Martillo talks about the twin paradox

I am saying that the whole situation as described in either twin's frame is not symmetric. So there is no principle that tells you that they should age at the same rate in either twin's frame, and the twin's ages and ageing rates aren't the only things that are different. Like I keep saying each twin sees the other twin Doppler shifted but not himself Doppler shifted for example. You get that even in classical physics.
You are confusing with the meaning of "seeing" in the context of the twins' problem. Doppler shift is not present in the twins' problem. When it is informally said "what the twin see..." it actually means "what the twin observe..." what means "which is the relativistic prediction of the twin..." what implies in Lorentz transform with base on the twin which is instantaneous with no Doppler shift at all.


Put simply, you are drawing a much stronger conclusion than the symmetry in your scenario actually allows you to draw. There are a number of things you can deduce from the symmetry between the twins, but "they should be the same age in both twins' frames" is not one of them.
Well, which are your predictions in both travelling twins' frames of observation then? You are saying that they are not symmetric, which are your predictions then? I'm curious to know your solutions. Make the assumptions you want to do (for accelerations for instance), just make it sure both twins make a perfect symmetric travel as this is the main assumption of the proposed "symmetric twins' paradox" theoretical problem.
 
You are confusing with the meaning of "seeing" in the context of the twins' problem. Doppler shift is not present in the twins' problem.

Er, yes it is: each twin sees the other Doppler shifted.


When it is informally said "what the twin see..." it actually means "what the twin observe..." what means "which is the relativistic prediction of the twin..." what implies in Lorentz transform with base on the twin which is instantaneous with no Doppler shift at all.

This doesn't fundamentally change what I'm talking about. I am pointing out that what each twin measures for himself is generally not the same as what he measures for the other. The Doppler shifts are a simple, obvious example of this: they're something each twin can measure, and each twin measures a different Doppler shift for the other twin than he does for himself. The "actual" time each twin ascribes to the other twin (with the Doppler shift e.g. corrected for) is much less practical to observe, but in principle it is just another measurement each twin can make.


Well, which are your predictions in both travelling twins' frames of observation then? You are saying that they are not symmetric, which are your predictions then? I'm curious to know your solutions. Make the assumptions you want to do (for accelerations for instance), just make it sure both twins make a perfect symmetric travel as this is the main assumption of the proposed "symmetric twins' paradox" theoretical problem.

For simplicity I'll consider the scenario where both twins start a distance $$2D$$ from one another and instantaneously accelerate to the speed $$v$$ toward one another at the same time, as seen in the starting "rest" frame. In the "rest" frame, putting the origin on the left twin's starting location, we could describe the left twin's trajectory, in terms of his own proper time $$\tau_{\mathrm{L}}$$, as

$$
\begin{eqnarray}
t &=& \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{L}} \\
x &=& \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{L}}
\end{eqnarray}
$$​

(i.e. you have $$x = vt$$), where $$\gamma = \gamma(v) = 1/\sqrt{1 - v^{2}/c^{2}}$$. The right twin's trajectory, also described in terms of his proper time $$\tau_{\mathrm{R}}$$, is

$$
\begin{eqnarray}
t &=& \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \\
x &=& 2 D \,-\, \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{R}}
\end{eqnarray}
$$​

(i.e. you have $$x = 2D - vt$$). In the "rest" frame, both twins cross at $$x = D$$ at the time $$t = D/v$$, at which point both twins have aged by $$\tau = \frac{D}{\gamma v}$$.

I'll describe how to work out what happens in the left twin's frame; by symmetry you will get analogous results for the right twin's frame.

Since the left twin is instantaneously accelerating to a new inertial state, his reference frame for $$\tau_{\mathrm{L}} \,>\, 0$$ is simply given by a Lorentz transformation of the "rest" frame coordinates:

$$
\begin{eqnarray}
t' &=& \gamma (t \,-\, \frac{v}{c^{2}} x) \\
x' &=& \gamma (x \,-\, vt) \,.
\end{eqnarray}
$$​

As a matter of consistency, you can easily check that $$t'$$ coincides with left-twin's proper time along his trajectory: $$t' = \gamma^{2}(1 - v^{2}/c^{2}) \tau = \tau_{\mathrm{L}}$$, and left-twin is always sitting at $$x' = 0$$.

To work out right-twin's trajectory in left-twin's frame for the period after left-twin has accelerated, we simply apply the above Lorentz transformation to right-twin's trajectory. The result is:

$$
\begin{eqnarray}
t' &=& \tilde{\gamma} \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \,-\, 2 \gamma \frac{v}{c^{2}} D \\
x' &=& 2 \gamma D \,-\, 2 \gamma^{2} v \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \,,
\end{eqnarray}
$$​

where $$\tilde{\gamma} = \frac{1 + v^{2}/c^{2}}{1 - v^{2}/c^{2}} = \gamma(\tilde{v})$$ with $$\tilde{v} = \frac{2v}{1 + v^{2}/c^{2}}$$ (Lorentz velocity addition formula).


Key features of this result:

1. For $$t' = 0$$, you find $$\tau_{\mathrm{R}} = \frac{\tilde{v} D}{\gamma c^{2}}$$ with $$\tilde{v}$$ as defined above. So as a result of left-twin's instantaneous acceleration, and the instantaneous change in how left-twin defines simultaneity, right-twin's age instantaneously jumps from $$\tau_{\mathrm{R}} = 0$$ (immediately before left-twin's acceleration) to $$\tau_{\mathrm{R}} = \frac{\tilde{v} D}{\gamma c^{2}}$$ (immediately after left-twin's acceleration).

2. Right-twin ages at a rate of $$1 / \tilde{\gamma}$$, with $$\tilde{\gamma}$$ defined above, just as we would expect from the SR time dilation formula.

3. The twins intersect where right-twin reaches $$x' = 0$$, which you can algebraically work out occurs when right-twin's clock reads $$\tau_{\mathrm{R}} = \frac{D}{\gamma v}$$. This is exactly the age worked out above when considering the situation in the "rest" frame.

4. Left-twin's age where they cross is the value of the $$t'$$ coordinate when right-twin crosses $$x' = 0$$. If you substitute $$\tau_{\mathrm{R}} = \frac{D}{\gamma v}$$ from observation 3 above into $$t' = \tilde{\gamma} \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \,-\, 2 \gamma \frac{v}{c^{2}} D$$, you also get $$t' = \frac{D}{\gamma v} = \tau_{\mathrm{L}}$$. So when the twins cross, they have both aged by $$\frac{D}{\gamma v}$$.

All these results are as described in left-twin's frame. The description of events in the right twin's frame is analogous.


Summary of the situation:

In the left twin's frame, the right twin's clock starts at $$\tau_{\mathrm{R}} = 0$$, immediately jumps to $$\tau_{\mathrm{R}} = \frac{\tilde{v} D}{\gamma c^{2}}$$ when the left twin accelerates instantaneously, then continues to accumulate time at the rate $$1 / \tilde{\gamma}$$ (the rate predicted by the SR time dilation formula), until they cross with both twins' clocks reading $$\tau_{\mathrm{L}} = \tau_{\mathrm{R}} = \frac{D}{\gamma v}$$. The situation in the right twin's frame is similar except with the results for the left and right twins interchanged.
 
I find two errors/mistakes in this part:
To work out right-twin's trajectory in left-twin's frame for the period after left-twin has accelerated, we simply apply the above Lorentz transformation to right-twin's trajectory. The result is:

$$
\begin{eqnarray}
t' &=& \tilde{\gamma} \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \,-\, 2 \gamma \frac{v}{c^{2}} D \\
x' &=& 2 \gamma D \,-\, 2 \gamma^{2} v \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \,,
\end{eqnarray}
$$​

where $$\tilde{\gamma} = \frac{1 + v^{2}/c^{2}}{1 - v^{2}/c^{2}} = \gamma(\tilde{v})$$ with $$\tilde{v} = \frac{2v}{1 + v^{2}/c^{2}}$$ (Lorentz velocity addition formula).
First, although the definition of $$ \tilde{\gamma}$$ is right the expression you obtained is wrong although seems it is not actually used in your conclusions.
Second, the set of the two equations of the Lorentz transform you developed for the right-twin:
$$
\begin{eqnarray}
t' &=& \tilde{\gamma} \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \,-\, 2 \gamma \frac{v}{c^{2}} D \\
x' &=& 2 \gamma D \,-\, 2 \gamma^{2} v \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \,,
\end{eqnarray}
$$​
presents two different gammas and so seems like you are "mixing frames" someway. I agree the right twin has associated a $$ \tilde{\gamma}$$ but only this one must appear in the equations. What the left twin observes can be deduced by a Lorentz transform with this $$ \tilde{\gamma}$$ value in the equations and the first $$ \gamma$$ must not appear. It must work independently of the observation and so the transform and its gamma value of the not travelling twin.

The intention is to obtain the relativistic predictions of one travelling twin for the other one. New pair of frames (K,K') must be considered in each case always with the K frame attached to the observing twin (the observer). The relative velocity v' (your $$ \tilde{v}$$) between the travelling twins is (as you defined) determined by the relativistic addition of the velocities from the frame of the not travelling twin what determines the gamma' (your $$ \tilde{\gamma}$$) for the new set of two equations of the Lorentz transform that must be applied. As the situations are completelly symmetrical the same identical Lorentz's transforms are obtained and so same identical relativistic prediction from one observing twin to the other twin is obtained: the other aging less. There is the paradox.
 
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I find two errors/mistakes in this part:

First, although the definition of $$ \tilde{\gamma}$$ is right the expression you obtained is wrong

How so? The easiest way to work it out is to calculate $$\tilde{\gamma}^{2}$$ and then take the square root of the final result:

$$
\begin{eqnarray}
\tilde{\gamma}^{2} &=& \frac{1}{1 \,-\, \tilde{v}^{2}/c^{2}} \quad \text{ with } \tilde{v} \,=\, \frac{2v}{1 \,+\, v^{2}/c^{2}} \\
&=& \frac{1}{1 \,-\, \frac{4 v^{2} / c^{2}}{(1 \,+\, v^{2}/c^{2})^{2}}} \\
&=& \frac{(1 \,+\, v^{2}/c^{2})^{2}}{(1 \,+\, v^{2}/c^{2})^{2} \,-\, 4 v^{2}/c^{2}} \\
&=& \frac{(1 \,+\, v^{2}/c^{2})^{2}}{(1 \,-\, v^{2}/c^{2})^{2}} \,,
\end{eqnarray}
$$​

So $$\tilde{\gamma} \,=\, \frac{1 \,+\, v^{2}/c^{2}}{1 \,-\, v^{2}/c^{2}}$$ like I said.

Second, the set of the two equations of the Lorentz transform you developed for the right-twin:
$$
\begin{eqnarray}
t' &=& \tilde{\gamma} \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \,-\, 2 \gamma \frac{v}{c^{2}} D \\
x' &=& 2 \gamma D \,-\, 2 \gamma^{2} v \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \,,
\end{eqnarray}
$$​
presents two different gammas and so seems like you are "mixing frames" someway. I agree the right twin has associated a $$ \tilde{\gamma}$$ but only this one must appear in the equations.

I'm not sure this is clear to you, but the Lorentz transformation I applied is from the "rest" frame (where I defined the scenario in a symmetric way) to the left twin's frame (because I want the left twin's point of view), so the transform's velocity is $$v$$ and the Lorentz factor is $$\gamma = \gamma(v)$$ (without the tilde). The $$\tilde{\gamma}$$ just comes from applying that Lorentz transformation to the right twin's trajectory and simplifying a bit (you get a factor of $$\gamma^{2} (1 \,+\, v^{2}/c^{2})$$, which as I explained above is simply $$\tilde{\gamma}$$).

I didn't bother developing much further since I didn't find it necessary, but it's also not difficult to show that $$2 \gamma^{2} v \,=\, \tilde{\gamma} \tilde{v}$$, which you can use to write the equation for $$x'$$ as

$$x' \,=\, 2 \gamma D \,-\, \tilde{\gamma} \tilde{v} \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \,.$$​

If you rearrange the expression for $$t'$$ and substitute, you can write the right twin's trajectory in the left twin's frame as

$$x' \,=\, 2 \gamma D (1 \,-\, \frac{\tilde{v}v}{c^{2}}) \,-\, \tilde{v} t' \quad \text{ (for } t' \,>\, 0 \text{)} \,, \quad(*)$$​

so we find that the right twin's velocity is $$-\tilde{v}$$, as we should, and $$2 \gamma D (1 \,-\, \frac{\tilde{v}v}{c^{2}})$$ just represents the right twin's initial position in the left twin's frame just after he's accelerated, given that they start a distance $$2 D$$ apart in the "rest" frame (and each twin's own frame just before accelerating).


What the left twin observes can be deduced by a Lorentz transform with this $$ \tilde{\gamma}$$ value in the equations and the first $$ \gamma$$ must not appear. It must work independently of the observation and so the transform and its gamma value of the not travelling twin.

I stated this above but it's important so I'll insist on it. I defined the scenario in the "rest" frame, and I was applying a Lorentz transformation from the rest frame to the left twin's frame, and not from the right twin's frame. I never just assumed I should use $$\tilde{\gamma}$$ and $$\tilde{v}$$. I always used $$\gamma$$ and $$v$$ and then recovered $$\tilde{\gamma}$$ and $$\tilde{v}$$ in some places just by simplifying.

For example, you get the expression for $$t'$$ by substituting $$t \,=\, \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{R}}$$ and $$x \,=\, 2D \,-\, \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{R}}$$ into $$t' \,=\, \gamma(t \,-\, \frac{v}{c^{2}} x)$$. Developing this you get:

$$
\begin{eqnarray}
t' &=& \gamma \bigl( \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \,-\, \frac{v}{c^{2}} ( 2D \,-\, \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{R}} ) \bigr) \\
&=& \gamma^{2} \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \,-\, 2 \gamma \frac{v}{c^{2}} D \,+\, \gamma^{2} \frac{v^{2}}{c^{2}} \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \\
&=& \gamma^{2} (1 \,+\, v^{2}/c^{2}) \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \,-\, 2 \gamma \frac{v}{c^{2}} D \\
&=& \tilde{\gamma} \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \,-\, 2 \gamma \frac{v}{c^{2}} D \,.
\end{eqnarray}
$$​

(Notice something important here: I assumed the right twin had a velocity $$-v$$ and a time dilation factor of $$\gamma$$ in the "rest" frame, and from that I am deriving that his velocity is $$-\tilde{v}$$ and time dilation factor is $$\tilde{\gamma}$$ in the left twin's frame after the acceleration. Assuming one implies the other.)

Similarly, if you substitute $$t \,=\, \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{L}}$$ and $$x \,=\, \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{L}}$$ into $$t' \,=\, \gamma(t \,-\, \frac{v}{c^{2}} x)$$, the expression for $$t'$$ simplifies to $$t' \,=\, \tau_{\mathrm{L}}$$. This is how you show that $$t'$$ corresponds to the time measured by the left twin's clock.
 
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How so? The easiest way to work it out is to calculate $$\tilde{\gamma}^{2}$$ and then take the square root of the final result:

$$
\begin{eqnarray}
\tilde{\gamma}^{2} &=& \frac{1}{1 \,-\, \tilde{v}^{2}/c^{2}} \quad \text{ with } \tilde{v} \,=\, \frac{2v}{1 \,+\, v^{2}/c^{2}} \\
&=& \frac{1}{1 \,-\, \frac{4 v^{2} / c^{2}}{(1 \,+\, v^{2}/c^{2})^{2}}} \\
&=& \frac{(1 \,+\, v^{2}/c^{2})^{2}}{(1 \,+\, v^{2}/c^{2})^{2} \,-\, 4 v^{2}/c^{2}} \\
&=& \frac{(1 \,+\, v^{2}/c^{2})^{2}}{(1 \,-\, v^{2}/c^{2})^{2}} \,,
\end{eqnarray}
$$​

So $$\tilde{\gamma} \,=\, \frac{1 \,+\, v^{2}/c^{2}}{1 \,-\, v^{2}/c^{2}}$$ like I said.
You were right, I calculated it wrongly.

Edited: Now I'm thinking on the rest of your post...
 
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I stated this above but it's important so I'll insist on it. I defined the scenario in the "rest" frame, and I was applying a Lorentz transformation from the rest frame to the left twin's frame, and not from the right twin's frame. I never just assumed I should use $$\tilde{\gamma}$$ and $$\tilde{v}$$. I always used $$\gamma$$ and $$v$$ and then recovered $$\tilde{\gamma}$$ and $$\tilde{v}$$ in some places just by simplifying.

For example, you get the expression for $$t'$$ by substituting $$t \,=\, \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{R}}$$ and $$x \,=\, 2D \,-\, \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{R}}$$ into $$t' \,=\, \gamma(t \,-\, \frac{v}{c^{2}} x)$$. Developing this you get:

$$
\begin{eqnarray}
t' &=& \gamma \bigl( \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \,-\, \frac{v}{c^{2}} ( 2D \,-\, \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{R}} ) \bigr) \\
&=& \gamma^{2} \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \,-\, 2 \gamma \frac{v}{c^{2}} D \,+\, \gamma^{2} \frac{v^{2}}{c^{2}} \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \\
&=& \gamma^{2} (1 \,+\, v^{2}/c^{2}) \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \,-\, 2 \gamma \frac{v}{c^{2}} D \\
&=& \tilde{\gamma} \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \,-\, 2 \gamma \frac{v}{c^{2}} D \,.
\end{eqnarray}
$$​
A problem I find in your calculations is that when developing the Lorentz transform for the right travelling twin (in relation to the left travelling twin) you mantained the initial distance between both twins as being $$2D$$ but I think you forgot that for the travelling twins that initial distance (relativistic length) is different, there would be some length contraction you didn't account for. I mean the initial distance between both travelling twins is different as seen from the non travelling twin than as seen by the travelling twins. Some adjustment involving the relative velocity $$\tilde{v}$$ must be present. You also should have to use that adjusted value of the initial distance to calculate the initial time $$\tau_{\mathrm{R}}$$ for the right twin.

But further, I think the starting point in your development is wrong. You should have started with a Lorentz transform with the gamma $$\tilde{\gamma}$$ in both equations (that's the gamma between the travelling twins) and after make the substitutions and simplifications you judge necessary. If not you are just repeating the same transform with the same parameters just expressed in other way.

The right procedure is to start considering a new pair of frames (K.K') with the appropiated parameters (like the proper gamma) each time we will consider the Lorentz transform for a different observer. Don't you think this is the right approach?
 
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A problem I find in your calculations is that when developing the Lorentz transform for the right travelling twin (in relation to the left travelling twin) you mantained the initial distance between both twins as being $$2D$$ but I think you forgot that for the travelling twins that initial distance (relativistic length) is different, there would be some length contraction you didn't account for. I mean the initial distance between both travelling twins is different as seen from the non travelling twin than as seen by the travelling twins. Some adjustment involving the relative velocity $$\tilde{v}$$ must be present. You also should have to use that adjusted value of the initial distance to calculate the initial time $$\tau_{\mathrm{R}}$$ for the right twin.

All of this is already accounted for in the Lorentz transformation I applied. Just after the left twin has accelerated, the right twin's trajectory is described by the trajectory I gave in my previous post (note: there was an error that I've since corrected.) It's possible to simplify it further to

$$x' \,=\, 2 \frac{\gamma}{\tilde{\gamma}} D \,-\, \tilde{v} t' \,.$$​

This describes the right twin travelling at velocity $$- \tilde{v}$$ as he should. Just after the acceleration the right twin's distance from the left twin is no longer $$2 D$$ but has reduced to $$2 \frac{\gamma}{\tilde{\gamma}} D$$.

The fact that there is still a $$\gamma$$ in this initial distance isn't really surprising by the way, because $$2 D$$ is the initial distance between the twins before they accelerate. After they accelerate, the twins are moving at a speed $$v$$, and not $$\tilde{v}$$, relative to their initial "rest" standard in which the


But further, I think the starting point in your development is wrong. You should have started with a Lorentz transform with the gamma $$\tilde{\gamma}$$ in both equations (that's the gamma between the travelling twins) and after make the substitutions and simplifications you judge necessary. If not you are just repeating the same transform with the same parameters just expressed in other way.

There is no one uniquely correct way to solve this problem, since the very way relativity is defined guarantees you will get the same result no matter which reference frame you start from. Strictly speaking, if you just want to predict the ages of the two twins when they cross over, then this whole exercise is a waste of time. Proper time is an invariant quantity in relativity, so it is really, genuinely, rigorously enough just to show that the twins are the same age when they cross over by working everything out in the "rest" frame.

But you also want to know how things are described in each twin's frame, so I am doing that for you too. There is more than one way I could do that. The way I've chosen to do it - which is perfectly correct - is to define the scenario in the "rest" frame and then work out what's happening in the left and right twin's frames. That makes sense to me because it is effectively what you did, including describing how the twins are initially synchronised in the rest frame. This makes things easy because you can easily see that the scenario is defined in a symmetric way in the "rest" frame, and working out what happens in each twin's frame is a matter of applying an appropriate Lorentz transformation. The way I'm setting up the problem also means that I can make the accelerations instantaneous, which means I can avoid using methods that are usually reserved for GR.

By the way, another way to think of the Lorentz transformation I am applying is that it relates the left twin's coordinate system after he accelerates to the coordinate system he would have used if he hadn't accelerated.

If you want to work things out in some different way, e.g. without making any reference to the "rest" frame, then please be explicit about it and in particular how you define the initial conditions.
 
There are some things I still don't understand in your development and it would take time for me to work about to discuss them properly with you. Time is something I don't have too much nowadays. My daily work is demanding much of it nowadays. May be I could take on this again at some time.
 
A problem I find in your calculations is that when developing the Lorentz transform for the right travelling twin (in relation to the left travelling twin) you mantained the initial distance between both twins as being $$2D$$ but I think you forgot that for the travelling twins that initial distance (relativistic length) is different, there would be some length contraction you didn't account for. I mean the initial distance between both travelling twins is different as seen from the non travelling twin than as seen by the travelling twins. Some adjustment involving the relative velocity $$\tilde{v}$$ must be present. You also should have to use that adjusted value of the initial distance to calculate the initial time $$\tau_{\mathrm{R}}$$ for the right twin.
Not at all. $$2D$$ is the spatial displacement between the twins as measured in the $$(t,x)$$ "rest coordinates".

For simplicity I'll consider the scenario where both twins start a distance $$2D$$ from one another and instantaneously accelerate to the speed $$v$$ toward one another at the same time, as seen in the starting "rest" frame. In the "rest" frame, putting the origin on the left twin's starting location, we could describe the left twin's trajectory, in terms of his own proper time $$\tau_{\mathrm{L}}$$, as

$$
\begin{eqnarray}
t &=& \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{L}} \\
x &=& \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{L}}
\end{eqnarray}
$$​

(i.e. you have $$x = vt$$), where $$\gamma = \gamma(v) = 1/\sqrt{1 - v^{2}/c^{2}}$$. The right twin's trajectory, also described in terms of his proper time $$\tau_{\mathrm{R}}$$, is

$$
\begin{eqnarray}
t &=& \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \\
x &=& 2 D \,-\, \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{R}}
\end{eqnarray}
$$​

Thus $$\tau_R = \tau_L = 0$$ forces $$\begin{pmatrix}\Delta t \\ \Delta x \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{R}} - \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{L}} \\ 2 D \,-\, \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{R}} - \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{L}} \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} 0 \\ 2 D \end{pmatrix}$$, which is a space-time displacement that is purely spatial.

Now in the inertial coordinates of the left twin during the time of the left twin's inertial motion, we have for the left twin:
$$\begin{eqnarray} t' & = & \gamma( t - \frac{v}{c^2} x ) & = & \gamma \left( \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{L}} - \frac{v}{c^2} \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{L}} \right) & = & \gamma^2 ( 1 - \frac{v^2}{c^2} ) \tau_{\mathrm{L}} & = & \tau_{\mathrm{L}} \\ x' & = & \gamma( x - v t ) & = & \gamma \left( \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{L}} - v \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{L}} \right) & = & \gamma v ( \tau_{\mathrm{L}} - \tau_{\mathrm{L}} ) & = & 0 \end{eqnarray} $$
And in the inertial coordinates of the left twin during the time of the left twin's inertial motion, we have for the right twin:
$$\begin{eqnarray} t' & = & \gamma( t - \frac{v}{c^2} x ) & = & \gamma \left( \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{R}} - \frac{v}{c^2} ( 2 D - \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{R}} ) \right) & = & \gamma^2 ( 1 + \frac{v^2}{c^2} ) \tau_{\mathrm{R}} - \frac{2 \gamma v}{c^2} D \\ x' & = & \gamma( x - v t ) & = & \gamma \left( 2 D - 2 v \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \right) & = & 2 \gamma D - 2 \gamma^2 v \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \end{eqnarray} $$

So if we are talking about the same space-time displacement as above, then $$\tau_R = \tau_L = 0$$ and $$\begin{pmatrix}\Delta t' \\ \Delta x' \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} \gamma^2 ( 1 + \frac{v^2}{c^2} ) \tau_{\mathrm{R}} - \frac{2 \gamma v}{c^2} D - \tau_{\mathrm{L}} \\ 2 \gamma D - 2 \gamma^2 v \tau_{\mathrm{R}} - 0 \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} - \frac{2 \gamma v}{c^2} D \\ 2 \gamma D \end{pmatrix}$$, which is not purely spatial in the left twin's inertial coordinate system. However $$ ( c \Delta t' )^2 - (\Delta x')^2 \; = \; \left( - \frac{2 \gamma v}{c^2} D \right)^2 - \left( 2 \gamma D \right)^2 \; = \; 4 \gamma^2 \left( \frac{v^2}{c^2} - 1 \right) D^2 \; = \; - 4 D^2 \; = \; ( c \Delta t )^2 - (\Delta x)^2$$ and this quantity is an invariant measure of space-time displacement which doesn't depend on choice of inertial coordinate system.

The Lorentz transformations and the invariant space-time interval are more fundamental than length contraction. Naive application of length contraction does not solve all space-time problems in special relativity. To recover length contraction, you need the left and right twins in parallel motion and compare the purely spatial space-time separation of them at simultaneous times in different coordinate systems.

side track: length contraction

If we change the right twin to be parallel to the left twin, then we get:
$$
\begin{eqnarray}
t &=& \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{R}} \\
x &=& 2 D \, {\Large \mathbf{+} } \, \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{R}}
\end{eqnarray}
$$​

Thus $$\begin{pmatrix}\Delta t \\ \Delta x \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{R}} - \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{L}} \\ 2 D \, {\Large \mathbf{+} }\, \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{R}} - \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{L}} \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} \gamma \left( \tau_{\mathrm{R}} - \tau_{\mathrm{L}} \right) \\ 2 D + v \Delta t \end{pmatrix}$$, and $$\Delta t = 0$$ forces $$\begin{pmatrix}\Delta t \\ \Delta x \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} 0 \\ 2 D \end{pmatrix}$$, which is a space-time displacement that is purely spatial.
And in the inertial coordinates of the left twin during the time of the left twin's inertial motion, we have for the right twin:
$$\begin{eqnarray} t' & = & \gamma( t - \frac{v}{c^2} x ) & = & \gamma \left( \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{R}} - \frac{v}{c^2} ( 2 D {\Large \mathbf{+} } \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{R}} ) \right) & = & \gamma^2 ( 1 - \frac{v^2}{c^2} ) \tau_{\mathrm{R}} - \frac{2 \gamma v}{c^2} D & = & \tau_{\mathrm{R}} - \frac{2 \gamma v}{c^2} D \\ x' & = & \gamma( x - v t ) & = & \gamma \left( 2 D {\Large \mathbf{+} } \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{R}} - \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{R}}\right) & = & \gamma \left( 2 D \right) & = & 2 \gamma D \end{eqnarray} $$
Thus $$\begin{pmatrix}\Delta t' \\ \Delta x' \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} \tau_{\mathrm{R}} - \frac{2 \gamma v}{c^2} D - \tau_{\mathrm{L}} \\ 2 \gamma D - 0 \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} ( \tau_{\mathrm{R}}- \tau_{\mathrm{L}} ) - \frac{ v}{c^2} ( 2 \gamma D) \\ 2 \gamma D \end{pmatrix}$$, and $$\Delta t' = 0$$ forces $$\begin{pmatrix}\Delta t' \\ \Delta x' \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} 0 \\ 2 \gamma D \end{pmatrix}$$, which is a space-time displacement that is purely spatial. And the ruler which is moving at speed $$v$$ is shorter than the same ruler in a coordinate system where it is at rest by a factor of $$\frac{ \left. \Delta x \right|_{\tiny \Delta t = 0 } }{ \left. \Delta x' \right|_{\tiny \Delta t' = 0 } } = \frac{ 2 D }{ 2 \gamma D } = \gamma^{\tiny -1} = \sqrt{1 - \frac{v^2}{c^2}} \leq 1$$.

However, $$\Delta t' = 0$$ forces $$ \tau_{\mathrm{R}}- \tau_{\mathrm{L}} = \frac{ v}{c^2} ( 2 \gamma D)$$ which for the same space-time interval forces $$\begin{pmatrix}\Delta t \\ \Delta x \end{pmatrix}_{\tiny \Delta t' = 0 } = \begin{pmatrix} \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{R}} - \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{L}} \\ 2 D \, {\Large \mathbf{+} }\, \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{R}} - \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{L}} \end{pmatrix}_{\tiny \Delta t' = 0 } = \begin{pmatrix} \frac{2 \gamma^2 v}{c^2} D \\ 2 \left( 1 + \frac{\gamma^2 v^2}{c^2} \right) D \end{pmatrix}_{\tiny \Delta t' = 0 }$$,
and $$ \left( c \Delta t \right)^2 - \left( \Delta x \right)^2 \; = \; \left( \frac{2 \gamma^2 v}{c} D \right)^2 - \left( 2 \left( 1 + \frac{\gamma^2 v^2}{c^2} \right) D \right)^2 \; = \; 4 D^2 \left( \gamma^4 \frac{v^2}{c^2} - 1 - 2 \gamma^2 \frac{ v^2}{c^2} - \gamma^4 \frac{ v^4}{c^4} \right) \; = \; 4 D^2 \left( - 1 - \gamma^2 \frac{ v^2}{c^2} \right) \; = \; - 4 \gamma^2 D^2 \; = \; \left( c \Delta t' \right)^2 - \left( \Delta x' \right)^2 $$


But further, I think the starting point in your development is wrong.
I think wrong goes too far.
You should have started with a Lorentz transform with the gamma $$\tilde{\gamma}$$ in both equations (that's the gamma between the travelling twins) and after make the substitutions and simplifications you judge necessary. If not you are just repeating the same transform with the same parameters just expressed in other way.
I think you are confusing application of the same transform on different coordinate pairs with the case that the coordinate pairs are equal, which was not prysk's intention. The calculation of $$\tilde{\gamma}$$ doesn't make sense until the reader has mastered the use of the Lorentz coordinates to master transformations of coordinates of events, differences of coordinates of events and equations of worldlines.

I think it is important to think about world-lines. One world-line is L, the other world-line is R.
So I would start with: $$x_{\mathrm{L}} = v t_{\mathrm{L}} $$ which is a description of inertial motion.
Then introduce a particular parameterization of the line's t-coordinate: $$t_{\mathrm{L}} ( \tau_{\mathrm{L}} ) = \gamma \tau_{\mathrm{L}}$$
which leads to $$x_{\mathrm{L}} ( \tau_{\mathrm{L}} ) = \gamma v \tau_{\mathrm{L}}$$. So now the line in space time is a parametrized set of coordinate pairs in space-time.
Then introduce a particular Lorentz transform (based on v) as a transform of all coordinates of all events in space-time: $$t' = \gamma ( t - \frac{v}{c^2} x ) , \quad x' = \gamma ( x - v t ) $$
Which leads to: $$t'_{\mathrm{L}} ( \tau_{\mathrm{L}} ) = \tau_{\mathrm{L}} , \quad x'_{\mathrm{L}} ( \tau_{\mathrm{L}} ) = 0$$
Which leads to $$x'_{\mathrm{L}} = 0 \times t'_{\mathrm{L}}$$ which is a description of inertial motion.

This would emphasize that the Lorentz transform in this case transforms inertial motion to inertial motion, but otherwise closely follows prysk's development. prysk seems to have assumed that you didn't need all the subscripts spelled out.

The right procedure is to start considering a new pair of frames (K.K') with the appropiated parameters (like the proper gamma) each time we will consider the Lorentz transform for a different observer. Don't you think this is the right approach?
I don't see why he would attempt that until he was sure his readers had mastered analytic geometry in 3+1 flat space-time.
 
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If you mean GPS satelittes system I think it could not bring too much about the validity of Relativity because in spite of the probable relativistic treatment of timing in them as an engineer I'm quite sure the engineers should have added a continuos correction in the synchronization of the clocks of the sattelites with some clock at Earth ground to prevent many type of errors or disturbances in the electronics of them like thermal noise, signals interference, etc. So the relativistic timing formulation in the satellites would be "masked" by the synchronization's correction control. Am I wrong?

Yes, you're wrong!

Because an observer on the ground sees the satellites in motion relative to them, Special Relativity predicts that we should see their clocks ticking more slowly (see the Special Relativity lecture). Special Relativity predicts that the on-board atomic clocks on the satellites should fall behind clocks on the ground by about 7 microseconds per day because of the slower ticking rate due to the time dilation effect of their relative motion.

Further, the satellites are in orbits high above the Earth, where the curvature of spacetime due to the Earth's mass is less than it is at the Earth's surface. A prediction of General Relativity is that clocks closer to a massive object will seem to tick more slowly than those located further away (see the Black Holes lecture). As such, when viewed from the surface of the Earth, the clocks on the satellites appear to be ticking faster than identical clocks on the ground. A calculation using General Relativity predicts that the clocks in each GPS satellite should get ahead of ground-based clocks by 45 microseconds per day.

The combination of these two relativitic effects means that the clocks on-board each satellite should tick faster than identical clocks on the ground by about 38 microseconds per day (45-7=38)! This sounds small, but the high-precision required of the GPS system requires nanosecond accuracy, and 38 microseconds is 38,000 nanoseconds. If these effects were not properly taken into account, a navigational fix based on the GPS constellation would be false after only 2 minutes, and errors in global positions would continue to accumulate at a rate of about 10 kilometers each day! The whole system would be utterly worthless for navigation in a very short time. This kind of accumulated error is akin to measuring my location while standing on my front porch in Columbus, Ohio one day, and then making the same measurement a week later and having my GPS receiver tell me that my porch and I are currently about 5000 meters in the air somewhere over Detroit.



http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html

Quod Erat Demonstratum!

¿Qué piensas, Martillo?
 
¿Qué piensas, Martillo?
Continue thinking the same because relativistic effects are not the unique possible source for variations in the sattelites' clocks timing. Many other things could affect them and so a very precise and powerful synchronization control based in ground clocks is needed to account to all of them. So the fact that GPS system works well cannot be taken as a real evidence for the validity of Relativity Theory.
 
Continue thinking the same because relativistic effects are not the unique possible source for variations in the sattelites' clocks timing. Many other things could affect them and so a very precise and powerful synchronization control based in ground clocks is needed to account to all of them. So the fact that GPS system works well cannot be taken as a real evidence for the validity of Relativity Theory.
Isn't that specious reasoning that flies in the face of the scientific method? One theory (GR) explains detailed astronomical observations, like the loss of momentum from binary neutron stars, advance of the perihelion of Mercury, a difference about the Moon's motion that Newton himself observed and could not explain, Shapiro delay, gravitational lensing, a coherent cosmology which is constrained to a single set of matter-energy distribution densities at the part-per-thousand level, all other aspects of gravity, time dilation, momentum-velocity relationships for all observed particles, the color of gold and the ability to find your way home -- and you quibble that one of these phenomena might be explained by some other unspecified cause which would require that you also postulate reasons for all the other phenomena to be consistent.

This is like having a 8 photographs taken by strangers in all states of lighting of a grandfather clock and a bowl of fruit with a orange, apple and banana in roughly the same position in various states of decay and saying there may be "other reasons" than the grandfather clock being stopped in that the photos all having the hands in the same position. You are left with hand waving (martillo) or outright conspiracy theories (Masterov) to explain by other means what the parsimonious hypothesis easily explains.
 
Yes, you're wrong!

Because an observer on the ground sees the satellites in motion relative to them, Special Relativity predicts that we should see their clocks ticking more slowly (see the Special Relativity lecture). Special Relativity predicts that the on-board atomic clocks on the satellites should fall behind clocks on the ground by about 7 microseconds per day because of the slower ticking rate due to the time dilation effect of their relative motion.

Further, the satellites are in orbits high above the Earth, where the curvature of spacetime due to the Earth's mass is less than it is at the Earth's surface. A prediction of General Relativity is that clocks closer to a massive object will seem to tick more slowly than those located further away (see the Black Holes lecture). As such, when viewed from the surface of the Earth, the clocks on the satellites appear to be ticking faster than identical clocks on the ground. A calculation using General Relativity predicts that the clocks in each GPS satellite should get ahead of ground-based clocks by 45 microseconds per day.

The combination of these two relativitic effects means that the clocks on-board each satellite should tick faster than identical clocks on the ground by about 38 microseconds per day (45-7=38)! This sounds small, but the high-precision required of the GPS system requires nanosecond accuracy, and 38 microseconds is 38,000 nanoseconds. If these effects were not properly taken into account, a navigational fix based on the GPS constellation would be false after only 2 minutes, and errors in global positions would continue to accumulate at a rate of about 10 kilometers each day! The whole system would be utterly worthless for navigation in a very short time. This kind of accumulated error is akin to measuring my location while standing on my front porch in Columbus, Ohio one day, and then making the same measurement a week later and having my GPS receiver tell me that my porch and I are currently about 5000 meters in the air somewhere over Detroit.



http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html

Quod Erat Demonstratum!

¿Qué piensas, Martillo?

While this is all accurate, it was only of any significance during the first several days or so the first sattelite was in orbit. After that the onboard clock rates were adjusted, eliminating any further relativistic tests.

Martillo was right, as far as any ongoing usefullness for relativistic time dilation experiments. Essentially engineering measures were and are built in to compensate for the time dilations. But he is wrong in that during those first several days, confirmation of the time dilations predicted for both GR and SR effects were confirmed.., consistent with your above post.
 
Continue thinking the same because relativistic effects are not the unique possible source for variations in the sattelites' clocks timing.
But it is unique. The frequency shift is an exact amount. The frequency shift occurs when they reach orbit. Before launch, they oscillate at earth time. After launch, they oscillate at the rate predicted by relativity. How is that not conclusive?

Many other things could affect them and so a very precise and powerful synchronization control based in ground clocks is needed to account to all of them.
This is different than synchronization. In synchronization, there is drift. This is not drift. In synchronization, the drifting circuit will be adjusted, by an adaptive feedback of some kind (e.g., Kalman filter, phaselock loop, or a simple reset). That's not related to this. In this case, all 24 satellites are in sync with each other, and in sync with their local reference frame. However, they are all oscillating at a different rate than they did on the ground, and the amount of shift is the same amount as the time dilation due to the combined effects of SR and GR.
So the fact that GPS system works well cannot be taken as a real evidence for the validity of Relativity Theory.
You may have missed the point about accuracy. Signals propagate at 1m/ns. In order for you to map yourself within, say, 10 to 20 m of your true position, it means the system accuracy is within 10-20 ns. This is a high precision for a system that is under 38 μs of time dilation across reference frames. It says we have 4 to 5 digits of precision in the results every time we map ourselves. And that says the system matches the predicted SR/GR effects by 4 to 5 digits of precision. All 24 SATs (4 per constellation) are behaving relativistically within 4 to 5 digits of precision. If the design was flawed, the GPS set would put you far, far away from your true position. It would drift over time, moving you farther and farther away from your true position.

The fact that it works well means that the correction for SR-GR is very good, and is very uniform around the planet (except for the fact the Earth is not a perfect sphere - this has other issues and solutions). The fact that GPS works well means that the calculated values for time dilation due to SR/GR are accurate, and they are consistent with the observed phenomena (a frequency shift upon reaching orbit).

Quod erat demonstratum: that the precision of a GPD mapping device proves that SR/GR are correct
 
While this is all accurate, it was only of any significance during the first several days or so the first sattelite was in orbit. After that the onboard clock rates were adjusted, eliminating any further relativistic tests.
I'm using "test" in a different sense - in the sense that each time he maps himself, he is reaffirming that the relativity correction is working - therefore relativity is proven. (Not that we're still testing for the amount of dilation.)

Martillo was right, as far as any ongoing usefullness for relativistic time dilation experiments. Essentially engineering measures were and are built in to compensate for the time dilations. But he is wrong in that during those first several days, confirmation of the time dilations predicted for both GR and SR effects were confirmed.., consistent with your above post.
I wasn't addressing usefulness of measuring the scale of dilation, if that's your point. I am trying to see if Martillo understands the implications, that every time he geolocates himself, he is reaffirming that the relativistic corrections are still valid. There is no correspondence between the way the correction is done - or the cause for doing it - and any systemic error such as noise or clock drift. (At least not as far as the relativity correction itself.) If he crosses this bridge he may begin to open his mind to the validity of the other proofs and explanations given to him so far.

The geolocation problem using time difference of arrival is interesting in itself, especially in establishing the implications of his misunderstanding, because TDOA has a highly nonlinear sensitivity function, based on the arbitrary positions of the SATs in the constellation at the moment you take a fix on your location. It turns out the solution is the LAT/LON/ALT that corresponds to the intersection of three hyperbolas of rotation - with you at one of the foci of each. When you consider how many ways these hyperbolas can be oriented, and the way position error grows with each hyperbola shifted by an amount corresponding to the uncorrected relativity, the fact of his precise location is a remarkable way for him to discover how nothing but dilation can possibly cause the specific correction employed. The uniformly accurate readings he gets, even under very severe cases of sensitivity to error, establishes that the dilation is stable and universal (except, as I mentioned, there are local datum corrections to coordinates that deviate from the spherical earth model).

I wonder if martillo will understand the subtle nature of this truth. It would apparently be a breakthrough for him to comprehend it, since he's convinced himself something else other than relativity is going on.
 
Yeah...SR time dilation in a medium.
Yeah...SR time dilation without needing the second postulate.
 
As you said that's what Relativity Theory predicts but what if Relativity is wrong? I know is difficult to you to consider this...
In a totally perfect symmetrical travel both twins and their clocks are affected by exactly the same physical effects and so must exhibit exactly the same look, behavior and readings. The nature of the problem demands that. How many times would I repeat this? How can't you understand the point? I don't know how would I explain it better to you.
przyk will not understand what you mean by symmetric - he will always come back to the fact that simultaneity is frame dependent so that the traveling twins, on acceleration, never know what time it is with the other twin.

You could tell it to him that the two twins do a predetermined symmetric travel, not just a 'symmetric' travel, away and then towards each other. "Predetermined" means each rely on their own clock (proper time) to decide how long to accelerate or decelerate and at what rate, etc.

So the time accumulated by both the twin's clocks during the non-uniform phase will be the same because of symmetry. What is left is to apply the Emil time dilation (not yet fully accepted here) during the uniform motion phase away and back to calculate the total accumulated time on the two clocks. The correct way is not to use mathematical calculations for an answer to "what is the value of 12 x 12 ?" - unless, of course, you want a non-commonsense counter-intuitive dilated figure of 139!

If even this does not do the trick, then drop the topic.

Chan Rasjid.
 
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