Military and War Ethics

Giambattista

sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss
Valued Senior Member
What does this mean?

Ethics in both military service and war?

What is acceptable for a soldier to do? Where does following orders stop and an ethical stand against one's own government begin?

When does one's loyalty and duty to one's country become a moral burden that can no longer be carried?

When is it lawful for a soldier or officer to disobey orders?

When is it lawful or even of dire necessity that someone refuse to follow the command of a person or government that is no longer respectable or worthy of giving those commands?


I've decided to start this thread because of a discussion in another thread where this did not belong (floating trash island!). I don't know whether a thread has been started about this before. I don't frankly care!

I just want to know anyone and everyone's thoughts about this.
I would especially appreciate to hear from those who are serving, or have served in the past, in any military for any country. Or other similar areas like law-enforcement (police, etc).

Any thoughts?
 
Yes, I've got a very clear thought - and yes, I've served in the military.

War is hell - it has NO room for ethics, morality or anything else besides trying to keep yourself and your buddies alive while attempting to kill as many of the enemy possible by ANY means at your disposal.

End of story.
 
This isn't about any war in particular, but I've been wondering about how people feel about war in general, and what is acceptable. What kind of war is ethical?

For starters, I will say that I personally feel the Iraq war was rushed and watching the events leading up to it, I didn't feel it was necessary or just.

I have been wondering, what exactly the justifications for it were, and whether or not anyone is justified, if they are enlisted in the US military, if they are really able to say "No, I don't think it's right"?

I have only begun to look into this, and I have seen a few stories here and there, but I'm not sure about how effective the "conscientious objector" status is.

Here are a few links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Iraq_War_resisters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_Objector

http://motherjones.com/politics/2004/10/breaking-ranks


Sorry, I really wanted to start this thread off better, but I did it at the last minute. I'll have to get back to it later. I'm certain someone knows more about this than I.
 
Yes, I've got a very clear thought - and yes, I've served in the military.

War is hell - it has NO room for ethics, morality or anything else besides trying to keep yourself and your buddies alive while attempting to kill as many of the enemy possible by ANY means at your disposal.

End of story.

Okay.
I guess I don't know what to say then.

Except for that I don't understand why someone would be put into a situation like that as you described.
:shrug:



To clarify, this isn't a thread for belittling anyone or whatever; I have never been in a combat situation...


Do people really feel they are enemies because they are? Is it because of what they are told to feel?
 
Last edited:
I know a story of a conscientious object having to go before a supreme court, so that he could argue his story about how he had became a shaman for his tribe which meant he couldn't take part in the military. I want to say it took them almost two years to get him out of the military. When it's only suppose to take 6 months or so.

I know the process some what. Off memory I think you would have to request the form, your commander (company level) signs off on it. Then you are supposed to meet with mental health. You'll present your case and will be examed. Then some time later on you are going to have to present an essay (i suppose it's recommended for it to be long and detailed) for them to evaluate as a board. Some cases go as high as the supreme court, others are handled at the lowest level possible.

Mind you that this is very uncommon now a days and so few in the military actually know about it.
 
I know a story of a conscientious object having to go before a supreme court, so that he could argue his story about how he had became a shaman for his tribe which meant he couldn't take part in the military. I want to say it took them almost two years to get him out of the military. When it's only suppose to take 6 months or so.

I know the process some what. Off memory I think you would have to request the form, your commander (company level) signs off on it. Then you are supposed to meet with mental health. You'll present your case and will be examed. Then some time later on you are going to have to present an essay (i suppose it's recommended for it to be long and detailed) for them to evaluate as a board. Some cases go as high as the supreme court, others are handled at the lowest level possible.

Mind you that this is very uncommon now a days and so few in the military actually know about it.

It took them two years, because he was a shaman-to-be?

Well, I've not heard of many cases. I have heard of a few people objecting to the Iraq war, but until recently, I had not actually looked into any cases. Does seem much fewer than I thought. I only remember anything about it from the Vietnam era when they had the draft.

I have wondered if it would be higher if people actually knew about, but I don't know. Maybe that's why some people ran up to Canada?
 
Do you think it is wrong for someone to object on the grounds that they think the Iraq war is illegal?
 
I don't think it'd help all too much if people knew about the discharge. A lot of soldiers get out dishonorably because it's quicker. That or they'll just go awol.

If you asked me if it was right for them to refuse to go to war, then i'd say "i'd rather fight with brave men then die with a coward."

Although if they think the Iraq war is illegal then, they should have voted more wisely on their congressmen & president. A soldier at any level doesn't decide himself if the war is illegal. He can only argue if it's against his morals or religion, or refuse to break the ROE or commit war crimes.
 
Do you think it is wrong for someone to object on the grounds that they think the Iraq war is illegal?

:bugeye: huh???? war is MURDER and THIEVERY sanctioned on behalf of people who are not held accountable for their actions. So no its not wrong to object on grounds of illegality, its just wasting breathe.
 
Although if they think the Iraq war is illegal then, they should have voted more wisely on their congressmen & president.
Well, yes, that's kind of a given, though none of the above are generally good on their words, with a few exceptions. ;)

A soldier at any level doesn't decide himself if the war is illegal. He can only argue if it's against his morals or religion, or refuse to break the ROE or commit war crimes.
So a soldier absolutely cannot ponder the illegality of any order? Or just general war?

:bugeye: huh???? war is MURDER and THIEVERY sanctioned on behalf of people who are not held accountable for their actions. So no its not wrong to object on grounds of illegality, its just wasting breathe.

Imhotep? Would you like to expound on that? I'm not into war in nearly any situation, but I don't know if that's always the case, frankly...


Thank you for the link and your input on this thread. I will have to read and comment on that later because I am short on time.
 
So a soldier absolutely cannot ponder the illegality of any order? Or just general war?

The soldier can question orders, mostly if it is a valid point. He can refuse illegal orders and matters that just aren't right.

Example of an illegal order in Iraq with their rules of engagement would be.

Sgt Stupid tells Pvt Retard to shoot an unnarmed civillian. If he refuses, then he cannot be charged with anything.
 
Imhotep? Would you like to expound on that? I'm not into war in nearly any situation, but I don't know if that's always the case, frankly...

sure, my point was that this war is not a war of the people so our support for or against is really irrelevant. the justifications for this farce are beyond ridiculous.

but you are right i should have been more specific. it is the wars of politicians that i refer to(vietnam scenarios) in these situations i think that the breach of ethics and morals takes place on far larger scale than any ordinary 'combat situation'. hence if we are to to even broach the topics of ethics we need to look a lot deeper than soldiers following orders.
 
Yes, I've got a very clear thought - and yes, I've served in the military.

War is hell - it has NO room for ethics, morality or anything else besides trying to keep yourself and your buddies alive while attempting to kill as many of the enemy possible by ANY means at your disposal.

End of story.
Amen. I really think we've forgotten that. If we're going to fight a war, and that's a decision that shouldn't be taken lightly, we should fight it to win. If you want to avoid civilian casualties, don't fight the war. But once you've decided you must fight, hit the enemy as hard as you can with no regard for anything but killing as many of them as possible as quickly as possible until they throw their hands up in horror at the demon they've unleashed and surrender. When you fight with half measures and try to avoid civilian casualties, you make the war more bearable and prolong it. Thus an all out attack with no holds barred may ultimately be more merciful than a war fought with half measures as the suffering inflicted in the former case is over with quickly whereas the half ass war goes on and on as does the suffering.
 
Okay.
I guess I don't know what to say then.

Except for that I don't understand why someone would be put into a situation like that as you described.
:shrug:

Then you shouldn't even be asking the question if you don't even know what war is (obviously) because people do NOT put themselves in that situation - their GOVERNMENT puts them in that situation!



To clarify, this isn't a thread for belittling anyone or whatever; I have never been in a combat situation...


Do people really feel they are enemies because they are? Is it because of what they are told to feel?

I appreciate you not making an attempt to belittle anyone - but you actually need to think just bit about your subject here - WAR.

There's no "feeling" or "told to feel" in war. The governments have declared war on each other. Following that is the main thrust of what I'm trying to get across here: YOU are trying your best to kill the other guy BECAUSE HE is trying his best to kill YOU. That's really what it comes down to and all that matters to you on a battlefield.

Bottom line is that it's simply kill or be killed. Period. And under those conditions, there's absolutely no room or time to consider petty things like ideals, morals, etc. - your ONLY concern is just trying to keep from being killed.
 
Amen. I really think we've forgotten that. If we're going to fight a war, and that's a decision that shouldn't be taken lightly, we should fight it to win. If you want to avoid civilian casualties, don't fight the war. But once you've decided you must fight, hit the enemy as hard as you can with no regard for anything but killing as many of them as possible as quickly as possible until they throw their hands up in horror at the demon they've unleashed and surrender. When you fight with half measures and try to avoid civilian casualties, you make the war more bearable and prolong it. Thus an all out attack with no holds barred may ultimately be more merciful than a war fought with half measures as the suffering inflicted in the former case is over with quickly whereas the half ass war goes on and on as does the suffering.
Civilian casualties is only one possible moral issue for a soldier. There is torture, shooting people surrendering, directly killing known civilians - saying shooting children at close range - treatment of prisoners, use of WOMDs, respecting or not respecting the other side's medical personnel, having your own medical personnel treat some of the other side's casualties, rape of men or women on the other side, civilian or military, poisoning crops, wells, destruction of cultural artifacts solely to demoralize, the use of cluster bombs or land mines that will kills civilians often children after combat is over, fragging of incompetent soldiers on one's own side, how and when one sacrifices one's own fellow soldiers for certain goals, how one punishes infractions

that's just some of the potential moral issues I can think of off the top of my head.

Most armies have set some limitations on what they consider ethical, certainly the US military has.

So I can't really see how you and RO (noticed in your quote here) can dismiss the entire issue. Unless you are both really advocating total war, no restrictions whatsoever on both command and troops on the ground - iow words raping enemy children would be acceptable. One can think of some of the things that went on as Jugoslavia broke up, for example. Are you really saying once the war starts there are no moral decisions to be made in relation to the enemy and you would defend ANY behavior at all as long as it hurt the other side somehow?
 
Amen. I really think we've forgotten that. If we're going to fight a war, and that's a decision that shouldn't be taken lightly, we should fight it to win. If you want to avoid civilian casualties, don't fight the war. But once you've decided you must fight, hit the enemy as hard as you can with no regard for anything but killing as many of them as possible as quickly as possible until they throw their hands up in horror at the demon they've unleashed and surrender. When you fight with half measures and try to avoid civilian casualties, you make the war more bearable and prolong it. Thus an all out attack with no holds barred may ultimately be more merciful than a war fought with half measures as the suffering inflicted in the former case is over with quickly whereas the half ass war goes on and on as does the suffering.

If it were that simple, why not just nuke or carpet bomb every place where the enemy hides? Maximum enemies killed, and relatively few of one's own soldiers. It seems to me that the reason we don't go there is precisely because there are balancing factors in addition to the need to kill the enemy.

I am also a little skeptical of the notion of making the enemy regret the war. I don't see anyone reacting "in horror at the demon they've unleashed". I think it more likely that the more horrible it is, the more justified people will feel in provoking war. They may surrender, but they will surrender feeling that they were still *right.* Certainly no one believes that right makes right, or that God sides with the victors. That attitude can then become the basis of future political or military issues down the road in some cases (like post-WWI German attitudes setting up WWII). The solution to that may well be occupation and re-education, like we did in Germany and Japan. (Then again, that did not work well in the Reconstruction South, so perhaps not.)
 
I appreciate you not making an attempt to belittle anyone - but you actually need to think just a bit about your subject here - WAR.

Agreed.

You know, Giambattista... I would be hard pressed to explain all my reasons for having made almost ANY choice in my life- Much less, why I chose to put myself in a situation where I would end up carrying the Burden of death on my stained hands.

Nonetheless, I Know and Knew that those who were opposite me in combat were not MY enemies. They were uncles, fathers, sons-- But that did not change the situation.

You don't HAVE to Understand me- I doubt you could.

You can just sit back and say, "Thank you."
 
Last edited:
"All is fair in love and war,"

The most honorable way to fight it is to take the enemy's will and ability to fight as fast as you could before there is time for more casualties on both sides. Its also honorable to destroy tanks before the crew get in it, and the aircraft before it takes off ( basically the the weapon systems not the people ).
 
What is acceptable for a soldier to do? Where does following orders stop and an ethical stand against one's own government begin? When does one's loyalty and duty to one's country become a moral burden that can no longer be carried? When is it lawful for a soldier or officer to disobey orders?
This was supposedly decided in the Nuremberg Trials, in which Nazis were accused of and tried and convicted for crimes they committed while obeying orders. The outcome of these trials was codified in the Nuremberg Principles. They are commonly summarized in the negative, in vernacular fashion, in the statement, which is usually spoken in a mock-German accent: "I vuss chust followink orderss."

You can read the Wikipedia article on the Nuremberg Principles, or spend a month reading all the Google hits. To oversimplify and summarize:
  • I. If you commit a crime under international law, it is you who will be punished for it, not just the person who ordered you to do it. In other words, you have a duty to civilization that overrides your duty to your commanders.
  • II. Even if international law does not specify a punishment for the crime, it is still you who are responsible for having committed it, not just the person who gave the order. In other words, you can be convicted of a more prosaically defined crime such as rape or murder, if this provides a mechanism for punishing you.
  • III. Being a head of state or any government official does not exempt you from such responsibility. In other words, the principle of sovereign immunity does not apply to evil.
  • IV. The fact that you were following a direct order from your commander or any authority in your government does not exempt you from such responsibility. This was specifically included because "I was just following orders" (in any language;)) had always been a legitimate defense in the past. This principle has been elaborated extensively and is the basis for granting refugee status to a conscientious objector if his own government does not recognize conscientious objection as a reason for deferment from military service, or if it will punish him for his conscientious objection.
  • V. Anyone who is charged with violating international law is entitled to a fair trial. In other words, you can't execute someone without a trial just because you have him on videotape.
  • VI. Specific acts are predefined as violations of these principles. Crimes against peace include planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances; and participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of those acts. Crimes of war include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation of slave labor or for any other purpose of the civilian population of or in occupied territory; murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity. Crimes against humanity include murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connection with any crime against peace or any war crime.
  • VII. Just in case Principle VI. wasn't clear enough, complicity in the commission of a crime against peace, a war crime, or a crime against humanity as set forth in Principle VI is specifically defined as a crime under international law.
I realize that the O.P. also asks about justification for going to war in the first place, but you've gotten lots of responses to that part. I have answered the first part of the question. If you are already at war, and the world acknowledges that you are at war, the Nuremberg Principles list some very important things that you still can't do.

But note that the Nuremberg Principles do not anywhere state that they only apply during war! IMO the fact that you can't do those things when you're not at war is becoming more important. War is being supplanted by terrorism. There is no state, no command structure, no acknowledged leadership with whom to negotiate, from whom to accept a surrender, or to whom to offer one. Much of today's fighting is not war. No conflict in which the USA has engaged since the end of WWII has been a proper war because war was not formally declared by Congress, as required by our Constitution.

That doesn't matter. Our military personnel still can't violate the Nuremberg Principles.

I dream of that "Crimes against peace" thingie being enforced more vigorously in the future, perhaps in a future in which one single nation doesn't have a bigger army and more weapons than the whole rest of the world. Surely, a national leader who plans and orders the overthrow of a sovereign government, justified by a premise which he knows is fraudulent, is initiating a war of aggression and is guilty of a crime against peace.
 
Back
Top