossed the road the other day. Safely.
I guess I could never have done it safely without the help of a god - so he must exist.

 

[Positron]

How do you know god turned your life around as opposed to the encouragement of peers/family and your own resolve?

Do you have such a low opinion of yourself that you don't think yourself capable of having done this for yourself - that you needed someone's help? And not just a friend's / relative's help but the help of an all-powerful deity?

I crossed the road the other day. Safely.
I guess I could never have done it safely without the help of a god - so he must exist.

No, I dont have much family left, and they pretty much disowned me anyway.
As for personal encouragement, I suppose I couldnt have hated myself at that time more. I just entertained the idea of going to church, so I went and everyone there was very nice to me. I hadnt been treated like that in a long time. I went back a few weeks more but I still was in the drugs and stuff. The pastor did a sermon once on how much god loved even people like me, so during the invitation I went forward and gave my heart to Jesus. I can't really explain what happened to me almost immediatley, but for the first time I knew everything was going to be okay. Now i'm as happy as i've ever been! I have a good life, new freinds, no more drugs, it's just all so much better now!

Sarkus,
quite frankly I don't really appreciate you equating my old crappy, hellish life to crossing the street safely.

 

[VitalOne]

1) Do you think that God interferes in your life or do you see God as an observer only?

Without "God" there is no reality to speak of...all rests upon he who is unknowable....but basically God is just an observer only

2) If YES to #1 what is an example where God did something?

God does everything yet nothing, all rests upon him...

3) Would you still worship God if he did nothing for you in life?

The reason you worship God is to achieve liberation and happiness, through devotion you can destroy sinful reactions to past deeds

4) Would you still worship God if he did nothing for you in life and you were not granted an afterlife? That is to say, you simply ended.

God doesn't really do anything, all things happen through karma, he is equal to all, your afterlife is determined by your deeds and actions...

 

[lightgigantic]

Sarkus

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
BG 15.15: I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedānta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.

in this way he is directing everyone's movements
”
But this is no different from the individual directing their own movements, without the need for a god.

yes, under illusion the individual living entity believes they are non-different from their ability to remember, know and forget things - however a little introspection reveals that we have no power over these things

“
Originally Posted by LG
BG 18.61: The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.

thus all living entities experience the results of their desires, with god acting as a neutral facilitator (although being material desires, the results are predictable)
”
And this is no different from the individual experiencing the results of their desires, without the need for a god

except of course that the living entity has no inherent potency to fulfill their desires (they are at the mercy of their environment, which begins with the body they inhabit)

“
Originally Posted by LG
BG 10.10: To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.

BG 10.11: To show them special mercy, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.

in other words for the sincere theist, god inspires them in the heart (through knowledge, rememberence and forgetfulness, the same as any one else) on the correct path to get relief from material entanglement and attain spiritual knowledge
”
In other words - being a sincere theist (i.e. sincerely believing in God) gives a certain emphasis to your actions - an emphasis toward your a belief in God / theistic teachings. But still does not require God.

getting free from ignorance certainly does require a god

“
Originally Posted by LG
CC Ādi 14.1: Things that are very difficult to do become easy to execute if one somehow or other simply remembers Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. But if one does not remember Him, even easy things become very difficult. To this Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu I offer my respectful obeisances.

basically they follow along that path

”
And this answers his question... how?

by god's mercy difficult things become easy and in the absence of god's mercy easy things become difficult

“
Originally Posted by LG
if one has no experience of god's reciprocation, then adhering to spiritual life simply becomes dry, or even worse, another aspect of materialistic culture
”
And what defines an "experience of god's reciprocation" over a merely natural materialistic/probablistic event?

in short, one can develop a stronger or clearer understanding of god's nature, whereas mere material success in a field just is a temporary gain in the wider picture of inevitable loss.

How can one properly identify such an experience over "the norm"?

in short, it requires that one be a practitioner

Is this not merely a case of "believe to believe" - one's experience being subjectively interpreted as "god's reciprocation" due to the theistic beliefs.

perhaps at a certain level where one may be identifying one's mind as god's desire- more practice and introspection in light of scripture and saintly persons however enable distinct clarifications between spiritual and material desires

e.g. when one is told that they will receive a sign, and sincerely believe that they will receive a sign - will they not see the sign in anything they want to?

its not so much about seeing signs but taking the correct initiative - remember we are talking about remembrance knowledge and forgetfulness - to give a material example, just like a cigarette smoker may forget that smoking causes cancer, know where he can buy cigarettes at 1am in the morning and remember where he can scratch together a couple of bucks to buy them

“
Originally Posted by LG
before service to god (which is abhedya or practical application - the means to the goal) there is knowledge of god (sambhanda or theoretical knowledge) - after all it would very difficult to render service to someone that one knows nothing about - so naturally if there is some fault in theory (as in concluding that after death one simply ceases to exist) one would expect it to curtail the service
”

LOL!
Belief from fear, LG?
Belief from incredulity?

Once again it seems you have severe difficulties in seeing the connection between theory -> practice -> realization

How do you determine whether the theory is in fault or the belief is in fault?

belief only comes in to the degree that one is willing to make the transition from theory to practice - to determine whether the theory is at fault one has to examine what the theory is and what the practice is

“
Originally Posted by LG
basically, the ideal devotee of god is so surrendered to god that name, fame adoration, wealth etc and even liberation itself appear like figs before the performance of service - the result of this is that god cannot help but similarly reciprocate with such a rare soul
”
Circular subjective processing.
"Believe to believe"

try giving up name fame and adoration then

“
Originally Posted by LG
BG 6.30: For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me.
”
"If you believe in me you will believe in me".

the sanskrit word is pasyati (see)

 

[Sarkus]

Sarkus,
quite frankly I don't really appreciate you equating my old crappy, hellish life to crossing the street safely.

Hyperbole certainly gets the point of the message through, though.

 

[LiveInFaith]

1) Do you think that God interferes in your life or do you see God as an observer only?

2) If YES to #1 what is an example where God did something?

3) Would you still worship God if he did nothing for you in life?

4) Would you still worship God if he did nothing for you in life and you were not granted an afterlife? That is to say, you simply ended.


I suppose I was wondering about the motivation for the continual supplication?

Thanks,
Michael

God changes the way we live, from mother's womb, to the first instance of our lungs suck oxygen from free air. An infants doesn't do it alone, the mother didn't, doctor just pulling them out; it just happens.

Faith says it is 'the hand of God'.
Reducing God, it is 'natural law'.
I choose to say it is 'the hand of God'.

 

[Positron]

Hyperbole certainly gets the point of the message through, though.

aye

 

[Michael]

I'm still unclear as to this question:

Would you still worship God if he did nothing for you in life and you were not granted an afterlife? That is to say; NO AFTERLIFE

 

[LiveInFaith]

I'm still unclear as to this question:

Would you still worship God if he did nothing for you in life and you were not granted an afterlife? That is to say; NO AFTERLIFE

You raised question to monotheists.
Monotheists believe God did things.
That is to say; NO IF.

 

[Carcano]

Would you still worship God if he did nothing for you in life and you were not granted an afterlife? That is to say; NO AFTERLIFE

I have often asked a similiar question:

If you were absolutely certain of immortality, would you have any interest in deities at all?

Notice that in Christian prayer God is always commanded to do this or that...oddly paired with an abundance of flattery.

 

[Michael]

I suppose I feel that most people, without this understanding of life after death, probably wouldn't worship a God.

Everyone has their different take, Positron seems to have found God at the same time he found a community of loving people. Others find God at the same time they perform deep Meditation, others say they found God when on high on PCP.

While all these things may result in a feeling of God - it seems that the day to day supplicating to God is performed with little "finding" God in it. And some people never have that feeling. They just do as they were taught to do. Pray 5 times in this direction, say 25 hail marry's, etc...

So I wondered, what keeps them going?

Well, when I tell people I am atheist the first thing they say, the first thing out of their mouths is: What happens when you die. Almost every time. It's like it's front and center - this worry of death. I say I am gone. They say that's sad - because for them they will go to heaven and live forever in a perfect body in a perfect place. As if the mere wishing it will make it so. I say, hey no one wants to die and sure probably lots of Atheists would like to live after they die - but for now death is a part of life and that for me must be accepted.

We will all die.

So, I think, if lets say the church or the Mosque or the Synagogue or whatever said this: OK, keep coming, keep praying, keep singing, keep hail marrying and keep pointing yourself in this direction and putting your head to the ground BUT once you die that's it. No more you - bye bye. Done. I don't think too many people would still worship. They'd simply think this is a big waste of my time. I'm going to spend it living this life right now not hoping for another one after this is over....


or so I would think....

Michael

 

[Carcano]

Its good to keep in mind though that not all spiritual traditions have God ideas.

Buddhism for example. One can believe in immortal Spirit without attaching any importance to deities.

 

[Carcano]

I say I am gone. They say that's sad - because for them they will go to heaven and live forever in a perfect body in a perfect place.

They affirm this because their religion presents them with very easy requirements - just believe such and such.

If the requirements were difficult they might say instead that their fate is something God will decide - not them.

 

[LiveInFaith]

I suppose I feel that most people, without this understanding of life after death, probably wouldn't worship a God.
.....................
.....................
So I wondered, what keeps them going?

There is more than one reason people still do worshipping.
The utlimate reason, yes, life after death.

Other reason, regrading to the life (before death).
Many times, people get the feeling of secure and safe when submitting (worshipping God). Do praying. It helps in many stressing situations one is currently facing. It could push down blood pressures.
But well, this is not easy to understand. Because doing is believing.

 

[lightgigantic]

I'm still unclear as to this question:

Would you still worship God if he did nothing for you in life and you were not granted an afterlife? That is to say; NO AFTERLIFE

obviously not since worshiping an entity (to the degree that one would worship god) that didn't reciprocate and didn't even fit the generic description of being a potent god is not possible (this type of 'god' would be worshiped to the same level as pamela anderson and the like - she also doesn't interact with her worshipers or offer much in the way of a next life)