Meteor.

[SnakeLord]

I find there are several issues that are largely forgotten about by people who debate theology, but are of just as much importance as other issues. In this particular instance, I refer to meteorites.

We all know what meteorites are, we have seen first hand the destruction that meteorites and comets cause, (Jupiter), and have 'left-over' evidence wherever we look- from Mars to the moon, to our own planet.

I would like to raise some points and ask some questions for the attention of anyone who believes in genesis-literal creation, and even more so young earthers. I would like to come to some conclusion to how they reconcile their beliefs when faced with something such as meteorite impacts.

We know of 171 identified meteor craters, ranging in size from under 1km to hundreds of kilometers in diameter. If you believe in genesis creation, then you must accept that all of these meteorites would have impacted our planet while humans were living on it.

If you believe in a young earth, the numbers get really small.. Let's put the young earth age at 10,000 years which seems to be a good general figure. Now, with the current 171 impact craters, it would mean that 1 meteorite would have had to crash land on this planet every 54 years from the start of the world until now. Forget the fact that science has dated these as vastly older than anything close to 10,000 years, and tell me if you can somehow justify a belief in a young earth, or that humans would have been around during these impacts - when there is seemingly no record, nor cause to show that such a thing is true.

We can forget the little craters, which wouldn't cause too much damage - but when we're faced with a crater several hundred kilometers in diameter we must start looking at what would have happened to mankind.

Further to that, can you then justify why our planet, (along with most others), has spent it's history as gods giant dart board. Would you state these impacts as accidents or as an act of god?

Remember, according to someone who takes the creation story literally, these massive pieces of rock would have been falling on earth while mankind inhabited it. If you believe that god made everything, do you have an opinion on why he made massive space rocks that crash land on planets - while his creation are happily walking around on it?

Now we need to take a quick look at the dinosaurs. Would you accept that they were made extinct by meteorites? If so, why, (as man would also have been around at the same time), would only the dinosaurs have been made extinct while humans didn't even seem to notice?

From here we could delve onto into a whole load of inter-related questions, but my interest for now is how a genesis-literal creation believer or young earther, works around the presence of impact craters on earth.

Anyway, I would like to hear your side of it, and even perhaps some old texts describing massive meteor impacts.

Thnx.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I have the slight impression that you meant christians by your mail, but here is my take on it from a Muslim perspective.

I notice that your entire case rests on the pressumption that earth existed for only 10000 years (or whatherver). I think that the piramides are older than that. So 10 000 is waay too small a number. Note here that the age of the planet and that of humankind is definately not the same.

Furthermore I believe Earth to be much older that the human species. When Adam and Eve descended from haeven the earth was already there with its animals and all.

:m:

 

[duendy]

you are both literalizing mythology

 

[SnakeLord]

I notice that your entire case rests on the pressumption that earth existed for only 10000 years (or whatherver).

Well I thought it would have been apparent from the actual post, but I don't have a "case". I have merely asked how those who believe in a young earth/literal creation reconcile the fact that this planet has been bombarded by huge meteorites. I am personally aware that the planet is a lot older than 10,000 years, which is why this post is not aimed towards myself, but those who hold a different belief concerning the age of earth.

Furthermore I believe Earth to be much older that the human species. When Adam and Eve descended from haeven the earth was already there with its animals and all.

So if you could indulge me for a second.. Would this be accurate:

allah makes a planet which he inhabits with certain life, (plants/dinosaurs). Eventually he decides to put man on it, so kills the dinosaurs using some large meteroites, then puts man and a whole new bunch of animals on the planet?

If so, could I ask why? Is there any reasoning or explanation behind this god creating a planet full of dinosaurs in the first place?

Duendy:

you are both literalizing mythology

It shows you have nothing to offer, so why bother? However, where have I done that which you claim? I've merely asked a question to those who believe in a young earth or literal creation.

In future be kind enough to read the post before responding to it.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Since there are people (and quite a lot) who profess to believe that the World was created precisely as described in the Biblical Genesis, which means in six days, roughly 6.000 years ago, the question is very pertinent.

There are lot of awkward questions to ask to such people. Personally, I prefer starlight (most of which has been underway towards us for vastly longer times) and ice-cores (which go back close to 200.000 years), but the meteorite angle is new to me, and a good one.

Of course, such discussions are based on the presumption that Young Earth Creationists are interested in applying logic at all, which, in my experience, is mostly not the case.

Hans

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Well I thought it would have been apparent from the actual post, but I don't have a "case".

You misunderstand me. With the word case I don't mean claim. I mean experiment.

I have merely asked how those who believe in a young earth/literal creation reconcile the fact that this planet has been bombarded by huge meteorites. I am personally aware that the planet is a lot older than 10,000 years, which is why this post is not aimed towards myself, but those who hold a different belief concerning the age of earth.

That was clear. And I am answering as someone who believes in creation as was revealed in the Qur'an.

So if you could indulge me for a second.. Would this be accurate:

Allah makes a planet which he inhabits with certain life, (plants/dinosaurs).

I haven't really researched whether dinosaurs existed and how they went extinct, but o.k. I am not denying it. I simply never cared. But let's take that for granted.

Eventually he decides to put man on it,...

I would say He dicided to put man on Earth all along. Him beying beyond time.

...so...

if we were to say that, we would be assuming that they were cleared out of the way to make space for humans. That might be true, but there could be (an)other reason(s) too/instead.

kills the dinosaurs using some large meteroites, then puts man and a whole new bunch of animals on the planet?

If that is what contemporary science says..

If so, could I ask why? Is there any reasoning or explanation behind this god creating a planet full of dinosaurs in the first place?

I don't have the answer to that. Could be anything. I think that it serves to hold in mind that it isn't all about man.

:m:

 

[surenderer]

Bruce,

'as-salâmu calaykum.......I heard that this refers to Dinosaurs:


He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs. (The Noble Quran, 31:10)"


I know that the "haters" would say that could mean ANY Beast but dogs,cats cows etc.... all are named by their names in Koran and Sunnah.anyways I dont really see how it matters in the"Big picture"

 

[Thersites]

We know of 171 identified meteor craters, ranging in size from under 1km to hundreds of kilometers in diameter. If you believe in genesis creation, then you must accept that all of these meteorites would have impacted our planet while humans were living on it.

If you believe in a young earth, the numbers get really small.. Let's put the young earth age at 10,000 years which seems to be a good general figure. Now, with the current 171 impact craters, it would mean that 1 meteorite would have had to crash land on this planet every 54 years from the start of the world until now. Forget the fact that science has dated these as vastly older than anything close to 10,000 years, and tell me if you can somehow justify a belief in a young earth, or that humans would have been around during these impacts - when there is seemingly no record, nor cause to show that such a thing is true.

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/ estimates that 18000 to 84000 meteorites enter the earth's atmosphere every year actually- rather more than your 171. True, most of them don't reach the ground, but there are still much more than 171 impacts per annum. Given that none are the size of the alleged sites you claim are caused by meteorite strikes, then a young-earther could claim that it is up to you to demonstrate that any of these were caused by meteorites and were not there when the earth first appeared or was made.

 

[SnakeLord]

estimates that 18000 to 84000 meteorites enter the earth's atmosphere every year actually- rather more than your 171.

Ok my apologies for not explaining myself to such a thorough degree. The '171' figure, is the number of meteorites that have left craters. The 18000+ figure is that of pebble/baseball sized rocks that leave little more than a dent. I wasn't referring to these, because they are of no relevance to the point.

I was talking more about impact craters such as chicxulub, vredefort and sudbury.

Given that none are the size of the alleged sites you claim are caused by meteorite strikes

Well I hate to have to tell you you're wrong, but not only can you go and see these impact craters for yourself, but I'm certain there are many sources available both through printed media and internet based that will provide details of impact craters, including age, size and location.

A great map source can be found Here

For further references it would be worth spending some time at NASA's site - although site navigation isn't all that straightforward.

then a young-earther could claim that it is up to you to demonstrate that any of these were caused by meteorites and were not there when the earth first appeared or was made.

The answer to that is somewhat simple, not only apparent when you look at them, but backed up by surrounding deposits, the K-T layer and so on.

I have no idea what made you say; "Given that none are the size of the alleged sites you claim are caused by meteorite strikes", but it is quite simply baseless.

 

[Thersites]

Sorry. too curt:No contemporary meteor impacts are anything like the size of the ones you cite, so a young earther could simply say that the earth was created with these apparent impact sites already there. I don't know if you've come across Omphalos by Philip Gosse, but he was a nineteenth century naturalist whose response to Darwin was to assert that creation took place with prehistory built in- I oversimplify- and a creationist can use exactly the same argument with meteor craters.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Interesting.

:m:

 

[FieryIce]

We know of 171 identified meteor craters, ranging in size from under 1km to hundreds of kilometers in diameter. If you believe in genesis creation, then you must accept that all of these meteorites would have impacted our planet while humans were living on it.

If you believe in a young earth, the numbers get really small.. Let's put the young earth age at 10,000 years which seems to be a good general figure. Now, with the current 171 impact craters, ...that humans would have been around during these impacts - when there is seemingly no record, nor cause to show that such a thing is true.

Anyway, I would like to hear your side of it, and even perhaps some old texts describing massive meteor impacts.

Thnx.

You're assuming the only thing to make craters is a meteor and the ancient records of ones with magical technologies could not have made a crater several times larger than Sedan crater.

 

[parasite]

One more example of how a 'young earther' can take any example and twist to support their idea.
If someone believes that earth was created by god, you can't touch them - they have an excuse for everything. I'm not trying to be condesending, but don't come to me and claim the creationism in a science when your only support is 'God made it that way'

 

[SnakeLord]

Sorry. too curt:No contemporary meteor impacts are anything like the size of the ones you cite

What are you chatting about? Every planet we know of has ones even larger than these. The explosions caused on Jupiter by each comet fragment were the size of earth. Don't be fooled into thinking that every meteor impact is the size of a doughnut. Even now scientists are wary of, and keep an eye out for meteorites that might end up slamming into earth, and one was somewhat close back in the 80's. Flybys of meteorites also show just how large they can be, and the kind of damage they would cause.

Just because you personally haven't seen a 300km diameter meteorite crash land on this planet, doesn't mean you can dismiss or ignore the evidence.

You're assuming the only thing to make craters is a meteor

Not at all, there's many other craters cause by other means. One such example would be Ramon crater in Israel. However, it's quite easy to work out the differences between a crater caused by something other than a meteorite, and a crater caused by a meteorite. However, this post was specifically about meteorite impact craters, and so other kinds are somewhat irrelevant to it.

What I really can't get to grips with are people who would seriously suggest that dinosaurs/meteor impact craters were "created" along with the earth as opposed to coming up with a realistic answer.

 

[Godless]

What I really can't get to grips with are people who would seriously suggest that dinosaurs/meteor impact craters were "created" along with the earth as opposed to coming up with a realistic answer.

Realistic answers from theists?..Good luck!!.

One of the daddy of all meteors I believe was the one in Chicxulub, Yucatan Mexico.
http://www.solarviews.com/cap/earth/chicxulb.htm scientist believe this one was the one that blacked out the sun, and brought an ice-age destroying the dinos..

I guess god was not too happy with Dino sin!!.

Godless.

 

[Thersites]

What are you chatting about? Every planet we know of has ones even larger than these. The explosions caused on Jupiter by each comet fragment were the size of earth. Don't be fooled into thinking that every meteor impact is the size of a doughnut. Even now scientists are wary of, and keep an eye out for meteorites that might end up slamming into earth, and one was somewhat close back in the 80's. Flybys of meteorites also show just how large they can be, and the kind of damage they would cause.

However, the fact that they haven't hit is proof that god stops them.

Just because you personally haven't seen a 300km diameter meteorite crash land on this planet, doesn't mean you can dismiss or ignore the evidence.

If a 300km meteor did hit, we probably wouldn't be around to see the evidence.

Not at all, there's many other craters cause by other means. One such example would be Ramon crater in Israel. However, it's quite easy to work out the differences between a crater caused by something other than a meteorite, and a crater caused by a meteorite. However, this post was specifically about meteorite impact craters, and so other kinds are somewhat irrelevant to it.

Not to a creationist: god created the earth with the apparent meteor craters already there. To them there are craters not caused by meteors indistinguishable from those caused by meteorites because ythey're caused by god to look like they're caused by meteors

What I really can't get to grips with are people who would seriously suggest that dinosaurs/meteor impact craters were "created" along with the earth as opposed to coming up with a realistic answer.

The trouble is: to them it is a realistic answer.

 

[MarcAC]

I find there are several issues that are largely forgotten about by people who debate theology, but are of just as much importance as other issues. In this particular instance, I refer to meteorites.

Not forgotten... ignored. Anything is possible for God. Irrational and impossible? Well it seems anything is possible anyway... so why not say anything is possible for God? Why shouldn't anything be possible for God?

Forget the fact that science has dated these as vastly older than anything close to 10,000 years, and tell me if you can somehow justify a belief in a young earth, or that humans would have been around during these impacts - when there is seemingly no record, nor cause to show that such a thing is true.

As some said before... some might believe history was an effect created by God to make us more tolerant of our surroundings. A built-in effect. It seems Einstein might have agreed with them to an extent. Maybe God made him just a bit too smart.

Further to that, can you then justify why our planet, (along with most others), has spent it's history as gods giant dart board. Would you state these impacts as accidents or as an act of god?... Remember, according to someone who takes the creation story literally, these massive pieces of rock would have been falling on earth while mankind inhabited it. If you believe that god made everything, do you have an opinion on why he made massive space rocks that crash land on planets - while his creation are happily walking around on it?

No implications either way... we're still here.

Now we need to take a quick look at the dinosaurs. Would you accept that they were made extinct by meteorites? If so, why, (as man would also have been around at the same time), would only the dinosaurs have been made extinct while humans didn't even seem to notice?

Some say volcanoes, some say a supernova, some even say that dinosaurs never lived on earth at all! In fact, they think they may have arrived to earth, already, fossilised when there was some catastrophic impact. Who knows? You might find Dinosaur fossils on the moon.

Regardless... it's always wise to keep an open mind.

 

[Godless]

*Some say volcanoes, some say a supernova,

If the sun had exploded via supernova we wouldnt be here!!.

*Well it seems anything is possible

yea and the matrix is real. If you believe that I've got a gold watch I want to sell!!.

Godless.

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

Realistic answers from theists?..Good luck!!.

Come now Godless, have some faith.

I just happen to be a theist, and I must disagree. The Catholic Church recognizes that evolutionary processes occur, but affirms that the human soul could not be a product of evolution.

However, I take that to mean that because evolutionary processes occur doesn't simply mean that Evolution (as a theory) occurred according to the pupular mentality, but rather that just as an organism may change from egg form into adulthood, so too, perhaps, was life meant to change from it's "egg" stage into adulthood, according what "egg" originated. This would rule out "survival of the fittest" and "evolution by random mutation."

It seems to me that if God is infinite, then God contains all the laws of the universe within Himself, as well as the "stuff" that makes up anything in the universe, and probably all things were formed out of Him. This, seeming logically true in concept, would mean that to create the universe in completion, without all the necessary pre-growth that the universe would seem indicative of, would be to break the very laws of the universe from the very moment of creation. It seems to me that for God to break the laws of the universe would be to break laws that are a part of His very essence. This, obviously, can't be the case, since that would be a contradiction to the nature of God, which most theologians would say cannot be done.

Ergo, the Earth, and the universe, created, but by means which any form of knowledge can understand, including science.

Thus you have a sensible and reasonable answer from a theist, as far as I can tell.

 

[Godless]

I just happen to be a theist, and I must disagree. The Catholic Church recognizes that evolutionary processes occur, but affirms that the human soul could not be a product of evolution.

A "soul" is an invented notion of "form" by Plato.

It seems to me that for God to break the laws of the universe would be to break laws that are a part of His very essence.

The very idea of god is a contradiction to the laws of the universe and nature, god will not stand with the laws of metaphysics. A thing must have identity, god has none. The only assertions to the identity of god, is to negate, i.e. "god is unknowanble, the mind of man can't comprehend god. The othe assertions of god's identity are truly subjective.

If we were to postulate that god existed, what created it?. Whence did it come to being?. Everything by the laws of metaphysics has a begining, so therefore this "god" must of had a beggining, if it did was it created?. Nothing existed, WHAMM!!! god existed? then created the universe and earth in seven days?. man that's just a bit too much to swalow!. And swalow I did when I was a younger man, blame my atheism on education, self education. I never attended college.

Godless.