Mass Murderers as objects of admiration

[Oli]

The following statement (about Jack the Ripper) prompted this thread.

I belive he was admirable for his abiliteas if slightly odd. He is the best of his group. I admire him for what he did and i belive that everyone can be admired for their acts melevolent or benighn for their pure ingenuity.

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2299379&postcount=262

Should someone be admired for their ingenuity, regardless of what they've done?

"I really admire X, he was cool"
"But he killed 57 people, man"
"Well yeah, but he was good at designing nail bombs, you have to give him credit for that" :shrug:

 

[EmmZ]

I think it follows along the same line of thought as "Wow, look how majestic the lion is as he rips out the throat of that gazelle". There are some people who find a beauty in that kind of killing and an admiration in the ability to be very effective in their means. To say that a pathological killer is an object of admiration may come from admiring the person's ability in what they do, in that case one could admire a pedophile who manages to create a ring of pedophiles so well hidden that their efforts should be admired. Or someone who has affair after affair and never gets caught because of their ingenuity and ability to lie well. I can't say admiration of ingenuity can be separated from their actions since it is primarily their actions that govern their need for such cold and calculated tactics. It's unfortunate (to say the least) that the dedication and efforts of these criminals are directed at something quite hideous, the fact they have used such ingenuity makes their crimes perhaps even more abhorrent.

 

[Norsefire]

I think so. Although this doesn't mean one admires murder, but rather the intelligence and cunning of the murderer...as these are qualities not found in most people

 

[Oli]

So it's having intelligence and cunning that counts, not the uses to which they're put?
Interesting...

 

[Norsefire]

So it's having intelligence and cunning that counts, not the uses to which they're put?
Interesting...

To an extent, yes. As I said, arguably the majority of people are simply ignorant sheep. When intelligence and cunning are observed, on those rare occasions, it's admirable although murder itself isn't

 

[Oli]

And there's nothing deplorable about the fact someone who has the intelligence decides to use it against society or other people?
Damn, if only I'd known.
Life could have been so much easier (although possibly shorter/ more restricted in my later years).

 

[FelixC]

I think it follows along the same line of thought as "Wow, look how majestic the lion is as he rips out the throat of that gazelle". There are some people who find a beauty in that kind of killing and an admiration in the ability to be very effective in their means. To say that a pathological killer is an object of admiration may come from admiring the person's ability in what they do, in that case one could admire a pedophile who manages to create a ring of pedophiles so well hidden that their efforts should be admired. Or someone who has affair after affair and never gets caught because of their ingenuity and ability to lie well. I can't say admiration of ingenuity can be separated from their actions since it is primarily their actions that govern their need for such cold and calculated tactics. It's unfortunate (to say the least) that the dedication and efforts of these criminals are directed at something quite hideous, the fact they have used such ingenuity makes their crimes perhaps even more abhorrent.

I agree

I also think that many people would lose that admiration quickly if they became the next victim

 

[jpappl]

Should someone be admired for their ingenuity, regardless of what they've done?

I think it sometimes can be a gray area, for example military men who are admired even though they may have done things in battle that most would consider inhumane.

But in general admiration can be separated from accomplishments.

I can say so and so was a genius, he invented the ***
But he was a monster of a person and I wouldn't let him watch my pet fish.

 

[Norsefire]

And there's nothing deplorable about the fact someone who has the intelligence decides to use it against society or other people?

Depending on your view. One might easily accept this on the notion that it is only moral to pursue your selfish interests; for instance, the philosophical notion of egotism or individualist anarchism

Although generally speaking, intelligence and cunning in themselves are admirable. Even if they aren't used for "good"

 

[Oli]

I can say so and so was a genius, he invented the ***
But he was a monster of a person and I wouldn't let him watch my pet fish.

That, to my mind, is a slightly different thing (although I could be wrong).
This is regarding the likes of Jack the Ripper, Yorkshire Ripper, possibly various IRA bombers, pick your own "favourites" if you're not a UK citizen (911 bombers?).
Are mass murderers i.e. those who murder because they want to (or god told them to) admirable for their ingenuity?
Just because they avoid detection long enough to have a lengthy "career" makes them admirable? (Or they come up with a "clever" way of perpetrating their atrocities?)

 

[Oli]

Although generally speaking, intelligence and cunning in themselves are admirable. Even if they aren't used for "good"

Okey doke.
Watch yourself next week; I may start a new, much easier path to fame.

 

[Norsefire]

Okey doke.
Watch yourself next week; I may start a new, much easier path to fame.

I'm shaking in my boots

Although, one could ask the question: if I am too weak to fight back, do I deserve to die?

 

[Oli]

I'm shaking in my boots

Although, one could ask the question: if I am too weak to fight back, do I deserve to die?

Fight?
Pfft fighting is for the unintelligent.
I'm gonna be smart subtle and sneaky.
You won't even know you're dead until it's too late!
Ah, the first of thousands...

 

[Norsefire]

I did intend it as a serious question though.......but OK

Why do I get the privelage of being your first victim, oh Master Oli?

 

[Oli]

I did intend it as a serious question though.......but OK

As in "survival of the fittest"?
Merely because I happen to think of (several) ways of killing people without being caught does that mean I should implement them?
Does it mean that someone who hasn't considered these methods "deserves" to die?
Does it improve the race or hinder it that someone has a method (or three) of, er, ingeniously amusing themselves while making things less crowded?

Why do I get the privelage of being your first victim, oh Master Oli?

Why not?
Nah, it's unlikely it'd be you anyway Norse, I'd have to raise enough money from my, um, unwitting benefactors to get the air fare before I "tour" abroad.
Maybe I should have a T-shirt made with venues and dates.

 

[Norsefire]

As in "survival of the fittest"?
Merely because I happen to think of (several) ways of killing people without being caught does that mean I should implement them?

No, but it means that you can implement them if you want

Does it mean that someone who hasn't considered these methods "deserve" to die?

That isn't what it's about. It's about strength and cunning; if someone murders another, for whatever reason, and the victim is unable to fight back, does the victim deserve to die? Does it matter?

Does it improve the race or hinder it that someone has a method (or three) of, er, ingeniously amusing themselves while making things less crowded?

It hinders it....but I don't think murderers care about the species (race is not the same thing, quick correction)

Why not?
Nah, it's unlikely it'd be you anyway Norse, I'd have to raise enough money from my, um, unwitting benefactors to get the air fare before I "tour" abroad.
Maybe I should have a T-shirt made with venues and dates.

I guess you're right....you need to start locally.......get drunk in the pub....y'know

 

[Oli]

No, but it means that you can implement them if you want
That isn't what it's about. It's about strength and cunning; if someone murders another, for whatever reason, and the victim is unable to fight back, does the victim deserve to die? Does it matter?

Does someone deserve to die by car crash? The pedestrian who happens to be in the wrong spot as the car slews out of control?
So does it make me admirable that I have these methods?
Does it make me more admirable if I prove it by implementing them?

It hinders it....but I don't think murderers care about the species (race is not the same thing, quick correction)

Meh, okay. Human race...

I guess you're right....you need to start locally.......get drunk in the pub....y'know

Well there's one advantage: I don't get drunk.
And I'm smart enough to NOT start in my local - and any witnesses in the new pub wouldn't be testifying...

 

[jpappl]

Are mass murderers i.e. those who murder because they want to (or god told them to) admirable for their ingenuity?

No. It's a lot harder to raise a child then it is to figure out a way to kill people and get away with it.

Just because they avoid detection long enough to have a lengthy "career" makes them admirable? (Or they come up with a "clever" way of perpetrating their atrocities?)

Exactly. If for example I wanted to become rich and that was something that you would consider me admirable for because I built up a company selling *** and employed lots of people and was an honest successful businessman.

Is the person that robbed banks and killed anyone in their way to get rich offered that admiration as well.

Those with the greatest accomplishments can get there by being a horrible person and sometimes that's what it takes.

I don't have admiration for them. The accomplishment can stand alone.

Emmz is correct in that many are able to hide their bad deeds which sometimes are exposed.

Star athletes who take steroids for example.

 

[PsychoTropicPuppy]

Well, you could always admire someone for being sooooo destructive. And damn, this guy is awesome! He killed soooooooooo many people. Oh wait...haha it was his soldiers who did that...damn it. Looks like he wasn't all that cool after all. It's easy to give orders....but to fulfil them? Nah, that's an other story.

Plus I always thought it was much harder to build something. Destroying something seems so easy...to me. Nothing admirable about that.

Anyway, depends on how much we benefited from what they did. But sadly I can't remind myself of any mass murderer who'd meet up with said criteria.

 

[swarm]

Should someone be admired for their ingenuity, regardless of what they've done?

It happens. It helps if they are seen as having redeeming features, are an under dog, and at least seem to be fighting an oppressor.

El Cid, Robinhood, William Tell, George Washington, etc.

I would seriously question the standards of someone putting Jack the Ripper in such company though.