Military and War Ethics

Civilian casualties is only one possible moral issue for a soldier. There is torture, shooting people surrendering, directly killing known civilians - saying shooting children at close range - treatment of prisoners, use of WOMDs, respecting or not respecting the other side's medical personnel, having your own medical personnel treat some of the other side's casualties, rape of men or women on the other side, civilian or military, poisoning crops, wells, destruction of cultural artifacts solely to demoralize, the use of cluster bombs or land mines that will kills civilians often children after combat is over, fragging of incompetent soldiers on one's own side, how and when one sacrifices one's own fellow soldiers for certain goals, how one punishes infractions

that's just some of the potential moral issues I can think of off the top of my head.

Most armies have set some limitations on what they consider ethical, certainly the US military has.

So I can't really see how you and RO (noticed in your quote here) can dismiss the entire issue. Unless you are both really advocating total war, no restrictions whatsoever on both command and troops on the ground - iow words raping enemy children would be acceptable. One can think of some of the things that went on as Jugoslavia broke up, for example. Are you really saying once the war starts there are no moral decisions to be made in relation to the enemy and you would defend ANY behavior at all as long as it hurt the other side somehow?

Doreen, after a more careful reading of the above post...

Randwolf,
you are completely misunderstanding my post. I never even weighed in on my own ideas about wartime ethics and what they should be. I was shocked that people considered the topic meaningless and seemed to be basically saying to the OP writer that the topic should not even be talked about, war is hell, all if fair in it, period. I think that is very strange and I would guess that both of these people would, in fact, protest certain decisions by their buddies or by officers above them ON ETHICAL GROUNDS.

Do you think the topic is meaningless?
If you do you are going against the actions and decisions made by soldiers both in the field and in command posts and in classrooms in peacetime, where the issues are confronted, often with great bravery. Somehow you took my post as saying that soldiers are bad if they are not nice and fight with Marquis de Queensbury rules, etc., etc. I have not asserted that.

Context is important and I feel like you took my posts out of context and then interpreted them in the worst possible way.

I used extreme examples to see if the people saying there was no discussion to be had really thought everything was moral and there was no need to even consider such issues. I mentioned Yugoslavia because there, for example, children were killed not because they were threats but sometimes just for fun or because of who they might someday grow up to be. And where rape was used systematically, in other words cold bloodedly as a weapon. Maybe those guys really think that kind of stuff is OK. But I find it odd that they think the issue is not even worth discussing.
For all you know I might be more understanding than you about what soldiers do, especially in the heat of battle. Please let me take a stand before you judge it.
Prompted by this post...

I offer my apologies - in fact, I see that you take no stand on any actual or hypothetical events whatsoever. You simply point out that someone should, maybe.

Fine, apologies again, but due to reasons I think you can infer from my reply post, this particular quote:
Civilian casualties is only one possible moral issue for a soldier. There is torture, shooting people surrendering, directly killing known civilians - saying shooting children at close range...
[emphasis mine] kind of hit a nerve. I ran with it without considering the subtelties in your post.
 
Doreen, after a more careful reading of the above post...

Prompted by this post...

I offer my apologies - in fact, I see that you take no stand on any actual or hypothetical events whatsoever. You simply point out that someone should, maybe.
No problem and thanks.
Fine, apologies again, but due to reasons I think you can infer from my reply post, this particular quote:[emphasis mine] kind of hit a nerve. I ran with it without considering the subtelties in your post.
Again, no problem and I get it. I am not someone who thinks it makes sense, for example, to refer to Vietnam vets as babykillers and I can imagine what you got reminded of. I think people like to identify with one category and oppose it to others. I am peaceful, so I am not warlike. Or whatever. Well, I am peaceful and warlike. I can easily imagine doing what happens in Saving Private Ryan when the allied soldiers finally get up on the ridge where some of them shoot surrendering Germans. It's wrong, and in fact the German soldiers were 'fighting fair' by the standards of the time, they just had great positions and were bunkered in with machine guns. But I know I would want to kill if I was lucky enough to reach that ridge and I am not sure I would honor the nicities of the Geneva Convention in the heat of battle. I do hope that after battles I would not find it fun and justified to torture regular grunts from the other side who my platoon had captured. I also hope I wouldn't shoot at medics. I can't say for sure I wouldn't, but I hope I wouldn't, even though on one level it is a fantasy that this makes us moral creatures. The same would be my hopes for myself with some of the other examples I gave with children, etc. I mean you gotta walk many a mile in people's shoes before you presume that you would live their lives better. I do think it's meaningful to discuss what is truly out of bounds and what one should strive not to do, even in the heat of battle. With the humility that the latter is just not going to happen on occasion even with 'good' people.
 
The position he and RO took basically says that the only distinction between a terrorist and a soldier is that one is sanctioned by an organization - a state - that the UN recognizes, but there is absolutely no moral difference.
"Terrorism" is a deliberate attack on civilians and civilian infrastructure with little or no strategic or tactical value, as a form of extortion. The purpose is to terrorize the civilians into adopting a policy so repugnant to them that there's no legitimate way to evangelize it among them, hoping that they will then be able to prevail upon their government to do (or not do) something to please the terrorists. This is not war, and people who do this are not warriors. They may be "soldiers" because soldiers only follow orders, but a soldier can be either a warrior or a terrorist.

A fighter who does not fight under the banner of a recognized state may be an insurgent, a guerrilla warrior, a rebel, or many things; but so long as he does his honorable best to restrict his attacks to genuine military targets, he is not a terrorist and may as well be called a soldier.

By this reasonably straightforward definition I call Hiroshima and Nagasaki terrorism, even though they succeeded: Japan did indeed surrender, a policy that their people would originally never have sanctioned because it violates their code of honor. Whereas the attacks on the USS Cole, the Marine barracks in Lebanon and the Pentagon were acts of war because those are all obvious and valid military targets.
The military recruits young and healthy people. They don't want old people with bad teeth and back problems. Something about being fit enough to fight should the occasion arise. If an 18 year old adult lacks a conscience or holds a naive view of the world then its parents did not do their job.
How many 18 year-olds have the perspective, discipline and emotional maturity to decide for themselves whether killing someone who is not shooting at them is right or wrong? Especially when the people who have spent six weeks brainwashing them tell them it's right?

And need I once again ask what reason these children (regardless of their age at the time), whom you postulate as well-raised by their parents and well-indoctrinated by their drill officers, thought that rape was a valid military tactic? Or fucking each other in front of war prisoners?
There are much worse places than the military for a simpleton adult to find themselves.
Just because being in the Army may not be quite as evil a fate as being in the local chapter of the Bloods doesn't mean it's actually a good place.
If it weren't for those armed people and their quaint notions of their "country" you would probably be in a Chinese or Soviet prison camp.
I am not advocating disbanding our military. Even as a pacifist I understand that this is something no country can do unilaterally. I am merely advocating compliance with the international rules of war. In every case, when slavish conformance to one of those rules would compromise a military objective, military necessity is specifically directed to take precedence. Thus, people who violate the rules of war are assholes and should be shown no mercy. They bring dishonor to their army, their cause and their nation.
 
Anyone who say's joining the army is like breathing air, and then compares it to mcdonalds.. then says high interest, unforgiving morgages funded by the va is all peachy is definitely mental.

VA loans are actually better than many other types that are out there as far as protecting the buyer goes.

I said joining the military is a choice with consequences, just like taking a job at McDonalds. You act like its a big surprise/personal tragedy that joining the Army might actually require you to act like a soldier.

Naivety is a rough way to go through life but i guess it could be worse.
 
The internationalrules of war are pretty much a
joke. Nobody enforces them. unless you commit a holocaust people will look the other way
 
VA loans are actually better than many other types that are out there as far as protecting the buyer goes.

I said joining the military is a choice with consequences, just like taking a job at McDonalds. You act like its a big surprise/personal tragedy that joining the Army might actually require you to act like a soldier.

Naivety is a rough way to go through life but i guess it could be worse.

You're the one being Naive. In almost every definition of the word. The consequences to working at mcdonalds are a low paying job with crappy hours. Depending on your mos, that's about all there is in common with the military. Unless of course you're mental.

Can you tell me how many people cried in your boot camp? I'm guessing around 80%? How many people cry while in trainee status to mcdonalds? Virtually none in comparrison.

Does McDonalds relocate you across the country every 2 years or so, or does mcdonalds deploy you to a foriegn country? Absolutely not.

The military is a dangerous job and should damn well be respected as such. If drill sergeants had the same attitude as you the hand basket that our military is being delivered personally to satan himself in hell would get a little bit bigger.

Also you were quite naive to assume I felt soft and emotional when enlisting. You could take my word for it that I wasn't. I opt'd for every school i possibly could. Almost 3 years into the military i'm about to make staff sergeant. I don't think you get it that quick by pussy footing around.

My advise still stands, I think it'd do you some good to see a shrink. You might get some people killed otherwise. You know, comparing rolling out of the gate to getting high at woodstock or something.
 
You're the one being Naive. In almost every definition of the word. The consequences to working at mcdonalds are a low paying job with crappy hours. Depending on your mos, that's about all there is in common with the military. Unless of course you're mental.

There are duties to every job and supervisors to see the job gets done.

Can you tell me how many people cried in your boot camp? I'm guessing around 80%? How many people cry while in trainee status to mcdonalds? Virtually none in comparrison.

I don't know and don't care. You must have cared enough to compile the statistics. People do cry at fast food and retail work. Stress affects people, even if they are not in the military.

Does McDonalds relocate you across the country every 2 years or so, or does mcdonalds deploy you to a foriegn country? Absolutely not.

You mean you actually had to relocate after you joined a job that requires you to relocate? That's amazing. You shouldn't have to put up with such nonsense.

The military is a dangerous job and should damn well be respected as such. If drill sergeants had the same attitude as you the hand basket that our military is being delivered personally to satan himself in hell would get a little bit bigger.

Yes it is a dangerous job. It is respected as such. My drill instructors were sure to remind us of that again and again during training. That is why they trained us so hard. Some theory about training hard so we have a better chance of surviving real combat.

Also you were quite naive to assume I felt soft and emotional when enlisting. You could take my word for it that I wasn't. I opt'd for every school i possibly could. Almost 3 years into the military i'm about to make staff sergeant. I don't think you get it that quick by pussy footing around.

You seem soft and emotional now. Unless you work in some support capacity I don't see how you could make rank quickly while complaining so much about the military. Its a non-NCO trait from my experience.

My advise still stands, I think it'd do you some good to see a shrink. You might get some people killed otherwise. You know, comparing rolling out of the gate to getting high at woodstock or something.

I'm a civilian now. But when I was on duty I knew the difference between time to make a low profile and shoot straight, and time to have fun and relax. My troops did too. We survived.

If the stress is too difficult for you feel free to partake of your tax payer funded healthcare and see one of those hot shot military shrinks. Hopefully, they found a replacement for Major Hasan to meet all your mental health needs.
 
There are duties to every job and supervisors to see the job gets done.



I don't know and don't care. You must have cared enough to compile the statistics. People do cry at fast food and retail work. Stress affects people, even if they are not in the military.



You mean you actually had to relocate after you joined a job that requires you to relocate? That's amazing. You shouldn't have to put up with such nonsense.



Yes it is a dangerous job. It is respected as such. My drill instructors were sure to remind us of that again and again during training. That is why they trained us so hard. Some theory about training hard so we have a better chance of surviving real combat.



You seem soft and emotional now. Unless you work in some support capacity I don't see how you could make rank quickly while complaining so much about the military. Its a non-NCO trait from my experience.



I'm a civilian now. But when I was on duty I knew the difference between time to make a low profile and shoot straight, and time to have fun and relax. My troops did too. We survived.

If the stress is too difficult for you feel free to partake of your tax payer funded healthcare and see one of those hot shot military shrinks. Hopefully, they found a replacement for Major Hasan to meet all your mental health needs.

you're absolutely convinced that you can compare the military to fast food. what can i say that i already haven't. you must have been a cook.

I love traveling actually. I've been all over, fort benning, fort bragg, fort carson, california, miami and even texas. i can't say there was anything to put up with besides free first class airfare.

about your training, that's precisely my point. let's say your drill sergeants trained you to be a fry boy, which in your case is likely. you'd be pretty good at it but you'd still just be a fry boy not a soldier. it's the emotional level that makes a soldier who he is. i'm beginning to think you've never been in the military.

I made my e-5 before completing my mos school. It's hard to believe, i know. But oh every single one of us who made it that far were promoted right around that same time. We weren't selected for promotion in any regular sense. We were tested on many different levels, not like your typical army promotion board, or marine selection. We were individually graded from day 1. If we forgot an alice clip 6 weeks beforehand it was still counted against you and you never were allowed to forget your mistakes. In SOLT was the only time you could say we were allowed to relax. Most fryboys at mcdonalds wouldn't call it relaxing.

I hope your troops survived, a lot of things can go wrong in a kitchen. You sure did em' good hoss.
 
you're absolutely convinced that you can compare the military to fast food. what can i say that i already haven't. you must have been a cook.

I love traveling actually. I've been all over, fort benning, fort bragg, fort carson, california, miami and even texas. i can't say there was anything to put up with besides free first class airfare.

about your training, that's precisely my point. let's say your drill sergeants trained you to be a fry boy, which in your case is likely. you'd be pretty good at it but you'd still just be a fry boy not a soldier. it's the emotional level that makes a soldier who he is. i'm beginning to think you've never been in the military.

I made my e-5 before completing my mos school. It's hard to believe, i know. But oh every single one of us who made it that far were promoted right around that same time. We weren't selected for promotion in any regular sense. We were tested on many different levels, not like your typical army promotion board, or marine selection. We were individually graded from day 1. If we forgot an alice clip 6 weeks beforehand it was still counted against you and you never were allowed to forget your mistakes. In SOLT was the only time you could say we were allowed to relax. Most fryboys at mcdonalds wouldn't call it relaxing.

I hope your troops survived, a lot of things can go wrong in a kitchen. You sure did em' good hoss.

The military flew you first class as an enlisted man. I'm sure. They are known to spare no expense on such things.

Training makes a soldier, cook, truck driver etc... I don't know who fed you the line about emotions making a soldier but I'd advise you to reconsider it.

You accuse me of being a cook and make all kinds of crazy claims about getting promoted fast.

Those drill sergeants must have taught you well, once they dried the tears from your eyes and tucked you in at night.
 
The military flew you first class as an enlisted man. I'm sure. They are known to spare no expense on such things.

Training makes a soldier, cook, truck driver etc... I don't know who fed you the line about emotions making a soldier but I'd advise you to reconsider it.

You accuse me of being a cook and make all kinds of crazy claims about getting promoted fast.

Those drill sergeants must have taught you well, once they dried the tears from your eyes and tucked you in at night.

This confirms it for me. You were never in the military.

Obviously you'd know flying in uniform gets you bumped from coach to first class. Never had one flight where the airliners didn't bump me up. It's their way of thanking the soldiers.

Only because basic breaks you down "emotionally" and "physically". This is the definition to becomming a soldier, something you know nothing about. It's the absolute basic definition of it. Even civillians with no knowledge of the military know this. Funny thing is one of the first speeches they give every single recruit goes along the lines of "we'll break you down emotionally and physically and build you back up"

I was promoted 1 year and 10 months into my military career, long after drill sergeants. I spent the 1st 2 years and a few extra weeks training, this would tell you something if you'd ever been in the military. Not that you have been, so I don't expect you to know. My Mos is 18e, and it's a requirement to make your e-5 before completing Q course.
 
"Terrorism" is a deliberate attack on civilians and civilian infrastructure with little or no strategic or tactical value, as a form of extortion.

That doesn't make any sense. Targets without value are not useful for extortion.

The purpose is to terrorize the civilians into adopting a policy so repugnant to them that there's no legitimate way to evangelize it among them, hoping that they will then be able to prevail upon their government to do (or not do) something to please the terrorists.

Nonsense. The (stated) political aims of terrorist groups are frequently blandly mainstream (and protean, indicating their superficial nature, but let's leave that aside for now), and the use of terrorism in pursuit of them demonstably the least effective way to advance them.

Terrorism is not some kind of rational Clausewitzian warfare, or even a misconstrual of such by ill-informed or irrational actors. Political utility really is incidental to the phenomenon.

This is not war, and people who do this are not warriors.

Why not? What's the difference between your description and regular warfare, other than the involvement of explicit state actors?

By this reasonably straightforward definition I call Hiroshima and Nagasaki terrorism, even though they succeeded:

Where did "success" figure into your definition?

And since when were Hiroshima and Nagasaki without tactical or strategic value?

And where have you demonstrated that those attacks were intended to send messages to the populace, rather than the political class directly?

Japan did indeed surrender, a policy that their people would originally never have sanctioned because it violates their code of honor.

Hogwash. Japan was going to surrender one way or the other; the only question was only when and on what terms.

If Japan was really ready to face annihilation instead of surrendering, then by definition they wouldn't have surrenderred. Annihilation by nuclear bombardment would be no worse than annihilation by incendiary bombardment and land invasion; actually it would probably be preferable.

If someone prefers death to some political outcome, then threatening them with death isn't going to move them.

The relevant message sent by the atomic bombings was not that Japan faced certain defeat - that was a foregone conclusion, by that point - but that the US would achieve this without giving Japan the opportunity to inflict heavy casualties in return. Hence there was no longer any point in holding out, since it would not improve Japan's bargaining position in negotiating the surrender. Note that such a message is intended for the political class making the strategic decisions, by its nature.
 
This confirms it for me. You were never in the military.

Obviously you'd know flying in uniform gets you bumped from coach to first class. Never had one flight where the airliners didn't bump me up. It's their way of thanking the soldiers.

Only because basic breaks you down "emotionally" and "physically". This is the definition to becomming a soldier, something you know nothing about. It's the absolute basic definition of it. Even civillians with no knowledge of the military know this. Funny thing is one of the first speeches they give every single recruit goes along the lines of "we'll break you down emotionally and physically and build you back up"

I was promoted 1 year and 10 months into my military career, long after drill sergeants. I spent the 1st 2 years and a few extra weeks training, this would tell you something if you'd ever been in the military. Not that you have been, so I don't expect you to know. My Mos is 18e, and it's a requirement to make your e-5 before completing Q course.

My uncle once said he ate a pepper that made him cry. I was 6 or so at the time and I called him a liar. Boy did I ever get scolded for that.

Its not emotionally. Its physically, mentally, and emotionally. Its the whole package. Every job has stresses. Maybe not special forces school stresses but some people can't hack getting complained to about stupid things. Why do you think so many combat veterans have a hard time getting back to civilian life? Its a different form of stress that they can't deal with well. I know guys who can handle getting shot at but can't stand being around whiney people. They would do consecutive tours in Iraq except for the policy that they have to see a shrink before they can get the ok to do it.

Reading about your mos made me chuckle. My mos was 3531. I failed the two week part of the driving course where we drove manual transmission 5 tons. So they took me and my room mates, who failed on purpose to stay with me, to see a Major. He threatened to put us in cook school if we failed again. So we had to repeat that part of the school and we all passed. We also partied and had lots of fun.

Hope you are enjoying your time in the service. I make lots more now than I did when I got out at 4 years as an E-5. The GI Bill paid a ton of bills and the VA loan helped me get two houses so far, trying to sell the first one and its going tediously slow. Not to mention the VA hospital where I went when I was a poor college student. Add to that, the benefit of having USMC on my resume and you get the idea of how the military has helped me.

Even though we seem to disagree on a few things I have to respect the schooling you've been through. Good grief thats some high speed low drag stuff. I feel better knowing guys like you are between me and those who would harm me and mine. Keep up the good work.
 
The military journalists consider Health Care, for example, to be the military's greatest enemy at the moment.
How amusing. We pacifist libertarians see it the other way around. If the shit-for-brains government would stop spending a hundred billion dollars a year on a war that was started for fraudulent reasons and is not likely to accomplish anything positive (unless you count pushing Al Qaeda's base of ops into a not terribly hostile country with nuclear weapons, and pissing off the entire Muslim population of this planet, as "positive") they'd have lots of money to spend at home.
Obviously you'd know flying in uniform gets you bumped from coach to first class. Never had one flight where the airliners didn't bump me up. It's their way of thanking the soldiers.
I've flown coach with lots of men and women in uniform.
That doesn't make any sense. Targets without value are not useful for extortion.
They have no strategic military value. Killing a couple of hundred thousand civilians and leaving the rest to suffer painful lingering deaths--especially the children--is a great way to demoralize the civilian population.
Nonsense. The (stated) political aims of terrorist groups are frequently blandly mainstream (and protean, indicating their superficial nature, but let's leave that aside for now), and the use of terrorism in pursuit of them demonstably the least effective way to advance them. Terrorism is not some kind of rational Clausewitzian warfare, or even a misconstrual of such by ill-informed or irrational actors. Political utility really is incidental to the phenomenon.
Yes we all know that now, and I suspect it's more true now than it was in WWII and in the days of the IRA.
Why not? What's the difference between your description and regular warfare, other than the involvement of explicit state actors?
The definition of terrorism says nothing about the status of the actors. They can be official military personnel or any other type of fighter. It's the targets that matter. Attacking military targets is war. Attacking civilian targets is not always terrorism, but it's not war. The WTC was terrorism; the Pentagon was war.
Where did "success" figure into your definition?
It didn't. It was just ironic, and terribly sad, that it was successful. From then on, every two-bit terrorist on earth can say to his recruits, "Hey, it worked for the United States. So it can work for us." My country has become a role model for everyone from the IRA to the PLO.
And since when were Hiroshima and Nagasaki without tactical or strategic value?
Obviously they had their share of war plants, but no more than any other cities of comparable size. There were only two atomic bombs in existence in the whole world at that time. Those two cities did not have enough value as military targets to drop those two bombs on them!
And where have you demonstrated that those attacks were intended to send messages to the populace, rather than the political class directly?
Well I was a little too young to overhear any discussions at the time. But the few cogent analyses I have read, by people who had access to some of the participants, say that. They said that the Emperor did not have a strong personality and had no control over the military leaders, and that the military leaders had worked themselves into a frenzy of imperialist honor, believing that they would betray their constituents if they surrendered. Since there would never be any pressure from above, it was up to the U.S. to generate pressure from below. By demonstrating to the Japanese populace that they were up against a new kind of enemy who had absolutely no sense of honor and would do anything to win, the U.S. changed the rules and made it possible for them to consider the taboo subject of surrender.
Hogwash. Japan was going to surrender one way or the other; the only question was only when and on what terms.
Reasonable people disagree. Perhaps you're right. I have found the arguments I cited persuasive. Every culture has its streak of irrationality and that was Japan's.

I have certainly seen more than one estimate that without the nukes, the war would have dragged on for many years and taken roughly 75 million more casualties, before Japan finally surrendered. This would have MORE THAN DOUBLED the death toll from that war.
If Japan was really ready to face annihilation instead of surrendering, then by definition they wouldn't have surrenderred. Annihilation by nuclear bombardment would be no worse than annihilation by incendiary bombardment and land invasion; actually it would probably be preferable.
It's a lot easier to maintain the illusion that you're going to win in a conventional war. When your enemy starts dropping city-busters on you without really even coming close enough to shoot at, you suddenly have to face annihilation as a real possibility.
 
I feel bad for not participating more in this thread that I initiated, but I haven't really been in the mood to be on Sciforums in the last few days. That, and y'all are doing a good job bringing up points on your own!
 
Ethics begins at the top, as does the whole realm of unethical behavior, so leave the soldiers in the field out of it for the moment.

The military journalists consider Health Care, for example, to be the military's greatest enemy at the moment.

That sounds like a valid ethical conflict. :shrug:

Totally agreed. I actually wanted to add that to the discussion at some point: mistreatment of military personnel by the government. Heck, government (U.S. and others) mistreatment of people in general... you couldn't find the end of that topic!

Skimmed the beginning of your blog post.. looks interesting. I will come back to that later.

The international rules of war are pretty much a
joke. Nobody enforces them. unless you commit a holocaust people will look the other way

I wanted to briefly thank Fraggle Rocker for bringing up the Nuremberg trials and the so-called international rules of war.

But fedr808 is right in one sense and that was when Fraggle Rocker mentioned it, I wondered exactly who cares about Nuremberg or International Law? Seems like the US, or... err... okay... ONE faction in this great nation of ours... doesn't really care about any of that. In fact, defying its own constitution, and engaging in extraordinary rendition is fair according to these people.
 
They have no strategic military value. Killing a couple of hundred thousand civilians and leaving the rest to suffer painful lingering deaths--especially the children--is a great way to demoralize the civilian population.

An action which has "strategic military value," no?

And no, it's not, necessarily. Aerial bombardment frequently has exactly the opposite effect on the morale of the civilian population. It didn't break Britain in WWII, to cite one well-known example.

Yes we all know that now, and I suspect it's more true now than it was in WWII and in the days of the IRA.

You say that, but you keep including all the provisos about political utility in your definition of terrorism.

Attacking civilian targets is not always terrorism, but it's not war.

Sure it is. It's called "total war."

Maybe it's also terrorism, but that doesn't mean it isn't war.

From then on, every two-bit terrorist on earth can say to his recruits, "Hey, it worked for the United States. So it can work for us." My country has become a role model for everyone from the IRA to the PLO.

Right, cause there was never any instance of total war in history before that.

Obviously they had their share of war plants, but no more than any other cities of comparable size. There were only two atomic bombs in existence in the whole world at that time. Those two cities did not have enough value as military targets to drop those two bombs on them!

Why ever not? Bombing them seems to have worked, no? Is forcing a surrender somehow without strategic value?

It seems to me that you're considering only tactical military value. Strategic value is a much broader beast.

They said that the Emperor did not have a strong personality and had no control over the military leaders, and that the military leaders had worked themselves into a frenzy of imperialist honor, believing that they would betray their constituents if they surrendered. Since there would never be any pressure from above, it was up to the U.S. to generate pressure from below.

This is kooky. Japan was not a democratic government at the time, so there's no reliable mechanism for generating "pressure from below" short of open rebellion - something the US knew perfectly well would not be made more likely by aerial bombardment.

Rather, it was a means of putting pressure on the political decision-makers directly. It didn't change the expectations put on them by the populace so much as change the rules of the game they themselves were playing.

I'm not saying that it didn't also make an impression on the civilian populace - obviously it did. But I take issue with the idea that such was the primary mechanism of political impact of the bombings. For one, the surrender came too rapidly on the heels of the atomic bombings for it to have been the result of a mass realignment of popular sentiment pressuring the military leadership; that sort of thing takes months - or even years - to occur (and frequently does not occur at all in militarized, authoritarian societies like Japan's was).

I have certainly seen more than one estimate that without the nukes, the war would have dragged on for many years and taken roughly 75 million more casualties, before Japan finally surrendered. This would have MORE THAN DOUBLED the death toll from that war.

Yeah, those numbers are preposterous on their faces. There are many wild estimates out there, some of them deliberately exaggerated to justify the use of nuclear weapons.
 
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