Me and my Christianity

B

BlueMoose

Guest
I´m baptised to be Christian in the Lutheric way in Finland. I´ve been studying in my freetime different religions and now I have troubles with my "own" religion. Because I cant specify the trouble just free flow of mind or something like that...
In Christianity the most important symbol is "dying God" on the cross, little perversity in that ? We killed God (because we didnt want to be as pure as He was, it was easier to get rid off Him ?) and He did suffer on the cross and did liberate us from our sins, now we can do sin as much as we want, then repent and then get to paradise ? Like Mob-guys, first drive-by-shooting, then ten Ave-Marias and all is good...Is there something fundamentally twisted in Christianity, like the dooms-day omens with second coming and all that. Well, I mean if you believe all those dooms-day-scenarious it is obvious that that is what is gonna happen, we are gonna drive for it because "so has been written".?. Lets look some oriental religions, like Buddhism and the way of Tao. There is not that kind pessimistic scenarios, quite opposite, those are "made" in the way that humans could learn something about humanity and its place in cosmos, those dont give you easy answers but make you think or leave it. This is not an attack towards Christianity, I just think ALL institutionalized religions sucks, those has come tools to control people ? I like to think there is so much what we dont understand in spiritual world, I think Indians and all those groups who live respecting nature are much more wiser spirirually than we mater-lovers. Its so damn hard to keep your mind clear in this new-time-media-carneval, too much information and choices to be made. I would like to have an bible where is nothing else than words from Jesus, just quotes. Bibble seems to be cooked by so many cooks over the years. Gotta say that I havent read it through, I think I did suffer overdose in school and get little allergic. In school at religions-studys we never analyze, just memorising different names and stuff, very boring.
I pay my taxes to church but never there but in funerals, weddings and so.
Our religion-type is fear of the God mentality, not very happy tone in it.
Believe or you are gonna burn in hell...And so I believe.
Has somebody else here troubles like I have ?
And finally, sorry if my english are little crappy :)
 
read: The Gospel According to Jesus, A New Translation and Guide to His Essential Teachings for Believers and Unbelievers, by Stephen Mitchell.

While I agree with much of what you say, you still accept some of the basic concepts of Christianity:
I think Indians and all those groups who live respecting nature are much more wiser spirirually than we mater-lovers.
Click to expand...
It is a Christian attitude to distrust matter, and artificially separate everything into "material" and "spiritual". If we were really materialistic, we would love the material, and protect (or at least not interfere with) nature, and would have a healthier attitude towards sex. It is important to know that Christianity is not necessarily the teachings of Jesus.
 
BlueMoose said:
This is not an attack towards Christianity, I just think ALL institutionalized religions sucks, those has come tools to control people ?
Click to expand...

BlueMoose, I respect your opinions up til now. But you may judge christianity since you have been living it (!) and (aparently) pondered hard about it. But, in case you meant Islam as one of the institutionalized religions, that doesn't mean that all religions Abrahamic religions are the same.

In fact Muslims boast in that where christianity is unclear, or absurd, we, Muslims have the uncorrupted words of God. I urge you to find out more about it, especially the parts that discuss the failings of christianity (eternal sin, dying god, man-god...etc)

May peace be upon you.
 
In fact Muslims boast in that where christianity is unclear, or absurd, we, Muslims have the uncorrupted words of God.
Click to expand...
That should put you off right there. It's just two sides of the same coin. In fact, if anyone claims to have the ultimate truth, I consider their claim to be wrong. But since my claim that their claim is wrong is a sort of ultimate truth, I am just as easily wrong, or right. In the end it's entirely personal.
 
LOL, I love it when the faithful start in with the tired old "my religion is better than yours"
 
spidergoat said:
read: The Gospel According to Jesus, A New Translation and Guide to His Essential Teachings for Believers and Unbelievers, by Stephen Mitchell.

While I agree with much of what you say, you still accept some of the basic concepts of Christianity:

It is a Christian attitude to distrust matter, and artificially separate everything into "material" and "spiritual". If we were really materialistic, we would love the material, and protect (or at least not interfere with) nature, and would have a healthier attitude towards sex. It is important to know that Christianity is not necessarily the teachings of Jesus.
Click to expand...

No, it's a Platonic attitude, that's been grafted onto Christianity. If Christianity truly despised matter, why would the two most important holidays in Christianity celebrate the fact that Jesus was incarnate?

Anyways ...

Moose - as I understand it, we didn't kill God, according to Christian teachings. God willed it. It was prophesized. It came to pass. The Romans and the Jews? Agents of God's will.

Also, I wouldn't call Buddhism or Taoism religious, so much as philosophies. But that's just quibbling.
 
Jesus was killed by the law that condemns sin in us, as human beings, but God would not let an innocent be condemned, and gave proof of this when He resurrected Jesus. The problem is that we are still accused by that law. Even more so now, because people condemned God himself when He provided salvation!

StarOfEight, to say we didn't kill God is to deny our part in sin. Sin is not God's will. God willed the law to point out sin, and forgiveness to those who repent and turn away from sin. Jesus volunteered death, so that people who had faith could combine it with certainty and joy, and that sinners could have faith and hope where there was none before.

BlueMoose said:
now we can do sin as much as we want, then repent and then get to paradise?
Click to expand...
Maybe you should spend more time studying your own religion.
1 John 3:6
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.​
You can't have the knowledge that God forgives sin, and therefore ask Him for forgiveness - and still sin. The one precludes the other. That amounts to blasphemy of the truth - rejecting the Spirit of truth; the unforgiveable sin. You either believe in God and repent, or you return to your sin and are worse off than before.
 
Spidergoat, StarOfEight,

Regarding being material -- could we explain the mixed emotions and evaluation regarding the material thus:

Humans are able to think, this makes them separate the "material" and the "spiritual" -- the basic differentiation between the concrete and the abstract.
If you take a concrete apple, that's an apple -- but how do you recognize it as a member of the category 'apple'? It's a spiffy thing our brain does. What if this very differentiation is the basis of the devaluation of the material and overevaluation of the abstract -- because for each phenomenon, there is only one abstract and several concretes.
While at the same time, without the concretes, no abstracts can be made, hence the mixed emotions.

Religion would then be a way to cognitively, emotionally, and socially reconcile the abstract and the concrete.

Ya think?
 
“ Originally Posted by BlueMoose
This is not an attack towards Christianity, I just think ALL institutionalized religions sucks, those has come tools to control people ? ”


"BlueMoose, I respect your opinions up til now. But you may judge christianity since you have been living it (!) and (aparently) pondered hard about it. But, in case you meant Islam as one of the institutionalized religions, that doesn't mean that all religions Abrahamic religions are the same.

In fact Muslims boast in that where christianity is unclear, or absurd, we, Muslims have the uncorrupted words of God. I urge you to find out more about it, especially the parts that discuss the failings of christianity (eternal sin, dying god, man-god...etc)"

-Maybe I will pick up Quran one day but now I´m little more intrested of those older writings, Tao, Kungfutse, Veda and that stuff.

-Well, I was little hard on that point I think. What I did mean by that was things like hmmm, lets say Vatican. Little institutionalized dont you think, all that wealth and glory, and its history...well, there is nothing more spiritual in it than any other kingdoms history. If driven by holy spirit (God etc.) will you need all that made-up authority and glorius gold palaces and so on ? If drived by holyness, do you need to convert people to religion by force or should it be that those who see your holyness will come to you ?

-My beliefs on God are from many religions/philosophies. I´m only Christian because I have taught so, I really have no choice back then when I was little kid. I think it make no difference what religious-pool you are in, it your actions what counts.
I think that all the religions are basically the same, explanations how the universe works and how we can live in harmony with the universe. Some religions going little deeper with their explanations than other. My God is everything/nothing there is. We are all energy, its how we put that energy in the use what determines us are we with God or against it, or something like that lol... Ask me questions about bibble and I try to answer how I see that particulal event, just for fun you know, I´m not a theology or all knowing profet LOL
Its more for me than for you, I would like to get some answers for my forever on going search for "truth". Man can have fun while thinking such a serious things, can we ?
 
Christianity doesn't dispise matter.

In Christianity the most important symbol is "dying God" on the cross, little perversity in that ? We killed God (because we didnt want to be as pure as He was, it was easier to get rid off Him ?)
Click to expand...
Only some killed Jesus for that reason.

Like Mob-guys, first drive-by-shooting, then ten Ave-Marias and all is good...Is there something fundamentally twisted in Christianity, like the dooms-day omens with second coming and all that. Well, I mean if you believe all those dooms-day-scenarious it is obvious that that is what is gonna happen, we are gonna drive for it because "so has been written".?
Click to expand...
Because the exact date of doom day isn't known, any given person can attempt to save the world and curtail dooms day a few hundred years.
 
Jenyar said:
Jesus was killed by the law that condemns sin in us, as human beings, but God would not let an innocent be condemned, and gave proof of this when He resurrected Jesus. The problem is that we are still accused by that law. Even more so now, because people condemned God himself when He provided salvation!

StarOfEight, to say we didn't kill God is to deny our part in sin. Sin is not God's will. God willed the law to point out sin, and forgiveness to those who repent and turn away from sin. Jesus volunteered death, so that people who had faith could combine it with certainty and joy, and that sinners could have faith and hope where there was none before.


Maybe you should spend more time studying your own religion.
1 John 3:6
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.​
You can't have the knowledge that God forgives sin, and therefore ask Him for forgiveness - and still sin. The one precludes the other. That amounts to blasphemy of the truth - rejecting the Spirit of truth; the unforgiveable sin. You either believe in God and repent, or you return to your sin and are worse off than before.
Click to expand...


Jesus died for his own sins not mine!

How can you say he died for the sins of people who wouldn't be born for 2000 years?
It would have been simpler if god hadn't created sin in the first place wouldn't it?
 
gort said:
It would have been simpler if god hadn't created sin in the first place wouldn't it?
Click to expand...
its like this:
Christian religion created this disease called SIN
and now they keep selling the cure which is ...JESUS

never mind that theres no evidence for god,jesus,spirits,and all the holly books are full of contradictory statements.
logic just doesnt seem to exist in believers vocabulary
 
BlueMoose said:
I´m baptised to be Christian in the Lutheric way in Finland. I´ve been studying in my freetime different religions and now I have troubles with my "own" religion. Because I cant specify the trouble just free flow of mind or something like that...
In Christianity the most important symbol is "dying God" on the cross, little perversity in that ? We killed God (because we didnt want to be as pure as He was, it was easier to get rid off Him ?) and He did suffer on the cross and did liberate us from our sins, now we can do sin as much as we want, then repent and then get to paradise ? Like Mob-guys, first drive-by-shooting, then ten Ave-Marias and all is good...Is there something fundamentally twisted in Christianity, like the dooms-day omens with second coming and all that. Well, I mean if you believe all those dooms-day-scenarious it is obvious that that is what is gonna happen, we are gonna drive for it because "so has been written".?. Lets look some oriental religions, like Buddhism and the way of Tao. There is not that kind pessimistic scenarios, quite opposite, those are "made" in the way that humans could learn something about humanity and its place in cosmos, those dont give you easy answers but make you think or leave it. This is not an attack towards Christianity, I just think ALL institutionalized religions sucks, those has come tools to control people ? I like to think there is so much what we dont understand in spiritual world, I think Indians and all those groups who live respecting nature are much more wiser spirirually than we mater-lovers. Its so damn hard to keep your mind clear in this new-time-media-carneval, too much information and choices to be made. I would like to have an bible where is nothing else than words from Jesus, just quotes. Bibble seems to be cooked by so many cooks over the years. Gotta say that I havent read it through, I think I did suffer overdose in school and get little allergic. In school at religions-studys we never analyze, just memorising different names and stuff, very boring.
I pay my taxes to church but never there but in funerals, weddings and so.
Our religion-type is fear of the God mentality, not very happy tone in it.
Believe or you are gonna burn in hell...And so I believe.
Has somebody else here troubles like I have ?
And finally, sorry if my english are little crappy :)
Click to expand...

Your English is pretty good.

You seem to be blaming Christianity for wishing to make sense of all the Evil in the World. Yes, the escapist Religions of the Orient do their best to hide from Evil and pretend it does not exist. But Civilizations cannot flourish until they confront Evil and at least in some degree defeat it.

But, yes, Christianity does have its problems, not the least of which is that Christianity was largely subverted by paul who interpreted the Murder of Christ as an excuse to Sin... that the Death of Christ was a Sacrifice which would justify and Forgive Sin. This is why I suppose Paul was the Antichrist.

The True Christian Church which has the sponsorship of Heaven is the Church of The Virgin Mary. It is She who still upholds the Teachings of Christ. It has also been the Church of the Virgin Mary that has known all of the Saints. The Catholic Church's -- both the Orthodox and the Roman, which both have High Regard for the Blessed Virgin, have had dozens of Saints. The Protestant Church's, on the otherhand, have gone 500 years without ever having even their first Saint. Can a Religion be considered a valid Religion if it cannot produce an authentic Saint?
 
"You seem to be blaming Christianity for wishing to make sense of all the Evil in the World."

-That wasnt my intention. Because Christianity is what I´m lived with, so that religion I wonder. It could be Islam too. What I wonder is that why there is so many variations of both, Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, Sunni, Shia, Sikhi and so on. Somebody has always felt that he got the rights to adjust a little. Why. Or are they all prophets ?
Are they all right or are they all wrong ? Which one I pick ? Lao, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammed or could it be all of them ? And why they fight each other ? Least at in some cases there was need for control/power ?
For example our own country: We did have our own Gods, based on nature. We were
shaman-tribe. If used for good deeds whats wrong with that. Something was wrong since they (Christian church) did convert us to right path so to speak. We still read at school that old mythology of ours but just to cherish our past. Little pagan is still in us :)

"Yes, the escapist Religions of the Orient do their best to hide from Evil and pretend it does not exist. But Civilizations cannot flourish until they confront Evil and at least in some degree defeat it."

-Could be so. But if those religions can show to you how to live with God, is there anything more to know ? If you dont live by it, you are somewhat "in evil side" ?
Evil is in eye of a beholder. The fight evil vs goodness is going on in individuals mind,
those choices what we do everyday every moment.

"Can a Religion be considered a valid Religion if it cannot produce an authentic Saint?"

-This one I have to chew more...something wrong with Protestants you reckon ?

Thank you for the feedback.
 
BlueMoose" said:
Can a Religion be considered a valid Religion if it cannot produce an authentic Saint?"

-This one I have to chew more...something wrong with Protestants you reckon ?
Click to expand...

Protestants really don't have a Religion... what they have is a doctrinal excuse to avoid Religion. Look at their core belief -- that Christ was murdered for the forgiveness of their sins so that Sinners could for ever more simply waltz into Heaven, claiming some special exemption to the ethical rules everyone else must follow, because they 'believe' in the Saving Power of the Death of Christ. It is a NONE-Religion. An Anti-Religion.

Protestants also renounce Mary the Blessed Virgin and the Immaculate Conception. The Prophet Simeon, the Last Prophet of the Hebrew Dispensation, predicted that it would be on the issue of Mary whereby we could judge the True from the False... that the False would stab Mary through the Heart with the Sword of Insult. Is that not what the Protestants have consistently done these many hundreds of years? It is why they cannot produce a Saint. Grace flows from Christ, through Mary. You cannot cut off Mary without cutting off Grace.

Sufis understand. the Sanskrit Traditions of India understand. Their Traditions are rich in the appreciation that God's Connection to the World is through the Feminine Aspect of Divinity. It is a kind of 'Mother Nature' kind of thing, no?
 
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