Lord- Atheist –Service

[Michael]

Like Buddha says, the self is non-existent. We have to believe in ourself.



I think nothingness is the only real 'existence'. Everything else is illusory. Nothing but nothing has every been explained. Nothingness is self explanatory, everyone understands it, but no one understands something, because it's also just nothing.

The universe has no reason to exist, unless it's an illusion, nothingness in disguise.

define "nothing"

 

[Michael]

I would also suggest that as there is "existence" then "nothing" does not exist.



That said, I can imagine that the contemplation of the notion nothing may be a nice way to reach a deep meditative trance, which is quite good for maintaining the flexibility and healthy wellbeing of the brain.

Use it or lose it mate


Michael

 

[c7ityi_]

Perhaps the universe is eternal.

Everything needs a beginning, a cause. Everything except nothingness. If the universe existed without a cause it would be illogical. Can you imagine all this existing without reason/cause?

Perhaps this universe has began a million times before and ended 999 thousands times before.

A million is not enough. And if the universe was eternal, it couldn't begin and end.

Nevertheless, you seem to prefer a “beginning” with consciousness attached to it.

The universe begins and ends in the present moment, and it exists in the past memory. The goal of the universe is nothingness. That goal causes the universe. If you have a goal in your life, you have much energy. That's why the universe has so much energy, it has an eternal goal.

I say if we take away the consciousness that you have anthropomorphically attributed to the initiation of this universe, then perhaps we agree after all.

Consciousness does not initiate the universe, nothingness first creates separation between its infinity (in the present moment). Consciousness is a separation between inner and outer, between "me" (nothingness) and the "universe" (infinity).

Nothingness does not just mean emptiness, it also means infinite possibilities.

There is no reason to attribute consciousness to a purely physical phenomenon – such as the beginning of this universe.

The universe is not physical (separate from consciousness), it is mental/spiritual.

There is no more reason to suggest there is one consciousness over say three or 800 million. There is no reason to suggest that even if there were 800 million consciousnesses that caused this universe, that you will get to live after you die.

There is only one consciousness, in infinite bodies.

After all, that is the crux of it. The fear of your own consciousness ending.

It's not my fear, it's my love. The end of my consciousness is my dream and goal.

Which will happen.

If consicousness could end, I wouldn't be here now. I've always been here, telling you that I've always been here, but you always forget. We're forever travelling towards the goal which can never be reached, because it already is, and always "was".

However, it's rash to suggest God is nothingness and then assume that everything came from nothing ergo there is a God and if I supplicate said God then I get to live on after my death.

If you're dead, you're nothing, but if your body is dead, you will still exist, because you're not things themselves, you're the consciousness of things.

Death does not exist, it's an illusion. Even though we apparently see everything around us die, the existence (self, life) has never died. Leaves fall from trees, but only those empty covers, the bodies, not life. Life is there forever.

Christ is God, he said: I am life. When God breathes outwards the leaves, trees, planets and galaxies are reborn. When he breathes inwards, the leaves drop from the trees, the trees die and so on.

define "nothing"

Nothing.

I would also suggest that as there is "existence" then "nothing" does not exist.

Nothingness is the only real existence.

Imagine that you zoom inside atoms, infinitely. You'll never discover a "particle" which can't be zoomed inside. Everything can be divided. There is space between everything. The universe consists of space. Space is the only absolute reality because everything else can be divided, so that it reveals more space.

Space is the only thing we can be sure of, and then there is this apparent "something". People call it something because no one knows what it is. Nothing but nothing has ever been known. -Everything- is relative, nothingness is absolute.

Only the present moment exists. Because the present moment has no duration, no universe exists in the presence.

What is this existence you talk about, this universe? What is it made of? If it's made of matter, explain what matter is [made of], and so on.

 

[Michael]

Everything needs a beginning, a cause. Everything except nothingness.

You seem to make an exception for nothing. Well I’ll add one more. I say trans-universes (a place where all of the universes appear and disappear within) need not a beginning. No time no beginning. Within this space are universes like ours which do have time and do have beginnings. BUT, those beginnings are not conscious. They occur via some natural phenomenon and end via some natural phenomena.

I see no reason to postulate 800 million Gods into the equation?

 

[c7ityi_]

You seem to make an exception for nothing. Well I’ll add one more. I say trans-universes (a place where all of the universes appear and disappear within) need not a beginning.

You're talking about space, and space is nothing.

No time no beginning. Within this space are universes like ours which do have time and do have beginnings. BUT, those beginnings are not conscious. They occur via some natural phenomenon and end via some natural phenomena.

This doesn't explain where matter originally comes from.

I see no reason to postulate 800 million Gods into the equation?

There is only one God, but because he's infinite, it appears as though there are many gods.

Everything is God.

 

[Michael]

There is only one God, but because he's infinite, it appears as though there are many gods.

Everything is God.

There is no evidence that there is a "God" as in a conscious observer.

So why postulate such? Why do you need to have a God? I can only assume the notion fills some need?

Anyway, we will agree that you are simply suggesting there is only 1 God. You have no evidence for this. There is absolutely no such proof for such a creature. It is equally as likely there are 2 Gods (a God and Goddess) or 800 million Gods. Perhaps there are 800 million Gods and each has an individual consciousness and to YOU it appears to be 1 God.


There is no proof for conscious God like entities.

Michael

 

[c7ityi_]

There is no evidence that there is a "God" as in a conscious observer.

God is within everyone. That's why Jesus could be God. To find God means to find oneself.

Why do you need to have a God?

God means creator. Nothing exists without a cause.

There is no proof for conscious God like entities.

God is not a conscious entity, God is consciousness itself.

 

[Michael]

Nothing exists without a cause.

Then something created God and so on.

God is not a conscious entity, God is consciousness itself.

You'll have to expain this a little more.

 

[c7ityi_]

Then something created God and so on.

No, because, like I've said several times, "God" is nothing, and nothing needs no cause. -Something- can't create anything, something is a creation, only nothing can create, because it's the only thing which needs no cause.

You'll have to expain this a little more.

Consciousness is separation. Separation between inner and outer. This feeling creates all infinite universes, and it comes from the infinity of nothingness. Like the ancient myths say, there is an "imbalance" in the waters of chaos, the primal state, nothingness. Imbalance, separation, between its principles: nothing and infinity.

If nothing is not nothing, it is "something else", and if it's not infinite, it's not the whole (the only existence/reality). There inevitably exists a whole. If matter exists, matter is the whole, if God exists, God is the whole, if nothing exists, nothingness is the whole.

But no one knows what matter is, or what it's made of, or what God is, but everyone knows what nothingness is. The universe can only consist of nothing because it's the only self-explanatory, it's the only knowable "thing", the only absolute, everything else is relative, which means illusive.

If nothing is not infinite, there must be something outside it which limits it from being infinite. But how can nothingness be nothing and everything/whole at the same time? How can it be unlimited and infinitely limited at the same time? By emptying itself from its infinity so that it can contain nothing, by separating and concentrating in points and radiating its infinity.

Infinity is impossible, it cannot be, so infinity is a limit, a potential revealing itself little by little. "God" is this eternal necessity which creates everything towards infinity. The Infinite is undoubtedly a necessity but not a reality. A necessity is an aim, and an aim is a source of energy. But the aim can never be reached. If it were possible, since this necessity is eternal, it would be, and there would be nothing at all here and now.

 

[Godless]

Consciousness is separation. Separation between inner and outer. This feeling creates all infinite universes, and it comes from the infinity of nothingness. Like the ancient myths say, there is an "imbalance" in the waters of chaos, the primal state, nothingness. Imbalance, separation, between its principles: nothing and infinity.

Non-sequirtus mumble jumbo, saying absolutely nothing.

Consciousness is self awareness, not seperation. Nothing seperates, when one is conscious. Fact is consciousness is a unification of perception and self awareness.

If nothing is not nothing, it is "something else", and if it's not infinite, it's not the whole (the only existence/reality). There inevitably exists a whole. If matter exists, matter is the whole, if God exists, God is the whole, if nothing exists, nothingness is the whole.

More mumble jumble? "Nothing" is not a thing, it's absolute non-entity, non-existence, nothing is nothing. Matter exists, matter is not a whole, it takes energy to create matter, energy is not a whole, it diminishes with time, "entropy" God is non-existent entity of your imagination, it more than likely don't exist.

But no one knows what matter is, or what it's made of, or what God is, but everyone knows what nothingness is. The universe can only consist of nothing because it's the only self-explanatory, it's the only knowable "thing", the only absolute, everything else is relative, which means illusive.

Look up the word NonSequirtus, then read the above statement.

Infinity is impossible, it cannot be, so infinity is a limit, a potential revealing itself little by little. "God" is this eternal necessity which creates everything towards infinity.

Talk about contradicting oneself with two senteces!

"Infinity is impossible" Vs "God" is this eternal necessity which creates everything towards infinity

So which is it, infinity is imposible, or god is creating toward infinity?

Godless

 

[c7ityi_]

Consciousness is self awareness, not seperation.

You couldn't be consicous of yourself if there wasn't a separation between you and the universe. Without this feeling, you couldn't say: I am. "Being" is a separation because what you are and what you see are two different things.

More mumble jumble? "Nothing" is not a thing, it's absolute non-entity, non-existence, nothing is nothing.

Yes, nothing is nothing, but do you know what "something" is?

Matter exists,

The word matter is meaningless unless you know what matter is and what it's made of.

God is non-existent entity of your imagination, it more than likely don't exist.

If God means creator, then God exists. It's impossible that the universe could have existed forever.

What reason is there for the universe to be?

So which is it, infinity is imposible, or god is creating toward infinity?

Both.

 

[Godless]

You couldn't be consicous of yourself if there wasn't a separation between you and the universe.

Once we were not even conscious of ourselves. Consciousness is a learned trait, not part of natural order of things, we invented. There's no such thing as seperation from one to the universe, we are just part of it.

Yes, nothing is nothing, but do you know what "something" is?

My Ten Inch is something!

The word matter is meaningless unless you know what matter is and what it's made of.

The word "god" is meaningless unless you know what god is and what it's made of.

If God means creator, then God exists. It's impossible that the universe could have existed forever.

God does not mean creator, it has no meaning see above. Energy exists, energy superseeds your god, if god existed, it still needed "energy" to exist and create anything. Without energy god is nothing. Energy is superior to your ideal of god.

It's impossible that the universe could have existed forever.

Why?

The bigbang never happened, the universe is eternally the past as it will be eternal to the future. No begining no end. The only end to the universe is when you stop perceiving it. You die, it's the end of your universe. No soul exist, that will continue in someother realm of existence. That is just simply wishfull thinking, thoughtout by ancient Egiptians.

Godless

 

[Michael]

No, because, like I've said several times, "God" is nothing, and nothing needs no cause.

Just replace a thinking God with an impersonal universe and your argument is pretty much the same (see Godless above RE: Non-sequirtus BS) only now we agree

Really, c7ityi, you needn’t postulate a conscious creator over an impersonal creation. Come to terms with that first.

 

[Michael]

You couldn't be conscious of yourself if there wasn't a separation between you and the universe.

Our brain is wired to think as we do - that is, separate from the universe.

But some people, say after a stroke or during deep meditation or on drugs, lose the ability to differentiate self from non-self. I think this is what you are referring to. You probably have a brain that can either go into that state quite easily or have something askew with that function of your brain or have had an impairment to your brain from a stroke or use of drugs, etc...


Just something to think about,
Michael

 

[Godless]

. You probably have a brain that can either go into that state quite easily or have something askew with that function of your brain or have had an impairment to your brain from a stroke or use of drugs, etc...

Or a very deep religious zeal.

See here common brain problems with very deeply religious zealots.

click
click

Godless

 

[Rickie]

youre just repeating what the preachers tell you without actualy THINKING what youre saying.
WHY or rather How does His dying save anyone?
it doesnt make any sense.
and when you come to realize that this God is alegedly all knowing(he knew what will hapen in the future hes all knowing after all) and created all then He would be the One responsible for CREATING sin in the first place

perhaps you'd care to explain the difference between God ,Jesus and the Holy trinity to us then,as the bible tells it these are One and the same entity,
or have you even read the WHOLE bible?

BB had to come from SOMETHING so something must have existed before it

the universe is our CREATOR ,gods are just invention of a primitive mens minds and totaly unecesary.
if you disagree ...do tell who created God?
why would universe need a god creator and god doesnt,and we can see the universe but gods are just in peoples imaginations

evolution is a fact how it happens is a theory,try www.talkorigins.org
or evo/creo forum at www.infidels.org they have some very knowledgable scientists that can explain most anything about evolution

god talk is a philosofical debate and has nothing to do with science

Sorry for taking so long to replying. don't get much chance. I haven't got to check out those links yet but i will. thanks, i'm always interested in hearing more info.
Just so you u know, i don't go to church. Don't like not being able to ask ? when i hear something i disagree with. I am not just repeating what they say about that, i just happen to agree with them.
His dying saves us makes sence to me. I think his dying and then being raised was a seal of his promise that if you lived by his way, u would be raised again (I could be wrong, that's just how i c it). Maybe u can explain why the earth just coincidently seems to be taylor made for life. to me, when u consider all the things needed on earth to sustain life, to say it's just fluke makes no sense.
God being all knowing therefore he created sin, i think that's a good point. I don't know what the answer is to that. The only thing i can think of is that maybe he can't or won't look past the choice he gave us. I'm just guessing at that.
God, Jesus and the holy spirt are all one but are all different. That's the holy trinity. They are one purpose, but three didderent entities. Jesus makes it very clear that he and god are not the same being (matthew 26 verse 64, matthew 26 verse 53, matthew 27 verse 46, mark 8 verse 38, mark 9 verse 37,revelatoin 14, and luke 22 verse 69 to name a couple, there are more). God is the most high, jesus (his son) is his right hand man so to speak, and the holy spirit by my understanding is more like a force.
Ur right, the BB had to come from something, so something had to create it, hense a creator. lol. like i said before the BB has theological implications. so u have to consider the philosophical or god debate. I don't know where God came from, never claimed to know. The bible doesn't claim to answer all ? about god. but apparently it says questions will be answered (i not sure where).
u say evolution is fact, i don't agree. I think its a theory made out to be fact. that's just my opinion. But for now i will agree with u that it is. can u explain the cambrain explosion? it took place about 540 million yrs ago. it's called the biological big bang because it gives a rise to the sudden appearance of most of the major animal phlya that are still alive today. that's how jonathan wells phd phd put it. He explained it like this, "ur on a football feild at the goal line and all there is is microscopic, single-celled organisms. u start walking down the feild pass the 50yrd line and headed to the other goal line and all u've seen is the same thing. you come to the 16 yrd line and now u see these sponges and maybe some jellyfish and worms. then BOOM! in the space of a single stride, all these other forms of animals sudenly appear. as one evolutionary scientist said, the major animal groups appear in the fossil record as athena did from the head of zeus-full blown and raring to go." Evolution is supposed to be a slow and gradual process. that don't seem to be the case there.
I'm not saying that evolution is wrong, i'm just saying i don't believe in it. maybe someday i will agree with it. Even if i do, it won't change my belief in god, and i'm not trying to make u believe in god. i enjoy hearing other peoples replies. it's interesting and helps me learn. weather they agree with me or not. I liked your reply, it made me think and u made some very good points. but i will say this, even if u are right that evolution is a fact (and i'm just being hard headed, which i very likely am lol) it doesn't prove the bible wrong on creation. it doesn't say that all life came from adam and eve. the bible says there were other people on earth. read genesis 4 verse 14-17. cain (who killed abel) gets married. and then in genesis 4 verse 25 adam and eve have here 3rd child. where did the other people come from. evolution could explain that, but a priest might say god created adam and eve, why couldn't he creat those people.
thanks for your reply and i look forward checking out those links u gave me. take it easy.

 

[c7ityi_]

Once we were not even conscious of ourselves.

but something WAS consicous! bodies don't just move around if they're not "conscious" somehow. like your heart... it beats but you're not conscious of it. it's your subconscious which moves it. only consciousness can make things move. nothing "dead" can, dead things don't exist!

there are some yogis who can control their heartbeat consciously. just like we can control our breath consciously. but breathing is special, cuz we can breathe even subconsciously.

Consciousness is a learned trait, not part of natural order of things, we invented.

unconscious stuff can't become conscious... it has to be A LITTLE conscious in order to become "conscious".

There's no such thing as seperation from one to the universe, we are just part of it.

yesss, everything's one, but there is still mental separation!!!

The bigbang never happened, the universe is eternally the past as it will be eternal to the future.

ye i don't believe in BB, but it's impossible that Something could have existed FOREVER. it's only possible for nothing to exist forever.

i don't like the idea of eternal somethingness... it's like a universe without an explanation.

it could have existed "forever", but only if it's an illusion (nothing). and illusion has a cause!!!!

eternal real matter is as weird as an eternal infinite personal god. person is a limit. so is matter. objects have a beginning and end. boundaries. so matter can't be infinite.

You die, it's the end of your universe. No soul exist, that will continue in someother realm of existence. That is just simply wishfull thinking, thoughtout by ancient Egiptians.

no i can't believe existence could stop existing... i want it to stop... but i'm always just born again... and you never believe me... you always say it will end when your body dies, but here you are again!!

persons will stop existing of course. c7 and godless. but not the SELF. life. existence. "god"!!!!!!!

Just replace a thinking God with an impersonal universe and your argument is pretty much the same (see Godless above RE: Non-sequirtus BS) only now we agree

well um.. .i think universe has to be conscious and a bit "intelligent" in order for it to create such cool things like humans.

you know... our brain does not create consciousness... it's just an extension which allows consciousness to do more advanced things... everything is conscious of themselves to certain degree... for example: animals are conscious of feelings... but not thoughts!!... still... if you put a mouse in a maze... it'll find its way out cuz it can think... a little...

plants aren't conscious of feelings... but they still can feel and turn against the warm sun... and find food and and eat it..

even matter is consious. that's why it EXISTS!! that's why it holds itself together. and it resists if you try to merge another piece of matter with it. and that's why there's gravity... attraction... a deep will... to become one... with oneself...

everything is aLIVE!

Really, c7ityi, you needn’t postulate a conscious creator over an impersonal creation. Come to terms with that first.

yeah but i don't postulate a conscous creator... the way you think...

Our brain is wired to think as we do - that is, separate from the universe.

lol, even magnets feel separate, that's why they attract and repel!!!!!!!!!!!!

You probably have a brain that can either go into that state quite easily or have something askew with that function of your brain or have had an impairment to your brain from a stroke or use of drugs, etc...

teehee. i didn't say i feel united with all. but i think we're all the same existence in different bodies!

 

[Michael]

well um.. .i think universe has to be conscious and a bit "intelligent" in order for it to create such cool things like humans.

If there are an infinite number of universes then there will be a infinite number with cool things like humans in them. Not only that, there will be an infinite number with YOU in it.

And that's with out a God - just by playing the numbers...

I do know one thing; that I exist

Michael

 

[c7ityi_]

the universe creates life and it is the way it is because everything is controlled by natural laws. what causes natural laws, why are they the way they are? the answer is consciuosness. consciousness is separation. infinite separation.

I do know one thing; that I exist

yes, that's the only thing that can be known, because only the "self" (existence, nothing) exists.

 

[Michael]

the universe creates life and it is the way it is because everything is controlled by natural laws. what causes natural laws, why are they the way they are? the answer is consciousness. consciousness is separation. infinite separation.

And the same could be said of consciousness, so why postulate it?


We'll have to agree to disagree,

Michael