Military Events in Syria and Iraq Thread #4

[CptBork]

Since Sculptor just can't get over this idea that everyone who opposes Russia in Syria is an ISIS agent, surely he must have an explanation for its existence that predates the 2003 US invasion of Iraq. If Israel was suspected of supporting ISIS at the time, why did neither G.W. Bush, Obama, nor anyone else of note on the entire planet mention that? All I ever heard at the time were complaints that America was doing Israel's bidding and therefore deserved the ISIS terror, where were the contrary voices claiming there's more to the picture?

Maybe then one can claim that the US was indeed taking orders from Israel in Iraq. Why then would Israel send ISIS to attack US forces supposedly happily doing its bidding? Ok, let's pop some LSD and go even further down the rabbit hole. Maybe Israel sent ISIS to attack US forces so the US would feel compelled to stay in Iraq. Why then did not a single US soldier or officer of note complain that Israel is sending people to kill them in Iraq, why did none of the insurgent prisoners mention anything about Israeli support, and why was the US happy to finish ISIS off (or so it seemed at the time) by handing the country to a staunchly anti-American, pro-Iranian government?

These dumbass layman conspiracy theories only make sense when you assume the perpetrators are both more brilliant than Napoleon, Wellington, Sun Tzu and every other great general or admiral in history, and simultaneously less perceptive than a typical elementary school pupil.

 

[pjdude1219]

The irrelevant rant of some dude is ignored.

in otherwords you got shown you were wrong and cut and run because you cant defend your conspiracy theories.

 

[Schmelzer]

1) What makes you think ISIS is the only rebel force near the Israeli border? What's your source on rebel concentrations and allegiances?

The IS is the only remaining rebel force yet fighting near the demarcation line. With all other forces, the Syrian army has already made peace. Those members of them who wanted to continue to fight are either in Idlib or have joined IS.

2) Who was supporting ISIS and allowing it to operate in Syria during the US occupation of Iraq?

The IS was essentially founded in a US POW camp. The first and most important support was, of course, to free the leadership, which was done by the US. There are a lot of sides who have, in various form, supported IS.

3) If Israel were supporting ISIS, why does Putin not personally say anything about it? Why does he treat Israel like it's worthy of a deal while treating the US like it's a nuissance?

Your fantasies about how he is treating different countries don't matter.

4) If Palestinians fighting Assad in Syria are automatically labeled ISIS because they don't take their orders from droopy-eyed white people, are Palestinians in Gaza fighting for ISIS too?

Nobody is automatically labeled IS. The IS is a quite rigid organization, you have to swear an oath to join, and there are no alliances - who does not swear the oath is enemy. Palestinians who have taken the oath are labeled IS, else not.

5) ...Is that why most Russian bombs fell on the secular opposition instead?

Nonsense. There was essentially no secular opposition at all, except for some irrelevant parts of the FSA - even most of the nominally FSA were jihadists. Some Turkmen gangs in Latakia were supported by Turkish Grey Wolves, which are fascists, which is the closest thing to secular. The main forces, essentially all of them, were jihadists, which supported Sharia law.

ISIS hates Jews and Israel more than anyone else on the planet. Anyone who thinks otherwise is completely batshit insane. ISIS also knows they don't have the power to defeat Israel militarily, and they're already overwhelmed with the forces they're fighting as is, hence as they've openly stated several times, the fight with Israel is for another day.

Fantasies. Everybody, even a Jew, can become a member of IS. All he has to do is to become a Moslem (which is easy - you have to repeat three times that there is only one God, Allah and that Mohammed is his prophet), and then to take another oath to join IS. Everybody else is enemy. Given that the main support for IS comes from Saudi Arabia, and Saudi Arabia is the closest Arab ally of Israel, there is no base to think that Israel is the most hated enemy.

But the second half is a nice try to explain why the IS does not really fight Israel.

Since Sculptor just can't get over this idea that everyone who opposes Russia in Syria is an ISIS agent, surely he must have an explanation for its existence that predates the 2003 US invasion of Iraq. If Israel was suspected of supporting ISIS at the time, why did neither G.W. Bush, Obama, nor anyone else of note on the entire planet mention that?

Strawman. See above about the creation of the IS. Israel supports all terrorists who fight in Arab countries because they want all those Arab countries destroyed. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. They are sure that they are strong enough to face Arab countries controlled by such terrorists because such terrorist rule leads to destruction, and this is what they like. There is no "Israel created/send ISIS", they simply support the terrorists, all of them. If several gangs hate each other and fight each other, they support them all - their fighting destroys the land of the enemy, which is what counts.

in otherwords you got shown you were wrong and cut and run because you cant defend your conspiracy theories.

No, there was simply no content at all beyond primitive scolding and some irrelevant fantasy claims without any supporting evidence. Nothing to answer.

 

[iceaura]

If Israel was suspected of supporting ISIS at the time, why did neither G.W. Bush, Obama, nor anyone else of note on the entire planet mention that? All I ever heard at the time were complaints that America was doing Israel's bidding and therefore deserved the ISIS terror, where were the contrary voices claiming there's more to the picture?

On the left media and analysis sources, that was a fairly common topic of discussion - some gave it more credibility than others, nobody regarded it as absurd or impossible. Israel does do that kind of stuff.

Maybe then one can claim that the US was indeed taking orders from Israel in Iraq. Why then would Israel send ISIS to attack US forces supposedly happily doing its bidding?

Taking orders is not the common presumption. Being manipulated is.

Maybe Israel sent ISIS to attack US forces so the US would feel compelled to stay in Iraq. Why then did not a single US soldier or officer of note complain that Israel is sending people to kill them in Iraq, why did none of the insurgent prisoners mention anything about Israeli support,

Nobody is assuming either the US or ISIS forces would be aware of Israeli manipulations.

and why was the US happy to finish ISIS off (or so it seemed at the time) by handing the country to a staunchly anti-American, pro-Iranian government?

The US was not happy about that. The US spent a decade in Iraq trying to prevent that, by all means fair and foul.

If several gangs hate each other and fight each other, they support them all - their fighting destroys the land of the enemy, which is what counts.

Like Putin in Western politics. And maybe Ukraine? Appearances suggest - - - - .
Which he did not need to arrange in Syria - being in the happier position of picking up the pieces.

 

[CptBork]

On the left media and analysis sources, that was a fairly common topic of discussion - some gave it more credibility than others, nobody regarded it as absurd or impossible. Israel does do that kind of stuff.

If Israel were to "do that kind of stuff" to American soldiers fighting in Iraq, there would be an extraordinary risk to its most important alliance which would pose an existential risk to the state. Against such extraordinary risks, there are no credible extraordinary claims coming from anyone who was actually responsible for anything in Iraq, including the soldiers and officers stationed there. I don't hear about legions of embittered soldiers upset that Israel sabotaged their tour of duty in Baghdad, so why would the Left find such talk credible? What would Israel gain by encouraging the US to invade Iraq and then bogging it down to the point of driving the US out of the region in exhaustion?

I'm sure Israel has made all kinds of shady business and diplomatic deals in the past like so many other nations have, but no one has explained why a reasonable person should believe they'd be stupid enough to commit needless acts of war against their most dependable and most important ally. Practically all the evidence and claims to that effect come from racist and politically radical blogs, and non-uniformed individuals who could just as easily tell stories about working at Area 51 as they could about witnessing Israelis supporting Al Qaeda, or deliberately attacking the USS Liberty to stop it from somehow listening to Egyptian prisoners being allegedly massacred inside a walled prison hundreds of miles away.

Taking orders is not the common presumption. Being manipulated is.

How would they do that? By convincing Al Qaeda that Americans and their allies are occupying traditional Muslim soil, and that Americans love to consume bacon? Shhhh, don't tell anyone. Overtly I've seen 100x more support for Al Qaeda coming from radical Leftist circles than I've ever seen coming from Zionists, they called America criminal for fighting Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.

Nobody is assuming either the US or ISIS forces would be aware of Israeli manipulations.

Why wouldn't they be aware, if some 400lb dude on a computer who hasn't seen the sun in 3 years (or bathed in the last 2) knows all about it?

The US was not happy about that. The US spent a decade in Iraq trying to prevent that, by all means fair and foul.

And not once did any of them blame Israel for causing the mission to fail, nor inquire into whether that was possibly the case. In mainstream Leftist circles all the blame was on Israel for Bush's decision to declare war in the first place, not for ending it and handing the country to Iran.

 

[iceaura]

I'm sure Israel has made all kinds of shady business and diplomatic deals in the past like so many other nations have, but no one has explained why a reasonable person should believe they'd be stupid enough to commit needless acts of war against their most dependable and most important ally.

Because it worked before, for manipulation etc. The false flag stuff has been quite effective - not stupid at all.
Look, Israel knows very well that the US is not a reliable ally of anything Jewish. There is a strong line of anti-Semitism in the US, and it's not nuanced. They have kept the US on board by great effort and sophisticated politics, and there is no reason to think that the effort and politics have been entirely above board.

If Israel were to "do that kind of stuff" to American soldiers fighting in Iraq, there would be an extraordinary risk to its most important alliance which would pose an existential risk to the state

Doesn't seem to have been that high a risk - apparently they can count on Americans to refuse to even consider obvious possibilities. They have excellent connections in the US military and intelligence agencies. And the existence of their State depends on taking risks like that - always has.

Why wouldn't they be aware, if some 400lb dude on a computer who hasn't seen the sun in 3 years (or bathed in the last 2) knows all about it?

You apparently never even heard of the possibility - and this is years later. So how would a soldier getting all their news from Fox and CNN become informed? Most of them voted for W, remember.
A lot of the interrogation personnel and consultants the US used in Iraq, as well as techniques etc, were Israeli. They were the local experts, see? Make of that what you will.

In mainstream Leftist circles all the blame was on Israel for Bush's decision to declare war in the first place,

Oh bullshit. The left had the neoliberal agenda down pat from jump - Israeli influence in proportion. (Now you're telling me what "mainstream Leftists" were talking about in 2003, after never having heard of the possibility of Israel occasionally supporting Sunni jihadists on the QT? )

I'm sure Israel has made all kinds of shady business and diplomatic deals in the past like so many other nations have,

And run false flag terrorist operations, fielded assassination squads in foreign countries, operated a sub rosa nuclear weapons development program, dealt arms and acted as a middleman for arms deals planetwide, and so forth.

Look, I've got no particular animosity toward Israel. I think it's a tragic mistake of a country, unlikely to end well, but it's not as evil as some of its enemies and I hope for the best. Nevertheless, there is no reason to give it a pass on this stuff. Its occupation of the Golan Heights is not good, not right, not justified or ok. And neither is its role in Syria, or Iraq.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Look, Israel knows very well that the US is not a reliable ally of anything Jewish.

LoL
whos' book are you preaching from ?

There is a strong line of anti-Semitism in the US, and it's not nuanced.

you mean the cold war nuclear missile program and nasa ?
patriotism etc etc...

which book is this verse from ?

They have kept the US on board by great effort and sophisticated politics

Tricky jews being all tricky and clever.

soo your saying that Team American World Police do not wish to have a regional trade front shop & political partner in the middle east that secures the christian centre of civilisation ?

because your comments sound kinda cult-ish conspiracy nut job kinda language.
but i am not totaly convinced your a complete nut-job which is why im posting this because there is likely some type of thought process underneath your obvious lies.
i just wonder what it is.
fundermentalism ?

 

[iceaura]

soo your saying that Team American World Police do not wish to have a regional trade front shop & political partner in the middle east that secures the christian centre of civilisation ?

Sure they do. But they are not necessarily on board with anything Jewish - that takes some manipulation, some political meddling. Something like Saddam Hussein is more their natural style.

Tricky jews being all tricky and clever.

Zionists, actually. Yep. Although teaching the world how to use car bombs, back in the day, may not have been the wisest move.

 

[CptBork]

Zionists, actually. Yep. Although teaching the world how to use car bombs, back in the day, may not have been the wisest move.

The Irish Republican Army, among others, was using such tactics before there was even such a thing as the British Mandate of Palestine.

 

[iceaura]

The Irish Republican Army, among others, was using such tactics before there was even such a thing as the British Mandate of Palestine.

These guys launched the modern era:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group)
They were innovative.
It's difficult to find even a mention of an IRA car bomb - and nothing equivalent to Middle East standards of slaughter and destruction - until a couple of decades or more after WWII. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Plan Note the absence of car bombs) The first use by the IRA of ammonium nitrate - the big step up - was early 1970s, and coincided with the adoption (with some improvements) of the car bomb as developed in the Middle East.

Zionist terrorism included false flag and anonymous car (and at least one donkey) bombings in Syria and related regions from the founding of Israel to - possibly - the present day. Several Israeli government officials - including elected Prime Ministers - have come from Israeli terrorist organizations connected with them and related terrorist acts.

It's just the record. It doesn't make Israel especially evil, in the region. But it is the context in which acts of terrorism are evaluated in the Middle East and especially in Syria, Lebanon, etc.

(For the US contribution to false flag car bombings and similar stuff, including in the early days of US involvement in Vietnam, one can begin here: http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/76140/)

 

[pjdude1219]

The Irish Republican Army, among others, was using such tactics before there was even such a thing as the British Mandate of Palestine.

The IRA didn't really become a terrorist organization until the creation of the Provision Irish Republican Army in 1969.
the Lehi were active in the 40's. in fact the first use of a car bomb in recorded history by a group widely recognized as terrorist group was the use by the lehi. in fact it was the first major bombing that actually used a car


https://jalopnik.com/5529933/the-history-of-the-car-bomb

 

[CptBork]

Yes I don't deny that there were many Israelis who resorted to terrorism to accomplish their goals, and I agree that it's nothing special compared to what just about every other country has done in its history, but nevertheless... Planting bombs in public places has been an IRA favourite for over 100 years, and as far as car bombs specifically, not only does the IRA have a history of it which may or may not date to the 1970's, but looking at the 1920's, 30's and 40's, you've apparently never heard of a guy named Al Capone.

As far as proven or widely suspected Israeli false flag attacks and assassinations on foreign soil, I'm not aware of any Americans having been targeted in any such attacks, unless they were working on Iran's nuclear program or Saddam Hussein's super cannon, or if they had Palestinian citizenship and participated in the 1972 Munich Olympic massacre. Otherwise, even if the worst accusations from 400lb basement bloggers were true, going after the entire population of Jews and Israelis for it would make about as much sense as deporting everyone in New Jersey over to Sicily.

 

[CptBork]

The IRA didn't really become a terrorist organization until the creation of the Provision Irish Republican Army in 1969.
the Lehi were active in the 40's. in fact the first use of a car bomb in recorded history by a group widely recognized as terrorist group was the use by the lehi. in fact it was the first major bombing that actually used a car


https://jalopnik.com/5529933/the-history-of-the-car-bomb

Forget 1969, forget the 1940's, the IRA and its precursors have a history of terrorism that dates back prior to WW1. Sinn Fein would be very upset to find out you didn't know about it. Also your link proves Lehi weren't the first to use car bombs (including big ones), although I was originally referring to bombs assassinating people in their cars, not cars turned into giant bombs to blow up streets.

 

[pjdude1219]

Forget 1969, forget the 1940's, the IRA and its precursors have a history of terrorism that dates back prior to WW1. Sinn Fein would be very upset to find out you didn't know about it.

i stand corrected on this and only this mark.

Also your link proves Lehi weren't the first to use car bombs (including big ones),

it does no such thing. this is in fact a lie. it mentions only one bombing prior to the lehi which used a horse drawn carriage. which is hardly a car bomb.
from my source

It was not replicated, as far as I have been able to determine, until January 12, 1947 when the Stern Gang drove a truckload of explosives into a British police station in Haifa, Palestine, killing 4 and injuring 140. The Stern Gang (a pro-fascist splinter group led by Avraham Stern that broke away from the right-wing Zionist paramilitary Irgun) would soon use truck and car bombs to kill Palestinians as well: a creative atrocity immediately reciprocated by British deserters fighting on the side of Palestinian nationalists.

although I was originally referring to bombs assassinating people in their cars, not cars turned into giant bombs to blow up streets.

than it behooves you to clarify that, in modern usuage the term car bomb is almost always going to be viewed as the later rather than the former.

 

[iceaura]

and as far as car bombs specifically, not only does the IRA have a history of it which may or may not date to the 1970's, but looking at the 1920's, 30's and 40's, you've apparently never heard of a guy named Al Capone.

Al Capone planted bombs in cars. That's not what we're talking about.
All I said was, the Israelis teaching the world how to use a car bomb was maybe not the wisest thing to do. Ok?

As far as proven or widely suspected Israeli false flag attacks and assassinations on foreign soil, I'm not aware of any Americans having been targeted in any such attacks,

But many Syrians, Iraqis, Lebanese, etc, have been killed by them. Israeli terrorism is a longstanding and currently relevant factor in Syria and neighboring States. So that's the context of such events in Syria and Iraq - false flag by Israelis is always a realistic possibility, not a wild conspiracy presumption.

 

[CptBork]

But many Syrians, Iraqis, Lebanese, etc, have been killed by them. Israeli terrorism is a longstanding and currently relevant factor in Syria and neighboring States. So that's the context of such events in Syria and Iraq - false flag by Israelis is always a realistic possibility, not a wild conspiracy presumption.

You're talking about false flag attacks (or no-flag attacks) which kill less than 4 people at a time, sometimes only one, and these are people who belong to countries at war with Israel and who were allegedly up to something involving murdering Israelis and Jews. That's a galaxy far, far away from what you speculate on, which would be attacks killing and wounding thousands of American soldiers allied with the Israeli cause and risking war and/or economic and political isolation with its most important and only dependable ally, relying on every single person in a position of active authority to remain hush-hush about even the slightest details or to be completely ignorant of it altogether.

So yes, you're making a wild conspiracy presumption that sounds even crazier than what Sculptor and Schmelzer are pushing. Does Occam's razor mean nothing to you?

 

[CptBork]

Al Capone planted bombs in cars. That's not what we're talking about.
All I said was, the Israelis teaching the world how to use a car bomb was maybe not the wisest thing to do. Ok?

Based on the resources I've looked at, most Israelis at the time would have agreed with you based on their condemnations, but I suppose they had bigger fish to fry rather than fighting a civil war over it. Hezbollah could use the same lesson- they taught terror and tunnel tactics to Hamas, those same tactics were passed on to the Syrian rebellion and allowed it to survive for more than 7 years thus far despite Russia blowing up practically every school, marketplace and hospital and covering for the Assad regime using poison gas. At this point, more Syrian and Hezbollah soldiers have died from car bombs and the follow-on attacks they enabled than pretty much anyone else, US included.

 

[CptBork]

Maps don't seem to be forthcoming from Schmelzer today, so I'll fill in for him.

Not much happening on the combat front, a couple of terrorist babies had their lungs blown out before they could kill any Christians. Otherwise, China just donated another $50 to the "Rebuild Syria for All Syrians!" Kickstarter, bringing the grand total thus far to \$13,500 in defiance of foolish American expectations of failure.

 

[pjdude1219]

You're talking about false flag attacks (or no-flag attacks) which kill less than 4 people at a time, sometimes only one, and these are people who belong to countries at war with Israel and who were allegedly up to something involving murdering Israelis and Jews. That's a galaxy far, far away from what you speculate on, which would be attacks killing and wounding thousands of American soldiers allied with the Israeli cause and risking war and/or economic and political isolation with its most important and only dependable ally, relying on every single person in a position of active authority to remain hush-hush about even the slightest details or to be completely ignorant of it altogether.

So yes, you're making a wild conspiracy presumption that sounds even crazier than what Sculptor and Schmelzer are pushing. Does Occam's razor mean nothing to you?

no other country in the middle east is as hostile to the united states interests and the united states as Israel. their was the whole pollard debacle which got people killed and compromised our security. they've murdered our sailors with the liberty. they are military tech to china. you might be convinced of their perfect innocence because your religious beliefs. some of us aren't so naive.

 

[CptBork]

no other country in the middle east is as hostile to the united states interests and the united states as Israel. their was the whole pollard debacle which got people killed and compromised our security. they've murdered our sailors with the liberty. they are military tech to china. you might be convinced of their perfect innocence because your religious beliefs. some of us aren't so naive.

Sorry PJ, I don't have any religious beliefs and I don't think Israel is innocent. There's no existing proof that the Liberty was sunk on purpose, and no motive for it. America already knew Israel was planning to attack the Golan, because Israel had already informed the President and other top officials. If there was going to be a massacre of captured Egyptian prisoners hundreds of miles away inside a facility, the Liberty had no means of "listening" to that. Off-the-record interviews by retired sailors about classified documents they can't reproduce does not constitute proof of anything, anymore than all the bullshit about Israel planning 9/11 or America hiding UFO's.

Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Pakistan, Lebanon and numerous other countries, or large majorities of their citizens, openly call for death to America and/or its citizens, and are directly responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Americans in the same span of time that Israel killed a few dozen and immediately apologized. Russia is directly and indirectly responsible for tens of thousands more, and were once minutes away from blanketing the US with nuclear annihilation, not so long before the Liberty incident as I recall. Nowadays they seek to make a living by selling weapons to people who want to kill you, and invade nations who try to befriend you. Plus they tried to kill a few hundred yankees in Syria just a few months ago as you must be aware, and Putin was informed about it well in advance. You rightfully complain about cases of Israel selling American tech to China, but that's a drop in the bucket compared to what China steals directly from the US (and oh by the way, China has also killed tens of thousands of Americans).

So where exactly do you get off, calling Israel America's worst enemy in the middle east? Why are you trying to make this personal by insinuating I've got some dumbass superstitious reason to disagree?