Love me or die!

Carcano

Carcano

Valued Senior Member
The arguments against atheists generally fall into two categories:

1. If atheists do not believe in an ethical deity they cannot possibly have any ethics of their own.

2. Atheists are unable to prove the absence of God and therefore have no better case for atheism than theism.

The Atheists usually respond by affirming the Abrahamic deity as the embodiment of unethical values.

For example, if parents were to tell their children...'you must love and honour me, otherwise I will torture you with fire for the rest of your life'...this would be considered psychopathic.

And yet, this precisely describes the disposition of God....at least among Christians and Muslims. For Jews (who dont always believe in hell) the slogan is simplified merely to 'worship me or die.'

I realize this is a highly condensed overview...but my question is, how do think this debate will play out over the coming few decades with the continuing polarization between growing fundamentalism and popular atheism.
 
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Very well summarized Carcano. I will note that Jews in fact do not believe in a form of hell, like that of the Christians and Muslims. But to the topic, to be quite blunt I feel that this debate will be kept in limbo (no pun intended) for the exact reason you stated above, "Atheists are unable to prove the absence of God and therefore have no better case for atheism than theism." So until there is some truth that reveals itself in the near future we will be stuck with two camps of thought. And to say one thing concerning the requests or more like commands of God, what is written in the Bible is not to be taken at face value but instead analyzed and searched through for a "deeper" meaning between the lines. After all I believe that it was written by humans, and we know how complex we are. And this is not necessarily to say that it was not inspired by God, if it was, than that makes it all the more complex.
 
Carcano said:
The arguments against atheists generally fall into two categories:

1. If atheists do not believe in an ethical deity they cannot possibly have any ethics of their own.

2. Atheists are unable to prove the absence of God and therefore have no better case for atheism than theism.
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Whose arguments against atheism are this? And why should they be considered the most relevant ones?
 
greenberg said:
Whose arguments against atheism are this? And why should they be considered the most relevant ones?
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I believe Carcano is merely putting forth two of the most argued points relating to atheism. And if you believe there to be more relevant ones, please do share add to the topic.
 
greenberg said:
Whose arguments against atheism are this?
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Theyre the ones I hear most often...sometimes in person or online.

A Mormon for example once told me..."so, you just do what you want huh?"

Me: "Sure, dont you?"

Mormon: "Not if its against the will of God."

Me: "Does that mean your will and God's will are different?"
 
I think atheists are doing themselves a disservice by focusing so much on the Abrahamic religions and their arguments.
I am not sure if this disservice is inevitable, though.

If the atheist/theist debate would be taking place somewhere in Asia, surely it would look quite different than it does here in the West.
 
greenberg said:
If the atheist/theist debate would be taking place somewhere in Asia, surely it would look quite different than it does here in the West.
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I cant see much of a debate happening in Buddhist Asia...with no creator deity in its mythos.

We're more likely to find debates about whether 'spirit' is real or imaginary.
 
Carcano said:
I realize this is a highly condensed overview...but my question is, how do think this debate will play out over the coming few decades with the continuing polarization between growing fundamentalism and popular atheism.
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If you examine the history of religion you tend to find that it swings between fundamentalism which eventually gets too rigid which then gives rise to a sort of more liberal version. Then the liberalism gets a bit wishy washy which again establishes a type of fundamentalism. And like this, the practice of religiousity at large tends to swing back and forth.
 
Carcano said:
The most famous case of that would have to be Emanuel Swedenborg's Arcana Coelestia...a multi-volume exposition of the bible as spiritual allegory:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcana_Coelestia
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This is true, there are many others such as Rashi and Maimonides that have done similar things. But what I was referring to was on a more personal level. That we ourselves should take the words of the Bible and make them apply and help us in life.

A story I once heard to explain this went as follows: A king called upon two of his servants to come to him. Upon entering the room the king presented each servant with a pile of flax seeds and a spool of linen. The next day he called upon his two servants again, and when they came he asked each of them what they had done with the flax seeds and linen he gave them. The first servant did nothing with them, explaining that he was not told to do so. The second servant on the other hand presented to the king a loaf of bread and piece of linen cloth to cover the bread.

This story is a metaphor, with the king being God and the servants being us (human beings). We must essentially take the raw materials of flax seeds and linen (the Bible) and cultivate them (find meaning in the Bible).

Now whether I believe the Bible to be written by God or not is not the point I am making. For the sake of argument I am simply saying that we got to think. We were giving brains, let's use them :D
 
Carcano said:
The arguments against atheists generally fall into two categories:

1. If atheists do not believe in an ethical deity they cannot possibly have any ethics of their own.

2. Atheists are unable to prove the absence of God and therefore have no better case for atheism than theism.

The Atheists usually respond by affirming the Abrahamic deity as the embodiment of unethical values.

For example, if parents were to tell their children...'you must love and honour me, otherwise I will torture you with fire for the rest of your life'...this would be considered psychopathic.

And yet, this precisely describes the disposition of God... at least among Christians and Muslims. For Jews (who dont always believe in hell) the slogan is simplified merely to 'worship me or die.'

I realize this is a highly condensed overview... but my question is, how do think this debate will play out over the coming few decades with the continuing polarization between growing fundamentalism and popular atheism.
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*************
M*W: What I don't understand is why there should be any arguments against atheists! We're not trying to convert anyone with our non-beliefs of a deity.

Not worshipping a particular entity does not make us immoral or dangerous.

We are ethical people who want what's right for humanity.

We don't need to prove the absence of god, because it is not within our range of passion to prove such a negative stance.

The reality of it is, is that Abraham had absolutely nothing to do with the forming of any particular religion. If Abraham really existed, it might be said that the god of Abraham was an Egyptian Pharaoh. People misconstrue Abrahamic religions to be the authentic religion of the child Isaac. This is not true. Abraham probably didn't exist. His faux son would have been Ishmael. Isaac was the much younger son of Abraham whose elder son was Ishmael. The reality of this is, Ishmael and Isaac didn't really exist. Already, the bible is confusing.

If those of you who are any religion beyond the christian god, please let me know. I'm not trying to prove S.A.M. is wrong, I'm just trying to prove that S.A.M. has been misinformed.
 
spidergoat said:
Exactly. How do you make yourself love something? Is it a matter of will?
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Yes and those who's will is evil will turn away from what is good and those who's will is for good will see the good and embrace it.

So yeah you cannot force yourself to accept anything, Some people make a show of it but they are living a lie.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
The light is not exactly uplifting for them for an atheist believing in god is kind of like believing there way more intelligent then me, they see limits in themselfs in god , the truth

to be an atheist you must have heard the word? lol
 
Carcano said:
The arguments against atheists generally fall into two categories:

1. If atheists do not believe in an ethical deity they cannot possibly have any ethics of their own.

2. Atheists are unable to prove the absence of God and therefore have no better case for atheism than theism.

The Atheists usually respond by affirming the Abrahamic deity as the embodiment of unethical values.

For example, if parents were to tell their children...'you must love and honour me, otherwise I will torture you with fire for the rest of your life'...this would be considered psychopathic.

And yet, this precisely describes the disposition of God....at least among Christians and Muslims. For Jews (who dont always believe in hell) the slogan is simplified merely to 'worship me or die.'

I realize this is a highly condensed overview...but my question is, how do think this debate will play out over the coming few decades with the continuing polarization between growing fundamentalism and popular atheism.
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The punishment would correspond to your actions, and so would your rewards. But if you follow the law completly you wouldn't need to believe in God, but would be saved by the law.
 
Adstar said:
So yeah you cannot force yourself to accept anything
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Yeah, but if I don't accept Jesus as my savior, I will go to hell for all eternity!
I've been forcing myself to accept Jesus as my savior for a long time, to no avail. But that doesn't matter. I should have accepted him. Now I will burn in hell for all eternity ...
Justice!
 
greenberg said:
Yeah, but if I don't accept Jesus as my savior, I will go to hell for all eternity!
I've been forcing myself to accept Jesus as my savior for a long time, to no avail. But that doesn't matter. I should have accepted him. Now I will burn in hell for all eternity ...
Justice!
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Yea.. it is a truly benevolent god..
 
greenberg said:
Yeah, but if I don't accept Jesus as my savior, I will go to hell for all eternity!
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If you continue in your rejection. Yes to the lake of fire you will go.



I've been forcing myself to accept Jesus as my savior for a long time, to no avail.
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You have been trying to justify your rejection of Jesus for a long time. But you have failed.


But that doesn't matter. I should have accepted him. Now I will burn in hell for all eternity ...
Justice!
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You are still breathing; i don't believe the door is closed to you yet.


There are people who spend years and years engaged in communication about God, where the effort is to develop a philosophy of plausible denial of God and His Word. As if the philosophy will in some way give them a safe place where they can deny God for the rest of their lives. So they can face Him in the end and say, God i searched for you diligently spending years and years in deep discussion but you never gave me undeniable evidence of your existence. Therefore i was justified in rejecting your Word and you have no right to have me cast into that lake of fire.

But God knows all things and will reveal the deepest thoughts of all people and that will make their arguments fall to the ground even before they are put forward.

There are people who are so fearful of accepting the Word that they spend their lives locked into a struggle to duck and weave and run to escape the decision and at the same time they portray their flight away from God as a running after God.

There is no safety in rejecting the Messiah Jesus and no arguments, no matter how well constructed, will stand to protect those who reject God's Word.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Adstar,

If one has faith in Krishna instead of in Jesus, then one will go to hell for all eternity?
 
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