Meteor.

Actually, the idea of God does not contradict the laws of the universe and nature. Your mistake is in the assumption that God is a thing. God is not a thing, for God is infinite, and only things are finite. There is no "thing" that is infinite. Metaphysics would say that every thing is a being, and every being is a thing (I think), while at the same time we name God a being. However, The being of God is being itself. Therefore, whatever has being (ie, a thing), has identity, for to be in any form is to have identity, however being itself has no identity. Furthermore, you are correct in saying that everything has a beginning, but again, God is not a thing, for God is infinite, and things are only finite. The very nature of the actually infinite denotes non-beginning, hence God does not have a beginning, and therefore needs no creator.

It is false to say God has identity, first because He is infinite. Secondly, even were the infinite to have identity, it would be false to say that to identify God is to negate. I would disagree that God is unknowable. God is knowable. I would also disagree that the human mind cannot comprehend God. God is comprehendable. However, I ask, do you know you mother? Yes, of course, but do you know her in her entirety, fully? I don't think any human knows anything in its entirety. However, that things are finite means that we CAN know them in their entirety (at least in theory). We may also know God, but the fact that God is infinite means, necessarily, that we cannot know God entirely, fully. To say that we cannot know God at all is a misnomer, since knowing one's self gives insight into what and who God is. I think that the best evidence of God isn't to be found in the external, but rather, the internal. "Know thyself." and perhaps the idea of God may become clearer.
 
Godless said:
If the sun had exploded via supernova we wouldnt be here!!
And thus one would assume that if the people who came up with the theory were rational they would be referring to a supernova from a nearby star.;)
 
I think that the best evidence of God isn't to be found in the external, but rather, the internal. "Know thyself." and perhaps the idea of God may become clearer.

Thus I awoke and looked in the mirror and saw god. God is I. *me.

Supernova is not a theory, it's observed realism.

http://chandra.harvard.edu/xray_sources/supernovas.html

Beyond, there's no emperical evidence of god. Period!. Everything after this is a BIG assumption, the monotheistic god is unknowable, you can only claim that you personally know god, from "with in", but yet you could not convince any one that has never ever heard of the comsept "god", that one exists. An individual with lack of knowledge of gods, demons, or anything mystical that he/she has not experienced by observing his reality, and then someone claims of an "invisible god" this person will ask for evidence of such a thing. You my friend can't provide it. Oh I feel it that this god exists, you say. I don't feel a thing which can be described as god like, says the individual.

God is truth you say. Truth for me has been what I objectively can see, hear or touch, my feelings, and emotions are subjective, from within, and I still don't feel anything foreign as a god. God is love you say. Love is an emotion, is god an emotion? no! you say, but god loves you. I don't "feel" loved by this invisible entity, just the other day I got robed, would an entity that loves me, with all the powers you claim it has let this happen?. then this god of yours can't possibly be all good. If he loves me yet lets harm come to me.

The Argument from EXISTENCE

Read the above link, it will point out "objectively" why it's metaphisically imposible for such a being to exist.

Godless.
 
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Godless: Thus I awoke and looked in the mirror and saw god. God is I. *me.

Supernova is not a theory, it's observed realism.

http://chandra.harvard.edu/xray_sources/supernovas.html

Beyond, there's no emperical evidence of god. Period!. Everything after this is a BIG assumption, the monotheistic god is unknowable, you can only claim that you personally know god, from "with in", but yet you could not convince any one that has never ever heard of the comsept "god", that one exists. An individual with lack of knowledge of gods, demons, or anything mystical that he/she has not experienced by observing his reality, and then someone claims of an "invisible god" this person will ask for evidence of such a thing. You my friend can't provide it. Oh I feel it that this god exists, you say. I don't feel a thing which can be described as god like, says the individual.

God is truth you say. Truth for me has been what I objectively can see, hear or touch, my feelings, and emotions are subjective, from within, and I still don't feel anything foreign as a god. God is love you say. Love is an emotion, is god an emotion? no! you say, but god loves you. I don't "feel" loved by this invisible entity, just the other day I got robed, would an entity that loves me, with all the powers you claim it has let this happen?. then this god of yours can't possibly be all good. If he loves me yet lets harm come to me.

The Argument from EXISTENCE

Read the above link, it will point out "objectively" why it's metaphisically imposible for such a being to exist.
*************
M*W: What??? You awoke and looked into a mirror and saw yourself? Liar, liar, pants on fire! You awoke and saw me! Moi! You saw me! You liar! Pants on fire! I am God! You saw me! Don't lie! I AM the empiracal evidence. Don't try to bullshit sciforums! I am God. God is me! Liar, liar, pants on fire! Moi, moi, moi!

You saw moi! Pants on fire! Is yo ass burning yet?
 
Godless said:
That whole Argument seems to hinge (very rusted hinge) on what ones definition of "the universe" and "existence" is. I'm not sure if he does... but does the guy define existence? What is existence? If you want to call "the universe" the sum total of existence you have to first define existence in its entirety. Using his example... 2 + 2 = 4. He's saying 4 [Universe] = 2 + 2 [Sum total of Existence]. Yet he hasn't defined what 2 is (he doesn't fully grasp what 2 is). Thus he doesn't know what "the universe" is. His argument finds it's base one these (and other definitions/concepts) so his argument is in essence... something like "Infinity/Infinity".
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So he (as he seems to adhere to Rand's definition) defines existence as identity. I for one don't understand that. In what context is he defining existence as identity? Same '4 = 2 + 2 but what is 2?' issue again. He is obviously using us as a reference. Identity is nothing more than being recognised in one form or the other. If existence is identity that would mean that before we identified quarks they didn't exist. Crap. They had to exist before we identified them or we wouldn't have identified them. Existence cannot be defined. Existence is a brute "hit you in the face" fact. You exist. Deal with it. Maybe he'd do better if he tried to argue from existence for God.
 
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Well, so far I've read "The Issue of Metaphysical Primacy," and find it entirely unconvincing. Mostly for the reason that I've believed in the primacy of existence all along. I would argue that most theist (or at the very least Catholic theologians and philosophers) would agree to the primacy of existence. God did not create existence, God IS existence. Existence is the broadest term, and the infinite is the broadest form of existence. That identity is even an axiom shows that the universe itself can't be actually infinite, and I would argue that these axioms apply entirely to the finite. Within an actual infinite existence, identity and consciousness are brought to their fullest extent. Ergo, all axioms are met within God, to their utmost, and absolute extent. The finite then would simply be made from the infinite. How? To answer this I have to address another issue.

The other issue is the question of the activity or passivity of consciousness. Consciousness is not simply one or the other, it is both. Consciousness isn't simply the faculty of awareness. It is a faculty of awareness, but it is also more. Consciousness can also affect reality. For example, when you will to move your arm, it moves. You can even shape reality outside of your own body THROUGH your body (ie, building a house after shaping the tools for it with your hands). The higher level of awareness, the more capable the conscious are able to manipulate reality. So, it stands to reason that the maximal awareness (to be found in the infinite) is going to be maximally capable of forming reality (which comes out of itself). Therefore, the world, universe and its laws, having come from the infinite, are akin to the infinite in nature, but not identical.

The author of the essay, "The Issue of Metaphysical Primacy" simply does not understand the concept of the infinite God, being maximal existence (existence itself), ergo having maximal consciousness.

To say "existence exists" is to assert God. It is not to say that whatever exists exists. For existing things aren't EXISTENCE ITSELF.
 
Originally posted by: David F.
These men are astronomers and physisists who are not young earthers and who do subscribe to naturalist evalution but who show that there cannot be even one more planet in the entire universe like Earth.

The universe is a big place. Weather you are a theist or an atheist it is a very very arrogant thing to think that there are is no other life out there. Why would God create such an expanse of universe and fill only one of the multitudes of planets with life? I do not understand what make people think that this planet is so special.
 
M*W: What??? You awoke and looked into a mirror and saw yourself? Liar, liar, pants on fire! You awoke and saw me! Moi! You saw me! You liar! Pants on fire! I am God! You saw me! Don't lie! I AM the empiracal evidence. Don't try to bullshit sciforums! I am God. God is me! Liar, liar, pants on fire! Moi, moi, moi!

You saw moi! Pants on fire! Is yo ass burning yet?

Funny!! LOL...
 
Beyond, and yet another defenition of god?. "God IS existence".

Please give me a break so what is the big daddy in the sky?.
Love, existence, unknowable,knowable,felt, supreme,supernatural,alpha&omega, for so many defenitions of your "god" Next you will claim that god is "whothehellknowswhat".

Godless.
 
*What is existence?

LOL...LOL what kind of idiot would ask this?.

Now you will argue that I don't exist, or that you don't exist, or that earth does not exist, or that you are reading this with your eyes that dont exist, because the only way you can actually discuss the point of what is existence is from NON EXISTENCE!!.
pendejo!!.

you dont know what two is? Your showing your stupidity!. :rolleyes:
Hold your fingers out, see two fingers get a Big Knife, cut TWO, and now you've got Eight fingers left. :D That is what two is!.

Gis, this theist is finally LOST HIS MARBLES!!.

Godless
 
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Well wether we can or even do know what God exactly is doesnt change what he is already. God is "love' God is "patients" is a system of showing "qualities" of what it means to be "good" in his eyes. So its meaningless to get bitter over something so small of a thing.
 
Actually, it isn't another definition. This way of designating God has been around for a long time. It follows in reasoning with God being an actual infinite. He is not a "big daddy in the sky" don't be rediculous. If God is an actual infinite, then God is every quality to it's maximal extent, and its simplest, ergo, yes, God IS love, existence, unknowable in FULL, knowable in PART, supreme, supernatural (which is not to be confused with unnatural, but rather, nature of a maximal kind), the beginning and the end, yes this would be accurate, since all things would come out of the infinite, and grow toward the infinite, all of these definitions can be summed up in the actual infinite.
 
GAY RIGHTS what the fuck is GAY RIGHTS????? Last time I READ my BIBLE I must have missed the part were GOD said PUT YOUR DICK IN HIS ASS??? What the fuck is WRONG with all the FAGS in NYC And S.F. Rosie,Ellen can get fucked whats next OPRAH!!!!!!!!! Will see when he comes to judge the living and the DEAD by this I mean All GAY COCK SUCKING FAGS will perish and All the NORMAL PEOPLE who FUCK NORMAL will LIVE just like it says in the BIBLE.THIS IS GAY RIGHTS put your dick in my mouth DUDE
 
beyondtimeandspace said:
Actually, it isn't another definition. This way of designating God has been around for a long time. It follows in reasoning with God being an actual infinite. He is not a "big daddy in the sky" don't be rediculous. If God is an actual infinite, then God is every quality to it's maximal extent, and its simplest, ergo, yes, God IS love, existence, unknowable in FULL, knowable in PART, supreme, supernatural (which is not to be confused with unnatural, but rather, nature of a maximal kind), the beginning and the end, yes this would be accurate, since all things would come out of the infinite, and grow toward the infinite, all of these definitions can be summed up in the actual infinite.
how can you SAY THAT GOD OKED YOU TO FUCK A DUDE
 
Flamer, by your very name you belie yourself. It is the conservative voter that is more likely to be against homosexuality, not the liberal one. You neither speak as Christian, nor understand what Christianity teaches. First of all, in the General Judgement, those who have chosen hate and evil will not perish, they will be resurrected like everyone else. What will happen to them is that they will experience everlasting deprivation, which is exactly what evil is. Secondly, to categorize homosexuals as "not normal" is false, since who is normal? If you mean to speak about sexuality, then the norm (that is, what is the majority) is then heterosexuality, and homosexuality may then be considered not normal. However, this would not mean that they are not normal people. I say this because each one of us is "not normal" in some way or other. Ergo, since we all are irregular in some form or other, then we are all normal in that regard, hence even homosexuals may be considered normal. Thirdly, God will not "judge" in the sense that you are used to understanding. The judgement that God will pronounce will simply be a recognition of how a person has lived, and the state of their soul. It will not be a "sentence-giving" judgement, as a judge in a courthouse judges. Rather, the punishment made is a self-inflicted punishment, which is what true hell is. Not all homosexuals will experience everlasting hell, just as not all heterosexuals will experience everlasting heaven. It is silly to pronounce such a judgement upon people of whom you have no idea of their hearts.

It is my bet, and I may be completely way off base, but I'm going to bet it anyway (even though I'll never get the real answer) that you are not even Christian. Rather, I consider you as someone pretending to be Christian in order to cloud the true identity of a Christian (even though there are plenty of honest people doing that already). Go do your dirty work elsewhere, such handiwork will not be mistaken on a forum in which intelligence is upheld.
 
Beyond; I practice with you me lack fo "debating skills" ;)

* Consciousness can also affect reality.

You claim that by moving my arm it's an effect on reality. No! when I move my arm I consciously will it to move, I think therfore electrical signals from my brain go to my arm to move it, just like I think and write this.!. There's no phenomenon going on here wich can't be explained.

To will reality the examples given is to make things that are metaphisical imposible, like turning water to wine, or walking on water. The mind is not able to will things that are contradictory to metaphisics. The mind is an intergrating organ we observe that which exists, not the other way around. That would be wishing or living by wims. You can wish all you want but once you have chosen to jump off a building, and mid way down you want to change your mind, its too late!! metaphisical existence of gravity will pull your body all the way down to the floor!! Splat your dead!. Wishing it that it were not so, will not save U from falling. wishing to fly from your demise will not happen, nothing can contradict the metaphisical existence of gravity.

When I write:

And I woke up and looked in the mirror and saw god, god is I.

I'm emplying that I'm in control of my own mind, my own body, my own destiny, my own decisions, my own spirit, *Spirit in the secular sense is the totallity of one's own life's experience. what one likes esthetically, emotionally,and experience of life.* That there's no such entity that exist that has governance over me. I have free will, and that I exist, the universe is a given, it exists. Existence is an axiom for in order to refute it, one would have to do it from the premice of non-existence.

The universe is a big place. Weather you are a theist or an atheist it is a very very arrogant thing to think that there are is no other life out there.

The arrogance comes from the beliefs of theists, that god has made them, that god is in control of them, and has influence in their thoughts, actions, and destiny. They FEEL special. This is why the earth was thought out to be the Center of the universe, the Geocentric theory from Heraclides (330 B.C.) was adopted by the church and if one were to refute it, you would be in comptempt of heresey, they either killed or jailed you, burnt you to make you confess your legience to the devil or all that crap that the "good church" did back in the "idiot ages" I mean darg ages.
However when Aristarchus of Samos (c. 310-230 BC), Greek astronomer, theorized the Heliocentric theory that the Earth rotates and revolves around the Sun. On this ground, Cleanthes the Stoic declared that he ought to be indicted for impiety.

Centuries latters Nicholas Copernicus had to publish his metaphisical studies of the universe damn near his death bed to escape religious prosecution. Nicholas

Godless.
 
I'ts late on this side of the pond, US. I'm too tired to continue.

see ya.

G.
 
OH SHIT. I recognize that poster. Anyone with a guess? FUCK I thought he wasn't coming back.
 
Are you not part of reality? If you are, then movement of your arm is an activity wrought by the conscious mind. I'm not trying to show you something unexplainable, I agree, it IS explanable. I'm simply asserting that the REAL movement of your arm is made to do so by a conscious mind, ergo the mind isn't simply passive, but also active. It is conceivable further, that the conscious mind is also capable of say, telepathy. This may be considered a greater form of affection on reality. How is it performed? Another matter, the fact is that once one is aware enough for it, then it may be done (for example). I'm not saying that sheer force of will will alter the reality around you. Of course not, first you must know how to do so. If it happens that we discover a way for the human mind to alter it's body's own gravitational field, then at that time such things as human flight may be possible. I'm not saying that the impossible can be done. I'm simply asserting that the human mind, a conscious mind, may have active affect on reality, as far as it's able. Right now, it would seem that the extent of it's ability to so is simply to move the body, and, through it, shape the world as it is able.

I would agree that you are in control of your mind (if not maximally), body (if not maximally), destiny(if not maximally), decisions, spirit (if not maximally), etc... Why do I say not maximally? Well, take your mind, for instance, do you have full use and control of your mind? Or just your thoughts? Do you ever daydream? How about your unconscious mind. I am not trying to say that you aren't in control of your mind... simply that you don't have full, or maximal control. Again, with your body. Can you make your heart stop on comman? How about accelerated healing? Perhaps you can control fat intake? or when you have to use the bathroom? I'm not saying you don't have control over your body. I'm simply asserting that your conrtol isn't full, or maximal. Destiny, and spirit. Do not other have influence in your experience? Perhaps the laws of a country influence your decisions, and so have perhaps a slight say in your destiny. I'm not saying you aren't in control, just that that control isn't maximal.

I accept and agree with the control you have in your life, as well as the control I have in my life. God doesn't control me, nor has governance over me. Part of divinity, or Image of God, is free will. Most theists would agree that we control our lives, that we govern our lives. If God has any governance in a person's life, it is a governance that is asked for and desired, ergo, free will is still intact, since the desired governance is not a contradiction of it. I exist, the universe exists. Existence is an axiom, I agree.

As for those actions of the Church members in the Dark Ages, all Christians can do is but apologize for them. The Catholic Church recognizes that it is simply a religious institution, and does not have any kind of final say in what science affirms as truth, nor history, nor philosophy. As a religious institution, the Catholic Church simply claims authority on faith and morals. This isn't to say that members of the Catholic Church can't break moral laws. We're human. As for Murder, it is something considered morally deprave, and so the Church would not recognize those actions of the people of the dark ages to be truly Christian, particularly since the Church isn't a scientific institution. Likewise, the actions of the pedophilic priests is also condemned by the Church. Such actions are deprave, and not condoned by the Church. Any attempt to ignore such actions would also be considered wrong by the Church.

The point is, humans are weak, both ignorant and yielding. Just because someone claims to believe in something, doesn't mean they understand what they say they believe, nor does it mean that they will follow that belief to the T. They SHOULD, I know. But the crude fact is that many, or even most, don't. If you are to judge a religion, judge it by it's teachings, and make sure those teachings are understood by you, so you can't simply read from a book, since words have many meanings. Teachings must be understood and explained, before a proper judgement can be made about anything. The concept of evolution, for example, is probably not understood by many people who condemn it. Furthermore, such condemners probably don't really understand what they believe anyway. Before one gives a "final judgement" about something, it must be considered until it is fully understood.

From speaking to you, Godless, it is clear that your notion of who and what God is, is based upon a misconception, a misconception that is entirely not your fault. It is the fault of those who hold the notion of God, but do not understand that notion themselves. So, by your understanding of God, as far as I can glean, I would also conclude that such a being couldn't possibly exist. However, my understanding of God is entirely different, and by it I have concluded that such a notion COULD, and probably does have reality.

So then the problem is this: Too many people believe in a false notion of God. Non-believers then remain as such, since such a notion is foolish, and believers with any wit would also see that misconcepted idea of God as foolish, and become non-believers themselves. Once someone, who has a clearer (though certainly not perfect) notion of who and what God is comes along, he/she is scoffed at because they are considered to have just "made up" another God among numerous that are already seen as silly. So their clearer conception of God is then dismissed without proper consideration. The problem is, GOD, as such, isn't getting proper consideration, and so a proper judgement on whether to believe in such a one is reasonable or otherwise isn't being made.
 
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