miracles...do they exist?

mario

Registered Senior Member
What constitutes a miracle? Miraculous healings, surviving a sure-death experience, seeing visions...can we ever be absolutely sure that a miracle came from god or just something that we haven't scientifically been able to explain yet?

Leo claims that all the saints of the past possessed miraclulous powers. Personally I am not aware of any that made the newspapers or were checked out by scientists and proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. If all we have to go by are "claims" then there is still an element of doubt. I'm not saying that they were hoaxers but maybe they had a vivid imagination and powers of persuasion.

I do recall seeing on a show called "unsolved mysteries" that a church in europe had a sealed glass container with old dried blood from somebody holy from way back in it and once a year the priest would parade this dried blood around during a service and miraculously it would turn liquid again. And how about those statues and paintings that weep for no reason? Can we ever know thru carefull scientific examination of these objects if miracles are indeed happening? But unfortunately we need the permission from the owners for this to happen first.
 
Definition and Classification of Miracles

How does one define a miracle?

“A miracle is an event which the forces of nature - including the natural powers of man - cannot of themselves produce, and which must, therefore, be referred to a supernatural agency” (Fisher, p. 9).

A miracle is a divine operation that transcends what is normally perceived as natural law; it cannot be explained upon any natural basis.

The miracles recorded in the Bible fall into several categories. The following examples are illustrative; though certainly not exhaustive:

First, there are supernatural acts of creation. Certain creation activities were accomplished by the word of God (Heb. 11:3); He merely spoke, and it was done (Psa. 33:9). Obviously, this type of divine action is not being duplicated today since the creation process of the material universe was concluded at the end of the initial week of earth’s history (Gen. 2:1-2).

Second, there were miracles which involved a temporary and localized suspension of laws regulating nature. Jesus calmed a ferocious storm on the Sea of Galilee (Mt. 8:23-27), and, on another occasion, He walked upon the waters of the lake (Jn. 6:16-21).

Third, there were signs which involved the healing of man’s physical body. The blind were made to see (Jn. 9:1-7), and the lame to walk (Acts 3:1-10).

Fourth, there were signs demonstrating divine power over death. Lazarus, dead four days, was raised (Jn. 11:43-44), and, of course, the resurrection of Christ is the very foundation of the Christian system (1 Cor. 15:16-19).

Fifth, some of the wonders of the New Testament age had to do with the expulsion of demons that had entered into human bodies (Mt. 12:22ff). This was evidence of the fact that the Savior’s power was superior to that of Satan.

Sixth, the exhibition of divine authority was seen in the manipulation of certain material things. Christ turned water into wine (Jn. 2:1-11), and multiplied a lad’s loaves and fishes, so that thousands were fed (Jn. 6:1-14).

Seventh, miraculous power was demonstrated in both the plant and animal kingdoms. Balaam’s donkey spoke with a man’s voice (Num. 22:28), and the Lord Jesus, in an object lesson relative to the impending destruction of Jerusalem, destroyed a fig tree with but a word from His mouth (Mt. 21:19). In this study, we will limit ourselves mostly to a consideration of miracles recorded in the New Testament record.

Characteristics of a Genuine Miracle

What are the traits of a genuine miracle, as opposed to feigned signs? Consider the following facts.

1. A supernatural display of divine power is not an arguable proposition; it is a dramatic, demonstrable fact. No where in the New Testament is there a record of a divine spokesman arguing for the validity of miracles. No logical scheme is needed to establish such a case. Miracles either happen, or they don’t.

When Jesus performed signs, even His enemies did not deny the effect of such; they merely attempted to attribute His power to some other source (e.g., Satan - cf. Mt.12:24). The leaders of the Jewish community did not doubt that Peter and John had performed a notable miracle when they healed the lame man at the temple; rather, they sought to mute the sign’s impact by threats of violence (cf. Acts 4:14ff).

Is anything being done today of such compelling nature as to elicit this type of reaction?

2. In biblical times, miracles always had a worthy motive. Signs were not done for the purpose of personal aggrandizement. Though Jesus’ miracles established the validity of His claim of being the Son of God, that designation was not assumed out of personal interest. Rather, the documented claim was motivated by a love for man’s salvation.

Those performing wonders in the first century did not do so for the purpose of enhancing themselves financially - unlike the wealthy “faith-healers” of today. When Peter encountered the lame man of Acts 3, he had no money (Acts 3:6).

3. As a general rule, the miracles of the Bible era were done in the presence of a multitude of credible witnesses - even hostile observers. When the Lord multiplied the loaves and fishes, possibly some 10,000 or more people were present (cf. Jn. 6:10ff). Truly, the signs validating Christianity were not “done in a corner” (Acts 26:26).

4. Genuine miracles were not slow, progressive processes; rather, they produced instantaneous effects. Note: “. . . and straightway he received his sight . . .” (Mk. 10:52); “. . . and immediately his feet and his ankle bones received strength” (Acts 3:7).

In the New Testament, one never reads such statements as this: “Paul prayed for him, and within three weeks he was cured.” Yet, such testimonies are common among the devotees of modern charlatans.

5. True miracles must be subject to sense perception. The water that Jesus turned into wine could be tasted (Jn. 2:9); Thomas could feel the prints in the hands of the resurrected Christ (Jn. 20:27), and the restored ear of the high priest’s servant could be seen (Lk. 22:51). The wonders of the Bible were objective demonstrations, not subjective speculations!

6. Actual signs must be independent of secondary causes. By this we mean there must be no possible way to explain the miracle in a natural fashion.

One is reminded of the boy whose cat gave birth to kittens. When the lad noticed the kittens were blind, he prayed for them. Sure enough, in about nine days they all could see! Hardly a miracle.

Can the miracles of Christ be explained in any natural fashion? They cannot. For instance it cannot be argued that the blind man of John 9:1ff was psychosomatically afflicted, for the gentleman had been born in that condition. How can a perfectly restored ear, that had been amputated, be explained by current processes (Lk. 22:50-51)?

7. A genuine miracle will generate more than a superficial and temporary interest. It will have an abiding effect. The miracles of Christ were never denied during the apostolic age, nor even in the immediate ages beyond.

Even ancient enemies of Christianity, like Celsus and Porphyry, admitted that Jesus did certain extraordinary deeds; they suggested, of course, that it was mere “magic.” Their charges, however, are indirect testimony to the supernatural works of Christ. But who can remember a single “miracle” that Oral Roberts or Jimmy Swaggart is supposed to have performed?

We submit, therefore, that so-called modern miracles do not meet the criteria suggested above. They thus must be rejected and explained upon some other basis.

I strongly recommend reading the rest of the article:
http://www.christiancourier.com/archives/miracles.htm
 
What constitutes a miracle?
*************
M*W: Mario, I'll start believing in miracles when Jesus turns my water into Chablis.
 
mario said:
Leo claims that all the saints of the past possessed miraclulous powers. Personally I am not aware of any that made the newspapers or were checked out by scientists and proven beyond a shadow of a doubt....

You can't isolate yourself behind the Protestant,Jewish Masonic Media and then offer as a credible argument that no one has ever dropped proof in your lap concerning a Miracle.

The Vatican has been verifying Miracles now for centuries. If you think they are biased for Miracles, you need only go to the Vatican Library and find that the great majority of Vatican Investigations toss out, not affirm, Miracles. The Miracles that are affirmed are treated almost as embarrassments to a System designed to Keep the Lid on the Depository of Faith.

But we do have independent Scientists. Go the the French Web Site for the Lourdes Shrine and check out the link on the Medical Society that has verified over a hundred Miracles. Yes, your first instinct will be that they must be Catholic Scientists who have turned Traitor to the Atheist Cause, but you really must read their Criterias and Protocols to realize that they are for real.

Then we have the Most Spectacular Miracle in Human History -- the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima, Portugal, 1917. There must be a dozen Marian Sites which can tell you all about that one... actually Six. Our Lady appeared to the Child Seers once a month for six months, presenting progressively more spectacular Miracles each time, until the Miracle of the Sun which was witnessed over an area of approximately 500 Square Miles.

Then we have History. Some of the Greatest Catholic Saints would not have had the influence they had without the Miracles that were part and parcel of their Fame and Political Power. Vincent Ferrer was known for thousands of miracles a day. He emptied hospitals. You can't fake that.

But I can't mention any instance. You know, you do not need to know some secret handshake to go into a Catholic Bookstore. You can continue to allow your Secular Big Brothers to keep you isolated, or you can break out and find the Truth.
 
Medicine Woman said:
What constitutes a miracle?
*************
M*W: Mario, I'll start believing in miracles when Jesus turns my water into Chablis.

Actually, a lot of Marian Prophecy indicates that Convincing Evidence will be given to the World for the Existence of God and the Miraculous, but that a lot of people will continue in their Atheism out of Pride and sheer Stubborness.

People are emotionally invested in what they go On Line to fight for. If you constantly work yourself up in order to deny certain propositions, then will you even believe your own senses if your Water should suddenly and inexplicably be turned into a Chablis?

However, the Proud and the Stubborn will not be too considerable of number. Take Fatima, Portugal as a 'for instance': The Intellectual Fad in 1917 was to overthrow the influence of the Catholic Church, to throw the Priests and Bishops out of the Country and disband all the Religious Orders and confiscate their properties. The remaining Catholics were a miniscule minority. The Miracle of the Sun popped all of that as though it were only a big wiggly soap bubble, and the Nation became Solidly Catholic and still is. So, yes, people ordinarily believe Miracles that they see themselves.
 
Leo Volont -

You mentioned Fatima.

So ... is Catholic paedophilia the Third Secret of Fatima?

What is the substance of the third part of the Fatima message, the so-called "Third Secret of Fatima"? Sr. Lucy revealed the opening line, "In Portugal the dogmas of the faith will always be preserved..." We know that Paul VI read the third Fatima message on entering his pontificate, and took it very much to heart. In 1967 Cardinal Ottaviani told the public, "The secret was intended for the Holy Father." John Paul II read the message and has become a dedicated Fatima disciple. Speaking to a Catholic group in Germany in 1980, he commented on the message, saying, "We must be prepared to undergo trials in the not-too-distant future..." In 1985 Cardinal Ratzinger told us, "To publish the third secret would mean exposing the church to the danger of sensationalism, exploitation of the content."

Examination of the considerable evidence available leaves little doubt that the gist of the secret is that in the last third of the 20th century the highest church officials would fall under satanic influence and err in their teaching. The message surely portends worldwide heresy in the church, and may specifically warn about acceptance of abortion, ecclesiastic approval of homosexual unions, and denial of the real Eucharistic presence. The punishment in store for us, should the warning be ignored, may also be specified.


Source: 281.com

Interestingly, the site also carries the purported text of the Third Secret, but questions its authenticity:

The text which purports to be the third message of Fatima, released in June 2000 by the CDF to quell speculation posted on various web sites, consists of the apocalyptic vision given farther below. The document gives rise to many questions, among them:

But hey ... Satanic influence, errors in teaching--sounds like the abuse scandal might fulfill the Third Secret.
 
Dear Tiassa,

The Pedophilia Scandals... which are now becoming somewhat universal throughout the Church, may have some reference within the Third Secret, but since it is debatable whether we even know what the Real Third Secret is, it would be difficult to tell. However, much of Marian Prophecy from many of the Marian Apparitions have indicated that Society in the End Times, and the Church would be Corrupt. It was said that Society would lose the sense for the distinction between right and wrong and that even children would lose their innocence. When the Republicans run on "Family Values" by advocating Greed and War, we prove that Society has lost its ability for Moral Distinction. And we live in an Age when Children are volunteering to Play House with Pervert Priests. No one is holding knives to these kids throats. They know sex is wrong -- that it is dirty -- but they 'party' anyway. No innocence there. I am an old man, but I remember my childhood. I kept my little pants up. Any child old enough to leave his yard and go off by himself knows that private parts should remain private. Their willingness to do "around the world's" for new Gameboys simply indicates the pervasive decadance of our Society.

Also, I suspect that the Masons might have had something to do with putting so many Pedophiles and Homos into the Priesthood. It is no real secret that many Bishops are Masons. When looking at why some priests remain priest and some priests are promoted to Bishop, we can anticipate that the same answer applies to them as for every Corporation today -- Masonic influence pulls all the strings. so Masonic Bishops engineer the very scandals that destroy the Church.

Yes, Marian Prophecy is consistent with all these scandals. That is why I do not bend over backwards to defend the Catholic Church of the Bishops. Yet there are still pockets of committedly moral Catholics.
 
Leo:

And we live in an Age when Children are volunteering to Play House with Pervert Priests. No one is holding knives to these kids throats. They know sex is wrong -- that it is dirty -- but they 'party' anyway. No innocence there.

That is incorrect. In most cases of abuse, the children are unwilling participants. They do not "volunteer" for abuse. They may get invited to a pedophile's house and then find that they cannot easily escape. They do not expect to be abused, and once it is happening there is little they can do about it. Moreover, many very young children may not understand until years later what has happened to them.

Also, I suspect that the Masons might have had something to do with putting so many Pedophiles and Homos into the Priesthood. It is no real secret that many Bishops are Masons. When looking at why some priests remain priest and some priests are promoted to Bishop, we can anticipate that the same answer applies to them as for every Corporation today -- Masonic influence pulls all the strings. so Masonic Bishops engineer the very scandals that destroy the Church.

I suppose you have some evidence to back up this ridiculous assertion (?)
 
James R said:
Leo:



That is incorrect. In most cases of abuse, the children are unwilling participants. They do not "volunteer" for abuse. They may get invited to a pedophile's house and then find that they cannot easily escape. They do not expect to be abused, and once it is happening there is little they can do about it. Moreover, many very young children may not understand until years later what has happened to them.



I suppose you have some evidence to back up this ridiculous assertion (?)

What, you 'know' how pedophilia works. What I know is that a Pedophile knows how to pick the kind of kid that will go along with it -- the 'partiers'. Just go back in your mind to your own childhood. Unless you are one of the 'partiers' you know darn well that you wouldn't have participated in any stupid hairy adults 'private' parties.

As for evidence that the Mason are out to destroy the Church and usurp the Political and Economic Power of the World... I guess I should go out to my Mail Box and see if their Secret Organization has begun to send out Mission Statements.
 
The lack of modern-day miracles is likely due to the ability of science and technology to expose them for what they are: mass hysteria, hoaxes, and misunderstood phenomena.

Miracles are like UFOs. Sure they might exist, but no empirical evidence exists to suggest it.
 
SkinWalker said:
The lack of modern-day miracles is likely due to the ability of science and technology to expose them for what they are: mass hysteria, hoaxes, and misunderstood phenomena.

Miracles are like UFOs. Sure they might exist, but no empirical evidence exists to suggest it.

This is exactly the type of argument I anticipated in my Post "Answers to Atheism". This is what I said:

The same assertion can prove that the Sun does not exist… for instance, a single person seeing the Sun proves nothing because he is delusional; two or more people seeing the Sun proves nothing because it is obviously Mass Hysteria; Scientific Instruments prove nothing because it is more likely that something else is the source of Heat and Light then an Entire Star being placed up in the Sky; the Amazing Randy says he saw a Sun Worshipper put something hot and bright up in the Sky; Scientists that say their Data proves the Sun must certainly be biased in favor of The Church of Sun Worshippers, because no Real Scientist would vindicate the superstitious notion that there is a Sun in the Sky. So, this argument always hits an impasse, when Our Own Scientific Evidence is rejected with the simple assertion that they refuse to believe it. It’s no longer an Argument when they are satisfied to duck the Evidence, declare victory and run home.

Nothing else in our Day to Day life is or can be proven by the Laboratory Standards that you demand Miracles be subjected to.

And then there is the rejection of the Research when it is. A few Months ago an old man, Prahlad Jani, who has not eaten or drank in over 60 years, agreed to submit to a 10 day period of Scientific Observation at Sterling Hospital for a Doctor who wanted to submit the Study to NASA, supposing that in outer Space it would be less complicated if Astronauts did not need to eat or drink. So, for 10 Days they locked up this old guy and did not let him eat or drink, and he did just fine. The Study said, "Okay, the Old Guy is for Real" and the Doctors are planning Phase Two -- to figure out how he is doing it so that Astronauts can learn to do it too.

But did this Study create a Revolution in Science? No. That Poor Doctor has had nothing but a Giant Crap Storm from other Scientists who wish to have his Career burnt at the Stake for his Heresy of siding with Religion against Science.

By the Way, Pralah Jani is a Goddess Worshipper. When he was young he wanted to be a fulltime devotee but prayed that he was worried that he would starve to death if he spent all his time in Devotions. She told him not to worry. From then on he had no need to eat or drink or even to have to go to the Bathroom. Now, I suppose the Good Doctor Scientist at the Sterling Hospital would eventually have come to an impasse, because, how can you quantify an Answered Prayer from a Goddess.
 
Leo Volont said:
The same assertion can prove that the Sun does not exist…

Poppycock. An absurd argument doesn't give credibility to the absurd notion of miracles. Science easily proves the existence of the sun because science is a cumulative and progressive discipline, whereas the metaphysics of religion is not. The sun also presents certain observable traits that are predictive. Gods and miracles do not. Your reasoning is post-modernist poppycock.

Leo Volont said:
Nothing else in our Day to Day life is or can be proven by the Laboratory Standards that you demand Miracles be subjected to.

Show me one miracle that can be measured, repeated, and that will give rise to predictive results (i.e. hypotheses on additional miracles).

A few Months ago an old man, Prahlad Jani, who has not eaten or drank in over 60 years, agreed to submit to a 10 day period of Scientific Observation at Sterling Hospital [...] The Study said, "Okay, the Old Guy is for Real" and the Doctors are planning Phase Two -- to figure out how he is doing it so that Astronauts can learn to do it too.

Leo Volont said:
But did this Study create a Revolution in Science? No. That Poor Doctor has had nothing but a Giant Crap Storm from other Scientists who wish to have his Career burnt at the Stake for his Heresy of siding with Religion against Science.

Obviously his "study" is flawed and the peer-review process has noted these flaws. Claims of never eating/drinking people are not new. They have been debunked along with so-called Remote Viewers and psychics for years. Cite a peer-reviewed journal article on the old guy, and I might give it some credibility.

Leo Volont said:
By the Way, Pralah Jani is a Goddess Worshipper.

I'd say the fakir is a faker.
 
Leo Volont said:
What, you 'know' how pedophilia works. What I know is that a Pedophile knows how to pick the kind of kid that will go along with it -- the 'partiers'.

What a sad childhood you must have had to endure if you truly believe that.

According to the National Resource Center on Child Sexual Abuse (1992), children with disabilities are 4 to 10 times more vulnerable to sexual abuse than their non-disabled peers. I suppose they're heavier-than-normal-partiers, eh?

Abusers use frequently utilize dominant personalities or guilt to advance their abusive relationships with children and prolong them. Pedophiles don't pick the "partier" type teens, they pick the weak-personality children that they can influence or convince that an appropriate relationship is occuring.
 
in the past i did not believe in miracles
but after witnessing one very recently
which could also have been classified as
paranormal
ive become very sceptical about it
maybe it was an alien force,who knows
have you had any such experiences
im really in limbo because of this all my
reasoning has been rendered flawed by
this extraordinary event
now what am i gona do?
believe or not believe
i know what youre thinking!
crazy thinking,right
crazy,when something goes crazy in universe
it becomes miracle
you know why
because you cant explain it
can you explain philocrazy
no
because i am a miracle

Philosopher Philocrazy
 
hi leo
ahh yes im sorry but i wont tell you,well why not
the radio i was listening all of a sudden
switched itself off, the actual knob
had been moved, amazing!
i dont know i dont know
what kind of ufos are out there

Philosopher Philocrazy
 
philocrazy said:
hi leo
ahh yes im sorry but i wont tell you,well why not
the radio i was listening all of a sudden
switched itself off, the actual knob
had been moved, amazing!
i dont know i dont know
what kind of ufos are out there

Philosopher Philocrazy

Considering what is being played on the Radio's nowadays, I would not blame an Angelic Spirit for wishing to turn a Radio off; however, you seem to be worried that Invasive Spirits may be messing with you. I have asked my Angels to look in on you. Provided you are not too entirely screwed up, they will probably seek Intercession for you with the Blessed Virgin Herself.

But alittle Self Help wouldn't hurt. Find a Catholic Bookstore -- the quainter, the better, because it is the most Shabby and Rickity of the Catholic Bookstores that have the Most Saintly Proprietors with the Neatest Stuff. Get Holy Water, Holy Salt, a Crucifix for each door into the House, and a statue or picture of the Blessed Virgin for each Room. Ask for a Brown Scapular and hang on it both a "Miraculous Medal" and a Saint Benedict Medal (which is used in Exorcisms). Of course, this is just a preliminary shopping List. A knowledgable Proprietor of a Catholic Bookstore will certainly know all the details of 'Fweng Shi-ing' a House for Spiritual Protection.

You might not be Catholic, but it would not take much of a donation to have a Catholic Priest come out and Bless the place. Again, ask around at the Catholic Bookstores. Theoretically all Priests are supposed to be the same, but in the Real World, some are better at it than others.
 
Yes do tell. philocrazy. And please indicate what state of mind you were in at the time...such as normal or depressed or excited or stoned or intoxicated or tired.

Nevermind...I just read about the radio turning itself off. Not terribly interesting. Were you alone in the room? Maybe you forgot that you turned it off yourself? Don't get too upset about it. Probably a very logical explanation.

Curious that the sun danced and jiggled for about 12 minutes in the sky during that fatima miracle yet no one else around the world saw anything unusual.
 
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mario said:
Curious that the sun danced and jiggled for about 12 minutes in the sky during that fatima miracle yet no one else around the world saw anything unusual.

But for 500 Square Miles it did. That is part of the Miracle. Over this one select Patch of Earth People experienced a Miracle. Many said it seemed like the Sun appeared to dive toward the Earth as though it was going to crash. Yes, I am certain that the Earth did not suddenly carreen from its orbit.

but it is a Miracle, no, that Our Lady can get so profoundly into People's Heads?

Then there is the Wet Clothes and Mud to consider. After 18 hours of rain on a muddy field and dirt roads, how in any natural way can all the Coats, Shirts, pants, underwear, socks and shoes, and mud puddles dry up in 12 minutes. Some Socialist Journalists who were unconvinced by the Miracle of the Sun which they dismissed as an Impressive but Trivial Hallucination, were converted by the Dry Mud and the Dry Socks and Shoes. It was October, and they had been shivering cold and wet. Suddenly they were dry and comfortable. That was Real.
 
Along with their dry clothes shouldn't they have also had 3rd degree sunburns as well?
 
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