Logical Analysis Of The Existence Of God!

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yank

God
Registered Senior Member
A LOGICAL ANALYSIS OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

Here are some or perhaps all of the attributes that define god:
SINGULARITY (there can only be one)
OMNISCIENCE (all-knowing; having unlimited knowledge)
OMNIPOTENCE (all-powerful; having unlimited power)
OMNIPRESENCE (present everywhere)
OMNI-BENEVOLENT (all-good)
OMNI-SENTIENCE (all-true)

These generally accepted attributes of God are logically flawed.
Following are some points as to why:

1. It is impossible for both OMNISCIENCE and OMNIPOTENCE to exist in
the same being, since a being that knew the future would be powerless
to change it, (it knows the future, but if it can change it, it still
knows what the future's going to be like after it has been changed; so
there's no point in changing the future because it already knows -
which leads to this inability to alter the future) and a being that
could change the future could not know it in advance. (it can change
the future and it also knows what's there in the future; well how can
he know what's there in the future if he's ultimately going to change
it?)

2. An OMNIPRESENT being could not perceive, for one perceives from a
perspective that is not identical with the object of perception, and
such a viewpoint would be lacking for an OMNIPRESENT being!

3. It is even impossible for a perfect being to think; for perfection
doesn't require thinking. Thinking is only necessary if one lacks
perfection and has questions unanswered; as for this being, it is
OMNISCIENCE!

4. OMNIPOTENT means all powerful, with no restrictions. You could do
what ever you wish to do if you were OMNIPOTENT. That means that if
there was such a being it could create something that is
undestroyable. But if it was undestroyable he could not destroy it.
Therefore he would not be OMNIPOTENT. Now, on the other hand if he
couldn't create something that he couldn't destroy he still wouldn't
be OMNIPOTENT!

5. There might be something beyond "all-powerful" and if god cannot do
that, once again, he's not all powerful. but, contrary-wise, if he
can, then what he considers to be "all-powerful" isn't really
OMNIPOTENCE afterall!

Now you yourself can answer god's existence!
 
The same kind of class whose kid's I tutor to try and make up for their miserable failing grades.

Don't worry, I wouldn't waste my time.
 
well atleast these kids have ethical moral values unlike you religious freaks! :p
 
Setting up a strawman...
yank said:
A LOGICAL ANALYSIS OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

Here are some or perhaps all of the attributes that define god:
SINGULARITY (there can only be one)
OMNISCIENCE (all-knowing; having unlimited knowledge)
OMNIPOTENCE (all-powerful; having unlimited power)
OMNIPRESENCE (present everywhere)
OMNI-BENEVOLENT (all-good)
OMNI-SENTIENCE (all-true)
Click to expand...
Then burning it down...
These generally accepted attributes of God are logically flawed.
Following are some points as to why:

1. It is impossible for both OMNISCIENCE and OMNIPOTENCE to exist in
the same being, since a being that knew the future would be powerless
to change it, (it knows the future, but if it can change it, it still
knows what the future's going to be like after it has been changed; so
there's no point in changing the future because it already knows -
which leads to this inability to alter the future) and a being that
could change the future could not know it in advance. (it can change
the future and it also knows what's there in the future; well how can
he know what's there in the future if he's ultimately going to change
it?)

2. An OMNIPRESENT being could not perceive, for one perceives from a
perspective that is not identical with the object of perception, and
such a viewpoint would be lacking for an OMNIPRESENT being!

3. It is even impossible for a perfect being to think; for perfection
doesn't require thinking. Thinking is only necessary if one lacks
perfection and has questions unanswered; as for this being, it is
OMNISCIENCE!

4. OMNIPOTENT means all powerful, with no restrictions. You could do
what ever you wish to do if you were OMNIPOTENT. That means that if
there was such a being it could create something that is
undestroyable. But if it was undestroyable he could not destroy it.
Therefore he would not be OMNIPOTENT. Now, on the other hand if he
couldn't create something that he couldn't destroy he still wouldn't
be OMNIPOTENT!

5. There might be something beyond "all-powerful" and if god cannot do
that, once again, he's not all powerful. but, contrary-wise, if he
can, then what he considers to be "all-powerful" isn't really
OMNIPOTENCE afterall!
Click to expand...
And everyone together now...
Now you yourself can answer god's existence!
Click to expand...
Seriously. Here's a site you might enjoy: Philosophy of religion
 
yank said:
A LOGICAL ANALYSIS OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

Here are some or perhaps all of the attributes that define god:
SINGULARITY (there can only be one)
OMNISCIENCE (all-knowing; having unlimited knowledge)
OMNIPOTENCE (all-powerful; having unlimited power)
OMNIPRESENCE (present everywhere)
OMNI-BENEVOLENT (all-good)
OMNI-SENTIENCE (all-true)

These generally accepted attributes of God are logically flawed.
Following are some points as to why:

1. It is impossible for both OMNISCIENCE and OMNIPOTENCE to exist in
the same being, since a being that knew the future would be powerless
to change it, (it knows the future, but if it can change it, it still
knows what the future's going to be like after it has been changed; so
there's no point in changing the future because it already knows -
which leads to this inability to alter the future) and a being that
could change the future could not know it in advance. (it can change
the future and it also knows what's there in the future; well how can
he know what's there in the future if he's ultimately going to change
it?)

2. An OMNIPRESENT being could not perceive, for one perceives from a
perspective that is not identical with the object of perception, and
such a viewpoint would be lacking for an OMNIPRESENT being!

3. It is even impossible for a perfect being to think; for perfection
doesn't require thinking. Thinking is only necessary if one lacks
perfection and has questions unanswered; as for this being, it is
OMNISCIENCE!

4. OMNIPOTENT means all powerful, with no restrictions. You could do
what ever you wish to do if you were OMNIPOTENT. That means that if
there was such a being it could create something that is
undestroyable. But if it was undestroyable he could not destroy it.
Therefore he would not be OMNIPOTENT. Now, on the other hand if he
couldn't create something that he couldn't destroy he still wouldn't
be OMNIPOTENT!

5. There might be something beyond "all-powerful" and if god cannot do
that, once again, he's not all powerful. but, contrary-wise, if he
can, then what he considers to be "all-powerful" isn't really
OMNIPOTENCE afterall!

Now you yourself can answer god's existence!
Click to expand...
God can change the current future, but he knows what the outcome will be. He can change it in an infinite number of ways, with each of the outcomes of those ways being known, with each outcome of that outcome being known. Technically it is alteration of the Future if the Lord chooses to intervene, as it will be altering the timeline which would progress "naturally". He would know what would happen, but it doesn't mean he wouldn't alter it. If you knew how to build a plan, and then build it, it doesn't mean it was built in the first place, nor does it mean it was never built or can't be built.

I think with your second point you are saying when we percieve things, we percieve them differently from different perspectives, so therefor Omnipresent being would percieve all, and by doing so percieve nothing? I don't believe Omnipresence works that way, since no-one is omnipresent except God I guess we will never know

But by not thinking does he lose his sentience? Remember, God is described as something much greater than the Human mind can percieve. Just because he is so powerful does not mean he is not sentien. He may also think when he has a decision, such as deciding wether to make Man as an expression of his Love.

The boundary of Gods power is doing or creating something which he cannot overcome. Such as Satan. While he was a being of tremendous power in Heaven, Gods power infinitely larger, since God cannot create something which is greater than himself. God also cannot do what is against his nature.
 
yank said:
well atleast these kids have ethical moral values unlike you religious freaks! :p
Click to expand...

I resent that entirely. How could I be a philosopher and be religious? They're completely inconsistent.
 
god is everything... what does everything look like, when you see all at once?... if you are everything, what are you? you are nothing! you have all power... so you have no power... you have all personalities... you have none. you have all karma, you have none!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Here's some proof that God exists
~Jesus prophesied that he would die on the cross and then rise from the dead. Not only did he do that but he got the amount of days right as well. Jesus's tomb remains empty to this day and historical records say that there was a Jesus Christ who was a prophet.
~There are many objects from the Bible that can be found today such as Noah's Ark(it's in a glacier on a mountain I think) and the wheels of the chariots of Pharoah's army that drowned in the Red Sea.
~Some of the stuff in the book of Revelations is happening today such as
1-more wars
2-worldwide disease and hunger
3-children rebelling against parents
4-the leaders of some of the religions today could probably be the false prophet(there are many dangerous cults today such as Eckankar, Mormanism, jehovah's Witnesses, etc)
5-much more earthquakes
6-strange weather patterns(like snow in June, prolonged summer, etc)
~countless angel sightings and visions of Jesus(they can't ALL be liars)
 
Lucidfox said:
Here's some proof that God exists
~Jesus prophesied that he would die on the cross and then rise from the dead. Not only did he do that but he got the amount of days right as well. Jesus's tomb remains empty to this day and historical records say that there was a Jesus Christ who was a prophet.
Click to expand...

Ok, so there was a JC, no one's denying that. Was he the son of God...uhm...I don't think so. And, he was a heretic to the Jews...they kicked him out of Judaism. He should have seen the whole crucifixion thing coming a mile away. No miracle there.

Lucidfox said:
~There are many objects from the Bible that can be found today such as Noah's Ark(it's in a glacier on a mountain I think) and the wheels of the chariots of Pharoah's army that drowned in the Red Sea.

These are historical events. Doesn't prove anything about God.
~Some of the stuff in the book of Revelations is happening today such as
1-more wars
2-worldwide disease and hunger
3-children rebelling against parents
4-the leaders of some of the religions today could probably be the false prophet(there are many dangerous cults today such as Eckankar, Mormanism, jehovah's Witnesses, etc)
5-much more earthquakes
6-strange weather patterns(like snow in June, prolonged summer, etc)
Click to expand...

The world was heading in this direction. It's just logical.
1. There aren't more wars, just more dangerous ones.
2. There is a greater population.
3. Meh...it's the tendency of children to despise old ways and want to start something new.
4. Stupid.
5. I don't know about this one. Was there documentation of earthquakes then, or did they attribute that to god?

Lucidfox said:
~countless angel sightings and visions of Jesus(they can't ALL be liars)
Click to expand...

Uhm...yes they can? What about psychics? Telekenetics? Are they all liars? I can lie a million times about something, that doesn't mean that once I must have been telling the truth.
 
is lucidfox or ludicrous, you cant be serious, I'd like to see these things you claim. some reference material would help.
are there dancing pink unicorns and specled square circles, and do pigs fly in your world too.
 
Ok, I couldn't find the site I wanted but I posted a few good links on the What would truly convince you there is a God? thread.
 
WMA said:
God can change the current future, but he knows what the outcome will be. He can change it in an infinite number of ways, with each of the outcomes of those ways being known, with each outcome of that outcome being known. Technically it is alteration of the Future if the Lord chooses to intervene, as it will be altering the timeline which would progress "naturally". He would know what would happen, but it doesn't mean he wouldn't alter it. If you knew how to build a plan, and then build it, it doesn't mean it was built in the first place, nor does it mean it was never built or can't be built.
Click to expand...

but if god changes the future... he still knows beforehand that he's going to change it... so what's the use of changing future anyway since he already knows what's going to happen after he changes it?? and there's a difference between us knowing and god's knowing... he knows exactly what's gonna happen... as for us - we can only assume that we're gonna build the plan as planned!

WMA said:
I think with your second point you are saying when we percieve things, we percieve them differently from different perspectives, so therefor Omnipresent being would percieve all, and by doing so percieve nothing? I don't believe Omnipresence works that way, since no-one is omnipresent except God I guess we will never know
Click to expand...

OK, omnipresent.. well what i meant by the point was... we see a table from one side & we can't see the other side because we are only at one place at a time... but god is present everywhere & so he can see all the sides of the table at one go... wouldn't that be an ugly sight??? so he can't really percieve things like we do in reality!

WMA said:
But by not thinking does he lose his sentience? Remember, God is described as something much greater than the Human mind can percieve. Just because he is so powerful does not mean he is not sentien. He may also think when he has a decision, such as deciding wether to make Man as an expression of his Love.
Click to expand...

but you tell me why do we think? because we don't have enough knowledge and we desire to learn more... but god knows absolutely everything then he can't possibly think because thinking requires us to possess incomplete knowledge!

WMA said:
The boundary of Gods power is doing or creating something which he cannot overcome. Such as Satan. While he was a being of tremendous power in Heaven, Gods power infinitely larger, since God cannot create something which is greater than himself. God also cannot do what is against his nature.
Click to expand...

if god can't create something greater than himself.. then how can he possess unlimited knowledge???
 
DarkEyedBeauty said:
I resent that entirely. How could I be a philosopher and be religious? They're completely inconsistent.
Click to expand...

well philosophy doesn't imply being non-religious either!
 
Lucidfox said:
Here's some proof that God exists
~Jesus prophesied that he would die on the cross and then rise from the dead. Not only did he do that but he got the amount of days right as well. Jesus's tomb remains empty to this day and historical records say that there was a Jesus Christ who was a prophet.
Click to expand...

have you seen Jesus rising from the tomb???
you've just read it in the bible! so you can't call that proof!

Lucidfox said:
~There are many objects from the Bible that can be found today such as Noah's Ark(it's in a glacier on a mountain I think) and the wheels of the chariots of Pharoah's army that drowned in the Red Sea.
~Some of the stuff in the book of Revelations is happening today such as
1-more wars
2-worldwide disease and hunger
3-children rebelling against parents
4-the leaders of some of the religions today could probably be the false prophet(there are many dangerous cults today such as Eckankar, Mormanism, jehovah's Witnesses, etc)
5-much more earthquakes
6-strange weather patterns(like snow in June, prolonged summer, etc)
~countless angel sightings and visions of Jesus(they can't ALL be liars)
Click to expand...

if Nostradamus can predict almost perfectly...
why can't anyone rite obvious happening events in a book??
 
Lucidfox: Here's some proof that God exists
*************
M*W: Cite extrabiblical references, please.
*************
Luciferox: ~Jesus prophesied that he would die on the cross and then rise from the dead. Not only did he do that but he got the amount of days right as well. Jesus's tomb remains empty to this day and historical records say that there was a Jesus Christ who was a prophet.
*************
M*W: LOL! Do you really believe this crap? Jesus was fictional, and his quoted words are also fiction. According to the myth, Jesus didn't know how long his trial, crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection would take. The writers (Paul) got the timing wrong. Jesus was allegedly on the cross from about 3-6 PM on Friday. That's all. He was allegedly taken to the tomb before sundown. He was supposed to have remained in the tome from sundown Friday, all day Saturday, and be out by sunrise Sunday morning. Jewish law forbade any "work" activity after sundown Friday, and the Roman soldiers got off work at sundown Friday since all the Jews were in their homes by this time. The amount of time the myth says Jesus was entombed was only a day and a half even though it was nighttime Friday, all day and all night Saturday, and sunrise Sunday. Get your facts straight.
*************
Luciferox: ~There are many objects from the Bible that can be found today such as Noah's Ark(it's in a glacier on a mountain I think) and the wheels of the chariots of Pharoah's army that drowned in the Red Sea.
*************
M*W: Provide reliable references for this one! In fact, there are NO objects that can be found from these times. Biblical Archeological Review has stated that there is absolutely no evidence to be found during the Exodus, and those scholars believe the Exodus didn't occur. Further, the bible is in error anyway by saying Moses parted the Red Sea as it was NOT the Red Sea but the Sea of Reeds they allegedly crossed. No archeologist has ever found chariot wheels anywhere.

The search for Noah's Ark in the early 70s proved to be a hoax. Later searches have not found anything on Mount Ararat, either.
*************
Luciferox: ~Some of the stuff in the book of Revelations is happening today such as
*************
1-more wars
*************
M*W: References required.
*************
2-worldwide disease and hunger
*************
M*W: When did the world NOT have disease and hunger?
*************
3-children rebelling against parents
*************
M*W: Yeah, I had to laugh at this one! Back in the day, parents just smote their kids for rebellion. Today, it's a crime, so for the most part, kids don't get smote much anymore but turn to drugs and alcohol which will eventually smote them.
*************
4-the leaders of some of the religions today could probably be the false prophet(there are many dangerous cults today such as Eckankar, Mormanism, jehovah's Witnesses, etc)
*************
M*W: All religions are the false prophet, especially Christianity. It's the beast.
*************
5-much more earthquakes
*************
M*W: I didn't realize they had meteorologists back then to record seismic activity.
*************
6-strange weather patterns(like snow in June, prolonged summer, etc)
*************
M*W: Ancient humans feared and awed the elements, but I've never seen anything recorded about strange weather. They thought the inclement elements were gods of destruction coming from the skies.
*************
~countless angel sightings and visions of Jesus(they can't ALL be liars)
*************
M*W: Ancient humans thought the stars were angels. The patriarchs all went atop mountains to talk to God as that was the custom in those days. What they really did is look directly into the sun until they were blinded and hallucinating from the desert heat, and then they had what they thought were visions of God and Jesus, but it was because of burning their eyes when they were looking at the face of Sun=God.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but they ARE all liars!
 
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