Eflex tha Vybe Scientist
Registered Senior Member
sorry, didnt see your post
Mammals going back to the water evolve bigger brains- why?
- Thread starter Dr Lou Natic
- Start date
sorry, didnt see your post
Tooling making and weapons to hunt with could have been a driving force for increasing brain size. Also don't forget how much language affected brain size. Animals with complex social structures are usually more intelligent (or is it that their social structures are complex because they are more intelligent?)
I am inclined to think that would almost certainly be the case.
Penguins are birds
The transition from flying to swimming isn't a very drastic one. Look at cormorants and other diving sea birds. I would think penguin ancestors would have been similar to them.
As for seals... hmm, they might be a problem.
But it could just be different strokes for different folks. Dog lifestyles are centered around the pack. Humans lived in packs but the individual has always been the priority to the individual.
Dogs, on the other hand, establish rank and once they know who's boss they live and die for them. From instinctually helping each other increased intelligence may not have been vital.
I don't know, again seals are a different animal that had a well established order to their lifestyles when they started. Humans whales and bears seem to be more mentally and instinctually adaptable.
Polar bears are interesting and what got me thinking about this. They are relatively new to marine life and their intelligence is thought to be the equivalent of apes.
They are not pack animals so "survival of the fittest" holds very true for them.
When you think about what lengths a polar bear has to go to to get lunch and make a living you can see how only the more intelligent members would live long enough to breed. Thus making the species more intelligent over the generations.
How? how can you tell which is cause and which is effect?
I think I can.
I don't see how how complex social structures would come about without intelligence(in mammals).
And I definately can't see how they would make a species evolve more intelligence.
I am trying to explain increased intelligence by saying trying times mean only intelligent individuals get to breed.
What breeding restrictions to complex social structures put on a species? They seem(at least ours does) to take away any restrictions. Meaning anyone can breed. Unless ONLY intelligent members are getting to breed I don't see why a species would get more intelligent.
Therefore I think we got our intelligence BEFORE we had complex social structures.
I don't see how how complex social structures would come about without intelligence(in mammals).
And I definately can't see how they would make a species evolve more intelligence.
I am trying to explain increased intelligence by saying trying times mean only intelligent individuals get to breed.
What breeding restrictions to complex social structures put on a species? They seem(at least ours does) to take away any restrictions. Meaning anyone can breed. Unless ONLY intelligent members are getting to breed I don't see why a species would get more intelligent.
Therefore I think we got our intelligence BEFORE we had complex social structures.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
Adaptation to a 3-D Universe
It's been suggested that animals that function successfully in a three dimensional milieu end up with more intelligence than those that live in two dimensions.
Arboreal rodents, clambering along trunks and branches.
Primates, swinging through the trees.
Birds, flying through the air.
Otters, hunting in rivers, and polar bears, hunting in the sea.
Pinnipeds, spending most of their non-sleeping hours in water, and sea otters, who rarely climb out of the water.
Finally, the cetaceans, who can't leave the water.
With each step the animal spends more time living and making decisions in three dimensions. In general, although nature is never perfect in its consistency, the animals at each step are more intelligent than their predecessors. Some birds, in particular, don't seem very bright, yet on the balance most species seem to be a bit smarter than a terrestrial animal in the same ecological niche.
Human sculptors, who have to envision their completed work of art in three dimensions when they're staring at a block of stone, are acknowledged by their colleagues who work on canvas, as having a much different way of perceiving and interacting with the world. Perhaps this is a small step in the same direction.
When humans finally have a chance to adapt to life in free fall on space stations or generation starships, we may see another major jump in intelligence.
I'm deliberately talking about intelligence instead of brain size. A lot of brain cells are dedicated to motor coordination. Whales, I would think, have nowhere near the number of distinct muscles that we do, so perhaps their brains don't need to be proprotionately as large as ours in order to match our IQ.
Last, for what it's worth, dogs have slightly smaller brains than wolves because they've spent 12,000 years adapting to a lower protein diet. Brain cells require a lot of protein.
There's an entire thread about a zillion pages long on the Aquatic Ape Theory, by the way. A lot of fascinating stuff, much of which is being duplicated here.
It's been suggested that animals that function successfully in a three dimensional milieu end up with more intelligence than those that live in two dimensions.
Arboreal rodents, clambering along trunks and branches.
Primates, swinging through the trees.
Birds, flying through the air.
Otters, hunting in rivers, and polar bears, hunting in the sea.
Pinnipeds, spending most of their non-sleeping hours in water, and sea otters, who rarely climb out of the water.
Finally, the cetaceans, who can't leave the water.
With each step the animal spends more time living and making decisions in three dimensions. In general, although nature is never perfect in its consistency, the animals at each step are more intelligent than their predecessors. Some birds, in particular, don't seem very bright, yet on the balance most species seem to be a bit smarter than a terrestrial animal in the same ecological niche.
Human sculptors, who have to envision their completed work of art in three dimensions when they're staring at a block of stone, are acknowledged by their colleagues who work on canvas, as having a much different way of perceiving and interacting with the world. Perhaps this is a small step in the same direction.
When humans finally have a chance to adapt to life in free fall on space stations or generation starships, we may see another major jump in intelligence.
I'm deliberately talking about intelligence instead of brain size. A lot of brain cells are dedicated to motor coordination. Whales, I would think, have nowhere near the number of distinct muscles that we do, so perhaps their brains don't need to be proprotionately as large as ours in order to match our IQ.
Last, for what it's worth, dogs have slightly smaller brains than wolves because they've spent 12,000 years adapting to a lower protein diet. Brain cells require a lot of protein.
There's an entire thread about a zillion pages long on the Aquatic Ape Theory, by the way. A lot of fascinating stuff, much of which is being duplicated here.
Excellent post FR.
You have answered some of the questions I was asking actually.
I guess it was what I was getting at with the going back to water thing.
Needing to adapt to different environments demands an increase in intelligence. The change increases the brain power and then if the species starts to specialise to its new environment its brain will gradually decrease, making it more efficiently suited to its new lifestyle. Some creatures need to stay adaptable like humans and bears. From what I can gather bears will only keep getting smarter(if we don't render them extinct)
Although I can't see humans naturally evolving more intelligence moving to space. Unless you are insinuating an individuals intelligence will increase within his own life time and pass that intelligence on.
Because the complex society we have won't be lost by our move to space. We will still be looking after eachother and the intelligent members of our species won't let the less intelligent members die due to their inadequacies in the art of survival. Understandable but, it means naturally we will stay at a stand still when it comes to physical brain power. The bear is still living by a system that makes sure only the skilled members survive. Skilled for a bear requires alot of intelligence(as well as strength, stamina etc). So it seems clear that bears are heading on up in the intelligence department while humans are stuck where they are.
But of course, we are not stuck because our genetic engineering abilities mean we can make ourselves smarter eventually by using our own techniques.
Just as well. We wouldn't want bears getting smarter than us
Funny how things work out
You have answered some of the questions I was asking actually.
I guess it was what I was getting at with the going back to water thing.
Needing to adapt to different environments demands an increase in intelligence. The change increases the brain power and then if the species starts to specialise to its new environment its brain will gradually decrease, making it more efficiently suited to its new lifestyle. Some creatures need to stay adaptable like humans and bears. From what I can gather bears will only keep getting smarter(if we don't render them extinct)
Although I can't see humans naturally evolving more intelligence moving to space. Unless you are insinuating an individuals intelligence will increase within his own life time and pass that intelligence on.
Because the complex society we have won't be lost by our move to space. We will still be looking after eachother and the intelligent members of our species won't let the less intelligent members die due to their inadequacies in the art of survival. Understandable but, it means naturally we will stay at a stand still when it comes to physical brain power. The bear is still living by a system that makes sure only the skilled members survive. Skilled for a bear requires alot of intelligence(as well as strength, stamina etc). So it seems clear that bears are heading on up in the intelligence department while humans are stuck where they are.
But of course, we are not stuck because our genetic engineering abilities mean we can make ourselves smarter eventually by using our own techniques.
Just as well. We wouldn't want bears getting smarter than us
Funny how things work out
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
Three Dimensions; Two Species
Because what we value most in each other is our minds, we go to great lengths to make life liveable for the disabled. E.g., making wheelchair ramps ubiquitous despite the fact that they turned our cities into frightening, gigantic skateboard racetracks. I wonder if we will be so charitable when the disability is mental. I'm proud that my employer hires, umm, "special" people to push the mail carts and perform other tasks within their abilities. But, as you illustrate:
A very few stumbled into a working relationship with humans and helped us evolve a behavior that sets us apart from all other animals: the ability to form multi-species communities. Dogs, with their quick feet, keen noses, and selfless willingness to fight off the most fearsome predators, happily merging with a species that brings down enormous prey, builds campfires, and leaves its females to guard the young of both species while everyone else goes off to hunt. Cats, who love to eat them mousies, given the red carpet by humans who had just invented granaries and had a serious rodent problem.
All of the camp followers overcame their wariness of each other, which quickly led to inter-species dating. Wolf-coyote hybrids sprang up in North America. As did hybrids of the eastern Rose-Breasted and western Black-Headed grosbeaks where their ranges overlapped in the luscious Midwestern orchards. Cross-bred macaws with psychedelic plumage rummage through the dumpsters behind the Iguassu Falls McDonalds. (God I hope there isn't really one there, but you get the idea.)
The animals are breeding for the survival trait of willingness to live in proximity to humanity! Even to the extent of obliterating species boundaries! The subtle difference in feeding habits between the Blue & Gold macaw and the Scarlet macaw in the wild (slightly different beak size and shape, resulting in specialization on different nuts and seeds) means nothing when the most important survival skill is getting the lid off a trash can and once you get inside all you need to do is separate the hamburger from the styrofoam. Civilization has the second-order effect of increasing the intelligence of non-humans. Not to mention scrambling the gene pools of two species, particularly endangered ones, has got to result in a healthier population.
Of course the problem with a dog who instinctively protects herbivores is that she has no discretion and the deer quickly figure it out. They regard our property as a refuge and eat all our plants.
Not exactly the point I was making. (Although like everything I post here outside my own specialties, it's based entirely on tertiary research, so feel free to refute it.) What the zoologists and psychologists hypothesize is that being able to live successfully in a three dimensional universe requires more intelligence. Once the adaptation is complete, it never reverses, because the need for the higher intelligence is permanent. A dolphin or a falcon simply could not thrive if his spatial relations perception and kinesthetic sense devolved to those of a flatlander.
Humans will probably cling desperately to our two-dimensional worldview by clever use of our technology. Magnetic boots to keep us from floating off the inner surface of a ship or station, or just giving it a permanent spin to create a bit of gravity. But there will always be the adventurous young people who throw off their boots or go off to play in the non-rotating part of the vessel. If selective breeding kicks in (what "floater" would want to marry a "crawler"?), a distinct gene pool may arise of humans with a 3-D worldview.
We have certainly halted the process of natural selection of characteristics that we no longer regard as survival traits in the civilization we have built. Multiplegic geniuses like Stephen Hawking are revered, I'm sure his sperm is in a bank somewhere and in high demand.
Because what we value most in each other is our minds, we go to great lengths to make life liveable for the disabled. E.g., making wheelchair ramps ubiquitous despite the fact that they turned our cities into frightening, gigantic skateboard racetracks. I wonder if we will be so charitable when the disability is mental. I'm proud that my employer hires, umm, "special" people to push the mail carts and perform other tasks within their abilities. But, as you illustrate:
... the eugenics movement is not dead and there are those who say we are holding our species back by not aiming for a higher average IQ. And I don't mean to imply that you are a member of that movement, Doctor Lou. You're just diligently reporting what a lot of people think. This is a politically charged argument that many of us will quietly back out of!
A phenomenon you haven't identified is the "camp follower." Individuals of any species whose curiosity and desire for an easy life overcome their fear of the unfamiliar, who take up life on the fringe of human settlements. Most of them are scavengers or at least have a metabolism that can adapt to scavenging: canines, bears, raccoons, hyenas, zillions of rodent species, almost all psittacines (the parrot order), pigeons, crows/jays. Others are herbivores who develop a taste for our farm produce or ornamental plants: deer, another zillion rodent species, a whole lotta birds. Others are predators who would rather take their chances picking off our livestock and pets than go chasing after a faster and more alert wild victim.
A very few stumbled into a working relationship with humans and helped us evolve a behavior that sets us apart from all other animals: the ability to form multi-species communities. Dogs, with their quick feet, keen noses, and selfless willingness to fight off the most fearsome predators, happily merging with a species that brings down enormous prey, builds campfires, and leaves its females to guard the young of both species while everyone else goes off to hunt. Cats, who love to eat them mousies, given the red carpet by humans who had just invented granaries and had a serious rodent problem.
All of the camp followers overcame their wariness of each other, which quickly led to inter-species dating. Wolf-coyote hybrids sprang up in North America. As did hybrids of the eastern Rose-Breasted and western Black-Headed grosbeaks where their ranges overlapped in the luscious Midwestern orchards. Cross-bred macaws with psychedelic plumage rummage through the dumpsters behind the Iguassu Falls McDonalds. (God I hope there isn't really one there, but you get the idea.)
The animals are breeding for the survival trait of willingness to live in proximity to humanity! Even to the extent of obliterating species boundaries! The subtle difference in feeding habits between the Blue & Gold macaw and the Scarlet macaw in the wild (slightly different beak size and shape, resulting in specialization on different nuts and seeds) means nothing when the most important survival skill is getting the lid off a trash can and once you get inside all you need to do is separate the hamburger from the styrofoam. Civilization has the second-order effect of increasing the intelligence of non-humans. Not to mention scrambling the gene pools of two species, particularly endangered ones, has got to result in a healthier population.
We live on the fringe of the redwood forest. Almost every one of our neighbors has, in fact, had a bear break into their pantry despite using every trick they could find in the hardware store to keep them out. Only we have solved the problem, and the way we did it is worth noting. We have a hundred-pound Anatolian Guardian dog, a breed developed 4,000 years ago to protect livestock from anything up to and including lions. The bears give our property a wide birth, as do the mountain lions, foxes and bobcats that also prowl the region. A multi-species community: still the solution to a lot of problems. Combine the intelligence and other skills of two species and we are unstoppable.
Of course the problem with a dog who instinctively protects herbivores is that she has no discretion and the deer quickly figure it out. They regard our property as a refuge and eat all our plants.
Indeed!Funny how things work out
Dear god if bears got smart they would most likely start talking, were green neck ties and green hats, and most of all picnic baskets across the nation would no longer be safe!!!
i can't either...
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river-wind
Valued Senior Member
don't forget about efficiency. Brain size is only a part of intelligence- the effective use of available brain tissue is possibly more important than brain size. Remember that Neandertal man had a larger brain than modern humans, though I doubt many would argue neandertal's superior intelligence to today's humans. (though there were some kids in HS I wonder about sometimes....)
Neanderthals were in some ways smarter than homo sapiens. They had a very autistic(is that the word?) way of using their brains though. They could focus on a task and do it extremely well. They made stones knives as sharp as todays scalpels and excelled in any sort of thing like that.
Homo-sapiens have a more diverse intelligence. They outsmarted the neanderthals in battles and hunting competition everytime and eventually rendered them extinct.
Its funny these are 2 extremely closely related species and we know how different their brains worked. We can only imagine what a whales thought process is like.
FR,
I think I understand what you mean by "3D environment" now, I was a bit slow on the uptake. So air, water, trees etc. Places you can go up and down and side to side.
Yes I can see how that might over time increase a species intelligence. I think that adds credibility to the aquatic ape theory. Think about it, we got a boost in the brain department from our very old ancestors that climbed in trees, then as they came down from the trees they got another boost from somewhere else, the water. They started swimming to gather crabs and lobsters.
I also think that once they adapted to the water it would have been difficult when elnino struck and tough times would have weeded out the less intellectually gifted members.
Ps: Anatolian shepard huh? cool. But now you need a hunting dog to chase out the deer as well. Or would that piss the anatolian off?
I have to pity the bears because those deer are rightfully theirs in a sense.
I plan on getting a 250lbs Neapolitan mastiff when I get my own house.
Not for bears, we don't get bears, Neo Mastiff's are the best for chasing off people, or should I say killing them
Homo-sapiens have a more diverse intelligence. They outsmarted the neanderthals in battles and hunting competition everytime and eventually rendered them extinct.
Its funny these are 2 extremely closely related species and we know how different their brains worked. We can only imagine what a whales thought process is like.
FR,
I think I understand what you mean by "3D environment" now, I was a bit slow on the uptake. So air, water, trees etc. Places you can go up and down and side to side.
Yes I can see how that might over time increase a species intelligence. I think that adds credibility to the aquatic ape theory. Think about it, we got a boost in the brain department from our very old ancestors that climbed in trees, then as they came down from the trees they got another boost from somewhere else, the water. They started swimming to gather crabs and lobsters.
I also think that once they adapted to the water it would have been difficult when elnino struck and tough times would have weeded out the less intellectually gifted members.
Ps: Anatolian shepard huh? cool. But now you need a hunting dog to chase out the deer as well. Or would that piss the anatolian off?
I have to pity the bears because those deer are rightfully theirs in a sense.
I plan on getting a 250lbs Neapolitan mastiff when I get my own house.
Not for bears, we don't get bears, Neo Mastiff's are the best for chasing off people, or should I say killing them
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
Neanderthals and Anatolians
If you've been following Attenborough's Life of Mammals, the close correlation between brain size and tribe size is fascinating. Hand a skull to a primatologist and he'll say I need to get a book and my glasses to tell you the species, but I can tell you from the size of the brain pan that he lived in groups of about 75.
Their brains didn't have a speech center. That probably made a huge difference in their ability to evolve as a community instead of just individuals; to pass complex and abstract knowledge on to their progeny, etc. Not to dispute Jean Auel who hypothesizes that they simply developed sign language; gorillas and chimps are becoming quite fluent in it so why not? Alternately, lacking the same vocal organs we have, they could still have evolved a vocal language based entirely on tone, sort of Chinese run rampant, what the cetaceans may have in a few million more years.
If you've been following Attenborough's Life of Mammals, the close correlation between brain size and tribe size is fascinating. Hand a skull to a primatologist and he'll say I need to get a book and my glasses to tell you the species, but I can tell you from the size of the brain pan that he lived in groups of about 75.
I am so eager to see the research develop in chimps and gorillas who use ASL. They even teach it to their offspring. We've been exercising our unique ability to form multi-species communities since we allied with the dog 12,000 years ago, but this is the first time we've come even close to being able to really "communicate" with another species. This is surely a Heisenberg scenario, the signing apes undoubtedly think thoughts that their ancestors couldn't have, but it's still a Major Moment in Science that we're privileged to experience.
As I said, there's a zillion-page thread on the aquatic ape theory from a few months ago. An odd thing about SciForums is that very few threads have long lives. They just pop up all over again and a different bunch of people say the same things. A microcosm of the "Those who don't learn from history..." scenario.
They dropped the "shepherd" because they absolutely do not herd. They just join the herd and protect them. The AKC just calls them Anatolians. The UKC and most Americans call them Anatolian Guardians, a more descriptive name.
We don't have quite as much trouble with deer on the West Coast as people do in the East, so there isn't much of a movement yet to consider them pests. We don't mind them. We even get a few elk. Anatolians generally get along well with other dogs. We in fact originally got ours because we breed small dogs and didn't want to become the mountain lions' cafeteria. She plays with them and they sleep together. We also have parrots and she very dutifully scans the sky as well to keep the hawks away. She even runs off seagulls, I guess in her racial memory that hookbill looks too much like a raptor. And no, I don't understand how an Anatolian can recognize a dog as someone to protect but a wolf or coyote as someone to drive off. DNA analysis says we might as well call wolves just one breed of dog: the original.
Not here. They belong to the cougars. Bears are fast but a deer can outrun one easily and they are not sneaky by nature so the deer usually know where they are. Mountain lions are both faster and more stealthy.
Be careful and do your homework. Most of the larger breeds of dogs have been ruined by American breeders, with the full cooperation of the AKC, which as far as I can tell is utterly worthless. Dysplasia, etc. If you can get one from abroad, do it. The dog's infrastructure was never designed to support that much weight. He should have the bones and cartilege of a small lion. One major advantage of the Anatolian (and the Akbash, a similar breed) is that you go back fifteen years and all their ancestors were in Turkey.
Having a dog that's hostile to people is not something we've ever considered. In fact one selling point of a dog that's been bred by Muslims for the last 1,500 years is that they will not tolerate a dog that confronts a human, even an enemy. Unlike the spike-collared monster mutt that could be trained to keep away predators, Anatolians are by instinct unerringly gentle with children, pets and stock.Not for bears, we don't get bears, Neo Mastiff's are the best for chasing off people, or should I say killing them
Neo's are very gentle with their family and will tolerate friends after being eased into the situation. They are intelligent and alot less likely to attack a family member than a collie. Of course it will be a bit more serious if they do. But I think I'm pretty good at raising dogs and thats what its all about regardless of breed. I've only ever had "dangerous dogs" and they've all turned out to be great citizens. Sure a couple have bitten people but thats only on rare occassions when some fool threw rocks at them or hit them with a stick. In those situations I WANT my dog to fight back.
The main thing I look for in dogs is one that can look after itself. I've heard too many stories of dogs being killed by others or getting beaten by people. I tend to get very attached to my dogs so I want one that can really hold its own just in case.
My mother has a small staffordshire bull terrier and although they are tough little things recently as he was being walked past an open gate in the neighbourhood 2 german shepards ran out and attacked him. He didn't get 2 hurt but it scared me and made me think.
Neo's have been bred to be the ultimate guard dogs. They made them black so they could be seen patrolling a roman emporors estate by day but become invisible at night. They also won't make a noise when attacking an intruder and they are one of the very few breeds that have no fear of humans.
I don't want one of these too kill people I want it to defend my house and itself efficiently.
The problem with dogs that overly respect humans is they can be too easily mistreated. I can't have that happening to one of MY dogs.
250lbs was an exagerattion, it can happen but males average between 150 and 200.
Still big, and they are a breed that suffer from hip displaysia so I'll be very careful selecting when I finally have a house and money to get one.
Oh please don't tease me with the life of mammals
You'll never believe what happened in my country, they started playing the series and stopped after 5. For no reason. I've been complaining my ass off at them and I won't rest until they finish the fucking thing. So far its been awesome. Attenborough is my god.
Bears can't outrun deer? I beg to differ, I have amazing footage of it on tape, I wouldn't believe it either if I hadn't seen it myself.
On topic,
I'm not sure communication or group life would physically add to brain power. I think it would make an individual smarter in the way we have as humans but physically we haven't gotten any smarter than our ancestors. We just learned from their mistakes(debatable) and built onto what they knew.
I think for physical changes in brain power to occur a species would have to have its numbers culled drastically by hardship over and over with only intelligent individuals making it through.
That seems(to me) like the only way it could happen.
The main thing I look for in dogs is one that can look after itself. I've heard too many stories of dogs being killed by others or getting beaten by people. I tend to get very attached to my dogs so I want one that can really hold its own just in case.
My mother has a small staffordshire bull terrier and although they are tough little things recently as he was being walked past an open gate in the neighbourhood 2 german shepards ran out and attacked him. He didn't get 2 hurt but it scared me and made me think.
Neo's have been bred to be the ultimate guard dogs. They made them black so they could be seen patrolling a roman emporors estate by day but become invisible at night. They also won't make a noise when attacking an intruder and they are one of the very few breeds that have no fear of humans.
I don't want one of these too kill people I want it to defend my house and itself efficiently.
The problem with dogs that overly respect humans is they can be too easily mistreated. I can't have that happening to one of MY dogs.
250lbs was an exagerattion, it can happen but males average between 150 and 200.
Still big, and they are a breed that suffer from hip displaysia so I'll be very careful selecting when I finally have a house and money to get one.
Oh please don't tease me with the life of mammals
You'll never believe what happened in my country, they started playing the series and stopped after 5. For no reason. I've been complaining my ass off at them and I won't rest until they finish the fucking thing. So far its been awesome. Attenborough is my god.
Bears can't outrun deer? I beg to differ, I have amazing footage of it on tape, I wouldn't believe it either if I hadn't seen it myself.
On topic,
I'm not sure communication or group life would physically add to brain power. I think it would make an individual smarter in the way we have as humans but physically we haven't gotten any smarter than our ancestors. We just learned from their mistakes(debatable) and built onto what they knew.
I think for physical changes in brain power to occur a species would have to have its numbers culled drastically by hardship over and over with only intelligent individuals making it through.
That seems(to me) like the only way it could happen.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
Geeze guy, where do you live? You really need a killer dog to keep your family safe? That's just sad.
Sure, one of the reasons humans and wolves decided to live together in the first place was that the canines were good protectors. But they were supposed to protect us against marauding lions, not other humans!
Our home is rather isolated, on the edge of the forest. The few people who live near enough to barely qualify as "neighbors" include quite a few old established redneck lumberjack families who regard us city folk pretty much as aliens. Yet we still don't feel that any of them would threaten us with bodily harm.
If the sense of community, one of our most basic instincts as primates, has broken down where you live, I hope you have some other good reason for living there!
And somebody's got dogs who will tear into a Staffordshire? That's one tough dog, I wouldn't want to tangle with one. You live in a tough neighborhood, dude!
I do know what you mean about dogs biting. For them it's normal social behavior. Jousting for rank in the pack, or reminding an outsider that he is an outsider. We have to be able to adapt to their rules for "getting along" just as they do to ours. Every now and then our Lhasa Apsos just erupt into a barroom brawl and we end up cleaning blood out of the carpet. Usually the females. The males jump at each other fiercely from opposite sides of a glass door. When we open the door to go out they sit down and start talking about football, then when we close it again they start banging into it again.
We got into Lhasa Apsos in the early 1980s, when the "puppy mills" were cranking them out for a nation that was moving into smaller quarters and needed dogs that were content to sit on the sofa all day watching for burglars. Their inbreeding produced quite a few throwbacks to the Tibetan monastery guard dogs and for a couple of years more Americans were bitten by Lhasa Apsos than any other breed.
Lhasas are like pit bulls, 99 percent of them have the alpha gene, the reverse of the normal proportion. Even the females. They don't understand this "master-pet" thing, we're just really nice roommates who buy all the food and know how to turn on an electric blanket. They make their own decisions about who is trustworthy and who is not, and there is no arguing with them once they've made their mind up. Fortunately they're dead-on accurate and we've learned to trust them. If we find we've got nine overgrown wolverines all straining to bite the toes off of whoever's at the door, whoever it is gets to stay on the other side of the door. The couple of times we didn't abide by their judgment we were really sorry!
But anyway, you say you don't live in the US, where a lot of people worry about being attacked by their fellow citizens and the right to bear arms is sacred. I'm scared to find out where you are that the social order has broken down even worse!
So your Neapolitans aren't much bigger than our Anatolians. In America they run around 120 lb because that's all it takes to run off a mountain lion, bear, wolf, coyote, or the occasional wild boar with an inflated self image. The wily, lazy predators who opt to take up the soft life scavenging on the fringes of civilization are not the brave ones who will engage in a fight with an opponent that's even halfway fairly matched. In Africa they breed them a bit larger, more like 180 lb, and they use them to keep the lions away from their flocks. A 100 percent natural lion repellent that keeps the farmers happy because their livestock attrition rate dropped to zero, and keeps Greenpeace happy because nobody's killing an endangered species!
Sure, one of the reasons humans and wolves decided to live together in the first place was that the canines were good protectors. But they were supposed to protect us against marauding lions, not other humans!
Our home is rather isolated, on the edge of the forest. The few people who live near enough to barely qualify as "neighbors" include quite a few old established redneck lumberjack families who regard us city folk pretty much as aliens. Yet we still don't feel that any of them would threaten us with bodily harm.
If the sense of community, one of our most basic instincts as primates, has broken down where you live, I hope you have some other good reason for living there!
And somebody's got dogs who will tear into a Staffordshire? That's one tough dog, I wouldn't want to tangle with one. You live in a tough neighborhood, dude!
I do know what you mean about dogs biting. For them it's normal social behavior. Jousting for rank in the pack, or reminding an outsider that he is an outsider. We have to be able to adapt to their rules for "getting along" just as they do to ours. Every now and then our Lhasa Apsos just erupt into a barroom brawl and we end up cleaning blood out of the carpet. Usually the females. The males jump at each other fiercely from opposite sides of a glass door. When we open the door to go out they sit down and start talking about football, then when we close it again they start banging into it again.
We got into Lhasa Apsos in the early 1980s, when the "puppy mills" were cranking them out for a nation that was moving into smaller quarters and needed dogs that were content to sit on the sofa all day watching for burglars. Their inbreeding produced quite a few throwbacks to the Tibetan monastery guard dogs and for a couple of years more Americans were bitten by Lhasa Apsos than any other breed.
Lhasas are like pit bulls, 99 percent of them have the alpha gene, the reverse of the normal proportion. Even the females. They don't understand this "master-pet" thing, we're just really nice roommates who buy all the food and know how to turn on an electric blanket. They make their own decisions about who is trustworthy and who is not, and there is no arguing with them once they've made their mind up. Fortunately they're dead-on accurate and we've learned to trust them. If we find we've got nine overgrown wolverines all straining to bite the toes off of whoever's at the door, whoever it is gets to stay on the other side of the door. The couple of times we didn't abide by their judgment we were really sorry!
But anyway, you say you don't live in the US, where a lot of people worry about being attacked by their fellow citizens and the right to bear arms is sacred. I'm scared to find out where you are that the social order has broken down even worse!
So your Neapolitans aren't much bigger than our Anatolians. In America they run around 120 lb because that's all it takes to run off a mountain lion, bear, wolf, coyote, or the occasional wild boar with an inflated self image. The wily, lazy predators who opt to take up the soft life scavenging on the fringes of civilization are not the brave ones who will engage in a fight with an opponent that's even halfway fairly matched. In Africa they breed them a bit larger, more like 180 lb, and they use them to keep the lions away from their flocks. A 100 percent natural lion repellent that keeps the farmers happy because their livestock attrition rate dropped to zero, and keeps Greenpeace happy because nobody's killing an endangered species!