Military Events in Syria and Iraq thread #3

[joepistole]

Do you know the difference between terrorism and revolution?

The short answer is no, he doesn't know or at least doesn't want to know the difference between terrorism and revolution nor does he want to know. For comrade Schmelzer and his beloved Mother Putin, everyone who disagrees with Mother Putin is a terrorist even honest hardworking Russians.

Ironically, the biggest terrorist is Mother Putin. He murdered thousands of people in order to become Russia's dictator. Russians have never really understood the difference between dissidents and terrorists.

 

[joepistole]

Yes. If you like it, you name it revolution, if you don't like it, you name it terrorism.

I agree. The reason for the "revolution" hasn't gone away, it sits in the US and Saudi Arabia. But I have, nonetheless, some hope that it will be over after some time. At least Saudi Arabia has quite big own problems in Yemen, so it may decide to stop to remain a reason for "revolution" in Syria.


No. I'm simple about the technique of carpet bombardments of civilians in big towns, with other military means to take them. This is a classical anglo-american technique. Russia has not used it, nor in WW II, nor in Afghanistan, nor in Chechnya. The Western propaganda is suggesting, at least in Germany openly claiming, that Russia/Syria use this technique in Aleppo. Which is a propaganda lie.

No, Falludsha played not a big role at all in the war itself. Falludsha became famous for another operation, at 2004, one against terrorists, with full agreement of the Iraq government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallujah,_The_Hidden_Massacre

Unfortunately for you comrade the world isn't as dumb as you and your beloved Mother Putin need it to be. That's why Russia under Putin's control has become a pariah state.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union due to it's own mismanagement the world has been paying big time with many countries moving from Dictatorships, Monarchies and towards democracy. Even Russia has been and is attempting to put some form of legitimate democratic system in place.
It is often underestimated just how difficult transitioning to a successful democracy actually is.

One of the key areas that needs to be included is that constitutionally an elected leader may only serve for two terms, after which can not longer participate in the leadership. Thus limiting the fallout due to incompetence, corruption and providing a future relief for those systemically aggrieved.
With out this provision a dictatorship disguised as democracy can flourish.

Justification by historical comparisons:
Suffice to say that so much has changed in the last 30 years or so that to hearken back to the "good 'ole days" constantly as Schmelzer wishes to do, constantly making comparisons to , they did this and they did that so it's ok for us to do it now is entirely unhelpful.

One could suggest that since 9/11 USA foreign policy has been undergoing a revolution culminating in the "minimal intervention" approach of the Obama administration. Of course in doing so one must first acknowledge that the old way is no longer appropriate. That the old way was ineffective, inefficient and uneconomical when considering the primary goals of assisting people towards existential freedom and ultimately prosperity.
It is true that USA activities have, due to over "enthusiasm" for their cause, been instrumental in apparently generating unnecessary hardship but let us not forget that the USA is only one of many Western nations guilty of the same thing.

Paranoia concerning national security is not just the province of Russia, China or North Korea etc.


To me I look at that video of Aleppo and see old methods being employed on a grand scale. Fortunately the Western world has moved on from such actions as it is totally ineffective, inefficient and uneconomical as learned from bitter experience. The sheer cost of this war in Syria is staggering when you consider the humanitarian, social, material and ongoing future calls for justice and revenge are considered.

Assad and his family dynasty should have stood down and elections called with out Assad running for office, as soon as the revolution began. Syria is NOT Assad and his family. Syria is for all Syrians.
Erdagon of Turkey should like wise step down and call elections with out his or his families nomination. Turkey is NOT Erdagon, Turkey is for the Turkish people.

...and when Russia undergoes another revolution, which is inevitable, I wonder whether Putin will put the interests of all Russians for Russia at the forefront and step down and not run for a return to office...or will he fight to the last man to cling to power?

The crimes committed will not go away ( for both sides ) however it is the major actors that will eventually have to be held accountable due to the greater degree of responsibility that they own.
This is why I ask:
Is the destruction of Aleppo the best Russia (NOT only Putin) can come up with?
Is Russia so bereft of creative positive solutions, that only destructive solutions are possible?

Is constructive creativity dead in Russia?

 

[Schmelzer]

Suffice to say that so much has changed in the last 30 years or so that to hearken back to the "good 'ole days" constantly as Schmelzer wishes to do, constantly making comparisons to , they did this and they did that so it's ok for us to do it now is entirely unhelpful.

Yet another one who starts to lie about what I write, and, again, is doing this without any evidence in form of a linked quote? So, please some explicit links to quotes where I want back some "good 'ole days".

Of course, I have observed a lot of shifts in US internal politics toward totalitarianism, and a general increase in violations of international law by all Western states. But this does not mean that I want back some "good old days". Because I see also a lot of progress. The internet becomes more powerful, and the population increasingly aware that the mainstream media lie in a systematic, intentional and organized way. I certainly don't want communism back, as well as the Cold War where one is not even allowed to travel around the world. And I also don't want to have back the unipolar world which immediately followed.

Actually, the world is in a crisis, with a danger of complete destruction by a nuclear war, but with a hope that, instead, we obtain a multipolar world, based on a revived, civilized international law, which is only in a formal aspect - the rule of international law - some revival of the past, but not in its content, because war, which was a legitimate choice of states in the past, will no longer be an option.

To me I look at that video of Aleppo and see old methods being employed on a grand scale. Fortunately the Western world has moved on from such actions as it is totally ineffective, inefficient and uneconomical as learned from bitter experience. The sheer cost of this war in Syria is staggering when you consider the humanitarian, social, material and ongoing future calls for justice and revenge are considered.

Here you fall back into propaganda mode. The West has moved on? Not at all. Supporting despicable terrorists, fundamentalist, Nazis and other scum? These are just the "good 'ole methods" of the Great Game of British colonialism, divide et impera.

Assad and his family dynasty should have stood down and elections called with out Assad running for office, as soon as the revolution began. Syria is NOT Assad and his family. Syria is for all Syrians.
Erdagon of Turkey should like wise step down and call elections with out his or his families nomination. Turkey is NOT Erdagon, Turkey is for the Turkish people.
...and when Russia undergoes another revolution, which is inevitable, I wonder whether Putin will put the interests of all Russians for Russia at the forefront and step down and not run for a return to office...or will he fight to the last man to cling to power?

And this from a guy who sells the rule of a few dynasties (Bushs, Clintons) to circumvent these "8 years only" formality, a state which supports monarchies like Saudi Arabia which distribute terrorism all over the world? And now, after these Saudis have mass murdered in Yemen but seem to loose, starts to participate in the war on the side of the aggressors and murderers?

Sorry, but this represents simply the dream of the US - to be able to remove anybody anywhere from power once they no longer like him.

Is the destruction of Aleppo the best Russia (NOT only Putin) can come up with?

It is not Aleppo which is destroyed, but the terrorists in Aleppo. And, indeed, Russia has not yet invented a better method to handle terrorists, once they have started to murder people, than to kill them. And if there are too much of them, with too strong support from the US and their murderous allies, this is a very hard and difficult fight, with a lot of collateral damage being unavoidable.

And, no, Russia does not support the Western "positive solution" of terrorism by giving terrorists money, weapons, training, and supporting their fight with their airforce.

Is constructive creativity dead in Russia?

No. If it would be dead, Russia would be today in the same state as the Ukraine. Ruled by the US, or some fascist US puppets, much poorer because everything is owned by a few oligarchs or directly the American firms, subdivided into many small states, which are not a danger for the world rule of the US empire.

What we have instead is a state strong enough to defend itself as well as its allies against the greatest danger to peace which actually exists, the US.

 

[Quantum Quack]

I think you will find that Russians will decide and not Putin as to the fate of the Russian world and who exactly is the greatest threat. Probably a lot sooner than any one would anticipate. Yes Russians too, have access to international web space, sure they might need to access it clandestinely, and I am sure they can see the "spin" "fraud" Putin is trying to put over them.
There is one thing about human nature that Putin, ISIL, yourself and even his mate Trump fail to understand....one thing that humans have demonstrated for thousands of years... so bring it on is all I can say...so that we can all see it tested in action yet again...

"Better to die a free man , than to live as a slave" ~ Attributed to Frederick Douglass

 

[Quantum Quack]

No. If it would be dead, Russia would be today in the same state as the Ukraine. Ruled by the US, or some fascist US puppets, much poorer because everything is owned by a few oligarchs or directly the American firms, subdivided into many small states, which are not a danger for the world rule of the US empire.

The above is very telling of the sort of psychology you and Putin share...
You claim the USA rules or is a ruler and that is so blatantly wrong. The USA or the UK or France or whoever, do not rule. The idea of "rule" predates ww2 and demonstrates a Tzar-ist, Ottoman, Ancient Roman mentality...democratically elected governments do not "rule" , they govern on behalf of the people.

Why are you fixated on the notion of "ruler" or "ruling"?

 

[Schmelzer]

I think you will find that Russians will decide and not Putin as to the fate of the Russian world and who exactly is the greatest threat. Probably a lot sooner than any one would anticipate. Yes Russians too, have access to international web space, sure they might need to access it clandestinely, and I am sure they can see the "spin" "fraud" Putin is trying to put over them.

LOL, you obviously know nothing about the Russian web, given that you think the Russians "might need to access it clandestinely". The Russian web is sufficiently free, all the pros and cons are openly discussed in many blogs, in comparison this forum is a very one-sided one. Russians know the position and the argumentation of the West, there are enough pro-Western media there to distribute them, the West is simply no longer able to control the media, that is the main difference.

And you don't understand how the Russian media control actually works. It is not at all the stupid communist idea not to allow any bourgeois propaganda. The Russians have learned the lesson of the Soviet loss in the informational war. They have initially simply taken over some important Western-controlled media, resulting in a great Western outcry a la no longer any freedom of press. But the question is, of course, what you do with the media you control. To forbid the distribution of any uncomfortable facts and ideas does not work, and the Russians have understood this. So, they present their news, including all those the West does not like, but also those the West likes - but from the Russian point of view. And all those Western arguments are in no way forbidden, but freely discussed - only with sufficient argumentative power on the Russian side.

And it was, instead, the Western side which repeated after 1990 the communist error of "not giving these evil guys a platform". It started with pedophiles and Holocaust deniers, it covered more and more evil guys, and today almost everybody risks to be such an evil guy for some "racist" or "sexist" or "hate" speech.

Together with some cheap propaganda that the West "democratically elected governments do not "rule" , they govern on behalf of the people", you try to shift this into the domain of psychology:

The above is very telling of the sort of psychology you and Putin share...
You claim the USA rules or is a ruler and that is so blatantly wrong. ....Why are you fixated on the notion of "ruler" or "ruling"?

The question is easy to answer, the cause of the "fixation" is that the US elites are fixated on ruling the world. And it is the nature of free people that they don't want to be ruled. Not even by those who "govern on behalf of the people", even if this would be reality and not a propaganda phrase.

I'm "fixated" on my own freedom. Point. Russia does not propose enough freedom to me to be a good choice for me. The US even less. But, even if I care, essentially, only about my own freedom, I recognize that I will have much more freedom in a multipolar world, instead of a unipolar US-ruled world. This US-ruled world I have tried, and it has shown clear evidence of restricting my personal freedom more and more. The multipolar world offers much more freedom. Simply because even the big powers of this world will not try to unify mankind into a homogeneous soup without any culture but Hollywood culture, but they would not care at all about various very different cultures in different parts of the world. They would not "rule" these other parts, but peacefully cooperate with them.

 

[CptBork]

See, that's the thing with Russians like Schmelzer. As he himself openly admits, they have the mentality that if I make and sell a better ice cream than they do, it means I'm enslaving my customers and "forcing" them to only buy my product. America has the right to develop relations with whoever they want, and those countries have the right in turn to choose whoever they want as trade and diplomatic partners rather than being forced to buy inferior junk from lazy Russians.

 

[Quantum Quack]

The question is easy to answer, the cause of the "fixation" is that the US elites are fixated on ruling the world. And it is the nature of free people that they don't want to be ruled. Not even by those who "govern on behalf of the people", even if this would be reality and not a propaganda phrase.

By what method do these US elites rule? How do they take away peoples freedom to choose do you think?

 

[Quantum Quack]

See, that's the thing with Russians like Schmelzer. As he himself openly admits, they have the mentality that if I make and sell a better ice cream than they do, it means I'm enslaving my customers and "forcing" them to only buy my product. America has the right to develop relations with whoever they want, and those countries have the right in turn to choose whoever they want as trade and diplomatic partners rather than being forced to buy inferior junk from lazy Russians.

Yes I was seeing that in his posts... hmmm...
So it's like this:
If I make a better Ice cream at a cheaper price that people actually have high regard for then I am guilty according to Schmelzer of world domination of the ice cream market... ( and Russian Vodka market as well no doubt. hmm... vodka icecream...mmmmmm)

 

[Quantum Quack]

I believe one of the reasons for the political upheaval in the Ukraine ( just prior to their recent troubles) was due to the government refusing to buy superior and cheaper product from the West. The people favored products from the West but the Government was a puppet for Putin and wished to force the people to subsidize Russia's inferior commodities. There for deliberately restricting consumer choice and not protecting it.

Euromaidan (/ˌjʊərəˌmaɪˈdɑːn, ˌjʊəroʊ-/;[73][74] Ukrainian: Євромайдан, Russian: Евромайдан, Yevromaidan, literally "Euro[pean] Square"[nb 6]) was a wave of demonstrations and civil unrest in Ukraine, which began on the night of 21 November 2013 with public protests in Maidan Nezalezhnosti ("Independence Square") in Kiev, demanding closer European integration.
~ wiki​

 

[Schmelzer]

By what method do these US elites rule?

Soft power in form of controlled democracy: You control the media (covered by "freedom of press" talk the US oligarchs have the freedom to buy the big media), the NSA gives you sufficient information for blackmailing all politicians. If they refuse to behave like the US wants, the US-controlled media use the material to finish him.

If this is not sufficient, color revolutions: Also supported by the media, but no longer with much "democratic" cover, except in the propaganda.

If "peaceful" protest is not sufficient, permanent escalation toward a civil war, with insurgents supported with money, instruction, weapons. The last possibility is open war.

Yes I was seeing that in his posts... hmmm...
So it's like this:
If I make a better Ice cream at a cheaper price that people actually have high regard for then I am guilty according to Schmelzer of world domination of the ice cream market... ( and Russian Vodka market as well no doubt. hmm... vodka icecream...mmmmmm)

You are confused by your own belief into Western propaganda. I have no problem at all with buying Western icecream if it is nice and worth its price. I have also no problem at all with the people making a revolution against unwanted dictators, I was myself a participant of such a revolution, 1989 in Eastern Germany. If the world would be as described by the Western media, the US would be fine, and Putin an evil dictator.

But there is disagreement about the facts. I do not believe the lies of the Western media, like joepistole, CptBork and you do. I prefer to look at the other side too, to compare the arguments provided by above sides, fortunately I'm able to do this once I know Russian language quite well.

I may err about the facts, or about some of them, whatever. But, given that I believe in different facts, it is a stupid logical error to speculate about what I think based on your propaganda mems which I don't accept.

By the way, American Ice cream has no chance at all in Russia. Not because of anti-American prejudices (this starts to be an increasing problem, but in Moscow and Peter there are enough guys with pro-Western ideology which would be potential customers) but because of its quality. Italian producers would have some chance to compete, but the Russian Ice cream is good enough, and has been already in Soviet time.

And, just for your information, there was usual free market in the Ukraine, and no refusal at all to buy something from the West. What to buy was decided by the market, the price too.

And Janukowitsch was not a Putin puppet, he was an Achmetow puppet (who is an Ukrainian oligarch, with Donezk as the center of his oligarchat at that time). (You can say that he became a Putin puppet after the Nazi coup, when Putin essentially saved his life by giving him asylum. Not for free, Putin despised him too, so that he sits not in Moscow but in Rostow. But in exchange for an official request to send Russian troops to fight the fascist insurgency in Kiew against the legal, democratically elected presidency, a request which has given Russia the legal power to invade the Ukraine if necessary. But at the Maidan time and before, he was not a Putin puppet at all.)

But let's return to the topic, namely Syria.

While there has been also reported some progress in the North of Aleppo, there are also news about advances in the East, from the Aleppo airport as well as from the South-East. This may be, as I have speculated yesterday, as a "suburbs first" strategy, to kill as many terrorists in not densely populated suburbs, as a search for weak points in the terrorists defenses along several directions, with the aim to find a direction where one can start an attempt to split the terrorist-controlled regions. Even an unfinished attempt to split would be useful, given that it would weaken the overall defenses in the North as well as the mobility of the terrorists if some of their connections come under fire control.

In Hama, there are some advances toward the town Maardes. It is now under fire control and is under attack from two sides.

Then, the town Dabik has been taken by the "moderate" pro-Turkish terrorists from Daesh. This town plays some important ideological role for Daesh. So, one has to expect some counterattacks. If not, it would mean Daesh is weaker now than expected.

In East Ghouta, there is heavy fighting between the town Reyhan, which seems now completely controlled by the Syrian army, and Tel Kurdi, which is (almost or completely, anyway the remaining connection is under fire control) encircled. Information about serious losses for the terrorists, 70 killed, thus, quite serious fighting or some very successful ambush or so.

 

[Yazata]

Dabiq has fallen to the "FSA"/Turkish forces in north Syria east of Azaz.

Has the Kiingdom of God arrived? Has Allah appeared from the heavens? Do Muslims finally rule the Earth? That was what many ISIS supporters expected at what was prophesied in the Quran as the final battle between good (Islam) and evil (kufars) at Dabiq.

I'm guessing that ISIS is still expecting that final battle to be fought as Mohammed prophecied at Dabiq, and are just saying that this defeat wasn't that final battle, which is still to come.

Now I wonder if the "FSA"/Turks will push on to Al Bab, which appears to be the only significant town ISIS still holds in the far north.

 

[Schmelzer]

A new map of Aleppo, this time of the Southern parts:

together with a claim about fights in the area indicated by the arrows.

And a map from Northern Hama, where the SAA seems to have liberated another town, Ma'ardes. After this, there have been news about a counterattack, but this counterattack seems to have been stopped at the Western border of the town itself.

 

[Quantum Quack]

If the world would be as described by the Western media, the US would be fine, and Putin an evil dictator.

nah! this video of the destruction of Aleppo is all we need. No need to say much else to be honest.

Video footage of mass graves will be next I would guess...

also ...all that rubble makes great cover (and motivation) for small and effective terrorists cells of the future...
(funded no doubt, according to Schmelzer 's belief system, by Western media moguls wishing only to generate cheap headlines)

 

[CptBork]

And, just for your information, there was usual free market in the Ukraine, and no refusal at all to buy something from the West. What to buy was decided by the market, the price too.

And Janukowitsch was not a Putin puppet, he was an Achmetow puppet (who is an Ukrainian oligarch, with Donezk as the center of his oligarchat at that time). (You can say that he became a Putin puppet after the Nazi coup, when Putin essentially saved his life by giving him asylum. Not for free, Putin despised him too, so that he sits not in Moscow but in Rostow. But in exchange for an official request to send Russian troops to fight the fascist insurgency in Kiew against the legal, democratically elected presidency, a request which has given Russia the legal power to invade the Ukraine if necessary. But at the Maidan time and before, he was not a Putin puppet at all.)

Isn't it ironic how Schmelzer and other Russian propagandists take all the facts and simply invert them upside down without giving any sort of proof or verification aside from news sources created and controlled directly by Putin himself? Remember, RT (Russia Today) was founded directly on Putin's personal orders.

No, the easily established and widely-agreed fact is that Ukraine was not a free market prior to the Euromaidan, and even the Russians implicitly agreed on this. Yanukovych signed a trade deal with the EU, Putin got upset and demanded a private meeting, next thing Yanukovych immediately and single-handedly cancels a deal that took years for multiple Ukrainian officials to negotiate, immediately replacing it with more loans and junk imports from Russia. Kiev starts protesting, Yanukovych starts shooting, the protestors riot and force him out, then Russia invades like a frustrated chess player who tosses the chessboard off the table when they see that they're about to be checkmated.

Maybe I don't need to bother pointing out such simple-minded fallacies anymore, since the only people who would believe in them at this point are people who feel the need to believe in them (the alternative being to accept that America isn't responsible for making them fail in life). It's kind of like trying to talk reason at this point into anyone who still plans on voting for Trump; he could skin a cat alive on national TV and that would simply make him more "decisive" in their eyes.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Isn't it ironic how Schmelzer and other Russian propagandists take all the facts and simply invert them upside down without giving any sort of proof or verification aside from news sources created and controlled directly by Putin himself? Remember, RT (Russia Today) was founded directly on Putin's personal orders.

No, the easily established and widely-agreed fact is that Ukraine was not a free market prior to the Euromaidan, and even the Russians implicitly agreed on this. Yanukovych signed a trade deal with the EU, Putin got upset and demanded a private meeting, next thing Yanukovych immediately and single-handedly cancels a deal that took years for multiple Ukrainian officials to negotiate, immediately replacing it with more loans and junk imports from Russia. Kiev starts protesting, Yanukovych starts shooting, the protestors riot and force him out, then Russia invades like a frustrated chess player who tosses the chessboard off the table when they see that they're about to be checkmated.

Maybe I don't need to bother pointing out such simple-minded fallacies anymore, since the only people who would believe in them at this point are people who feel the need to believe in them (the alternative being to accept that America isn't responsible for making them fail in life). It's kind of like trying to talk reason at this point into anyone who still plans on voting for Trump; he could skin a cat alive on national TV and that would simply make him more "decisive" in their eyes.

I was doing a bit of research into the so called "Deep state" in Russia and realized that if you take all of Schmelzer's posts and think of them as an expose of what's happening in Russia his posts actually have some value.
I know this may be no surprise but people who live in extraordinary fearful states ( such as Donald Trump), have been known to invert or use a form of mirroring to express their concerns. It's a way that they can cope with their intense fears of persecution.

 

[Schmelzer]

nah! this video of the destruction of Aleppo is all we need.

Given that you need only propaganda for the stupid ones. Those unable to get the point that Aleppo has been destroyed over a 5 year civil war. And the first 4 years there was no Russia involved at all. Given that you obviously have recognized this point - you are IMHO not that stupid not to understand this trivial point - but nonetheless repeat it, you are [self-censored].

Isn't it ironic how Schmelzer and other Russian propagandists take all the facts and simply invert them upside down without giving any sort of proof or verification aside from news sources created and controlled directly by Putin himself? Remember, RT (Russia Today) was founded directly on Putin's personal orders.

LOL. It is you who is doing such things. I do not look TV at all, nor Western, nor RT. So, the only way for me to reach some RT is following some link, who found some particular video from RT worth to be linked. How often I have linked it here? Very seldom, almost close to zero.

But this is, reverted, what you do: No proofs at all, except Western propaganda sources.

No, the easily established and widely-agreed fact is that Ukraine was not a free market prior to the Euromaidan, and even the Russians implicitly agreed on this.

As free as usual in the West. That means, with all these quotas and tariffs and so on, things which restrict a really free market everywhere.

So, the main problem for Russia was one with tariffs. Russia has tariffs for EU imports, but Ukraine was in the Eurasian zone without tariffs. With the association Ukraine-EU, there would have been no tariffs with the EU. With the natural consequence, that Ukrainian firms could buy from EU, sell to Russia, without paying any tariffs, a nice way not to pay tariffs for import into Russia. Russia is not stupid, thus, would stop this. The only way to do this is introducing the same EU tariffs for the Ukraine too. Simple defense of the own tariffs.

That the decision to impede trade between Russia and Ukraine by tariffs, in exchange of lifting tariffs in the trade with the EU (but not the various quotas for almost everything, which have been lifted only for things not produced by the Ukraine anyway, but not for what the Ukraine is known to export) is a quite stupid decision for the Ukraine itself is easy to understand for everybody who knows the importance of the Russian market for the Ukraine. And those who don't understand this, can take a look at the results looking at the actual results for the exports of the Ukraine.

I was doing a bit of research into the so called "Deep state" in Russia and realized that if you take all of Schmelzer's posts and think of them as an expose of what's happening in Russia his posts actually have some value.

LOL. Of course, Russia is similarly ruled by a deep state. This is essentially unavoidable in big democratic states, because democracy can work only if extremely decentralized, like in Swiss, where most of the power is localized on the communal level.

The idea of mirroring is, of course, sometimes useful. In particular, it seems useful to apply it to the Western propaganda picture about Russian media. This gives a good picture about the actual state of Western media.

 

[Quantum Quack]

LOL. It is you who is doing such things. I do not look TV at all, nor Western, nor RT. So, the only way for me to reach some RT is following some link, who found some particular video from RT worth to be linked. How often I have linked it here? Very seldom, almost close to zero.

But this is, reverted, what you do: No proofs at all, except Western propaganda sources.

So you go on about propaganda but don't watch any TV?
Do you listen to radio news?
Gosh, if you rely only on the net for news no wonder your views are somewhat lacking in credibility.

LOL. Of course, Russia is similarly ruled by a deep state. This is essentially unavoidable in big democratic states, because democracy can work only if extremely decentralized, like in Swiss, where most of the power is localized on the communal level.

You'll have to try again as this makes little sense to me ... sorry..

So, the main problem for Russia was one with tariffs. Russia has tariffs for EU imports, but Ukraine was in the Eurasian zone without tariffs. With the association Ukraine-EU, there would have been no tariffs with the EU. With the natural consequence, that Ukrainian firms could buy from EU, sell to Russia, without paying any tariffs, a nice way not to pay tariffs for import into Russia. Russia is not stupid, thus, would stop this. The only way to do this is introducing the same EU tariffs for the Ukraine too. Simple defense of the own tariffs.

I think it was quite simple really.

Russia had a significant investment in the Ukraine's dependency on Russia. Russia had significant secret and other wise military assets and required the Ukraine to be a part of a Russian "Union" to satisfy it's paranoia about military invasion from the West and to secure those secret military assets ( Remember those predominantly empty white aid trucks entering and leaving the Ukraine?)

Also to maintain an enforced consumer base. ( old Soviet style)

So when the rebels installed a pro-western government all those assets ( some secret ) became threatened with exposure.

Economic independence from Western influence maybe what the game was/is superficially about, however land access to the Crimea from the Donetsk region was of critical importance. Important enough to go to war over.

But securing the military assets that had been placed in the Ukraine (especially the Donetsk region), was the highest priority for Putin. (after securing the Crimea)

Shooting down commercial jet MH17 (July 2014) was a part of protecting those secrets.

And no I am not going to tell you what my sources are...

and yeah I already know "I can believe what I like.. so what!"

 

[Schmelzer]

So you go on about propaganda but don't watch any TV?
Do you listen to radio news?

No. I prefer the internet. There is enough Western propaganda in the internet too, sufficient to know what is claimed by the Western propaganda, given that the differences between different Western propaganda media are not very big. (In the past, there have been important differences between different papers, today they are no longer relevant.)

Russia had significant secret and other wise military assets and required the Ukraine to be a part of a Russian "Union" to satisfy it's paranoia about military invasion from the West and to secure those secret military assets ( Remember those predominantly empty white aid trucks entering and leaving the Ukraine?)
So when the rebels installed a pro-western government all those assets ( some secret ) became threatened with exposure.
..., however land access to the Crimea from the Donetsk region was of critical importance. Important enough to go to war over.
But securing the military assets that had been placed in the Ukraine (especially the Donetsk region), was the highest priority for Putin. (after securing the Crimea)
Shooting down commercial jet MH17 (July 2014) was a part of protecting those secrets.
And no I am not going to tell you what my sources are ... and yeah I already know "I can believe what I like.. so what!"

And I'm not even interested to look at them, they are obviously far too freaky. Simply LOL.

Just to note: If there would have been an interest for land access to Crimea, important enough to go to war, there would have been no Minsk I, but, instead, there would have been land access to Crimea now.