God told me that he didn't tell her to do it.
Killed in the name of God?
- Thread starter debt
- Start date
debt said:
I have. I am a muslim, you know. The Quran is in my experince greater that scientific, it is truth. And believe me I don't say that lightly. Because I know the value of truth. You should read it, thoroughly and draw your own conclusion. You should know however that it is not written chronologically like a story. And try to finish it.
Good luck.
I have a few of Carlin's shows recorded. If you listen and pay attention, he makes you laugh about stuff that is true. That was one of them... maybe not exactly the "more people killed in the name of "god" part but who's got the numbers to back it up? You can't get a head count from the crusades and how about thousands of years of holy wars in the middle east? you got the numbers from that? Israel? Palestine?
The point of the statement is true though... murder is negotiatable to even the most devout christians under the "right circumstances."
It really does show how seriously they take "thou shall not kill."
With an * beside it and the footnote at the bottom of the page.... "except when we feel the need to (or God tells us to) and as long as we repent for our sins afterwards."
The point of the statement is true though... murder is negotiatable to even the most devout christians under the "right circumstances."
It really does show how seriously they take "thou shall not kill."
With an * beside it and the footnote at the bottom of the page.... "except when we feel the need to (or God tells us to) and as long as we repent for our sins afterwards."
let me correct something. The was no thousand years of holy wars in the middle east. In the last thousand years there were only the crusades, and the imperial campaigns (England, France, Spain, Holland, Portugal.), which semi-religious too, and the last campaign on the fertile crescent. For holy wars I think you should look in Europe.
Maybe I was being a little too broad range using the term "holy war" when referring to the middle eastern countries, please excuse me.
So what is all the fighting about in the middle east? More specifically about Israel and Palestine (which are part of the middle east... am I correct?), they wear different shoes?
So what is all the fighting about in the middle east? More specifically about Israel and Palestine (which are part of the middle east... am I correct?), they wear different shoes?
I have a theory that it's just so damn hot. That and there are few resources to go around. Also, it's at the crossroads of Europe, Asia, and Africa.
GuitarToadster said:
It's seems that it's about power. They don't like it how we just come into their country and change a bunch of shite around to our liking. People forget that other countries want to be powerful, too. That's one of the reasons a lot of people don't like us; we're the most powerful country.
Aren't "holy wars" about power too? My way of life is better than yours and you should bend to my will. Sounds rather similar to the Crusades in essence.
Really, what difference is there between government and religion? They are one of the same. They both tell you what you can do and can't do. The difference, of course, being that religion is a choice... but is it really?You get the choice but many countries (including America) force religion into it's government...
"One nation under God," this is in our pledge of allegience.
"In God we trust," this is on our money.
America is inherently Christian whether you are or not. You still follow Christian governing official's laws. They have a Christian ideal and force these ideals into our rights and laws. You get to personally chose to be atheist in the privacy of your own home or what not but your children, atheist or not, still have to recite a pledge of allegience and utter the words or have to at least listen to them.
On a side note, whatever happened to that case by the man in Florida who was an atheist and didn't want his child to be forced to recite or partake in the pledge? How about congress' quick action on that matter? Man, they were right on that the next day... too bad they don't put that much emphasis on REAL matters of importance.
Really, what difference is there between government and religion? They are one of the same. They both tell you what you can do and can't do. The difference, of course, being that religion is a choice... but is it really?You get the choice but many countries (including America) force religion into it's government...
"One nation under God," this is in our pledge of allegience.
"In God we trust," this is on our money.
America is inherently Christian whether you are or not. You still follow Christian governing official's laws. They have a Christian ideal and force these ideals into our rights and laws. You get to personally chose to be atheist in the privacy of your own home or what not but your children, atheist or not, still have to recite a pledge of allegience and utter the words or have to at least listen to them.
On a side note, whatever happened to that case by the man in Florida who was an atheist and didn't want his child to be forced to recite or partake in the pledge? How about congress' quick action on that matter? Man, they were right on that the next day... too bad they don't put that much emphasis on REAL matters of importance.
Only for the past 50 years or so. It was inserted into the pledge as an added anti-communist measure.
I'm not sure about the money. I know that paper money is relatively recent. And that Roosevelt removed us from the gold standard making our money no more than the paper it's printed on. Might be worth a web search.
Still the fact that it is there proves my point.
GuitarToadster said:
First of all there is no "holy war". Jihad is an Arabic word that is abused by thesocial engineering media in te west. It means struggle. As for fighting it is mentionned in the Quran by the word fighting.
Palestine was not a religious war. It was started by nationalist jews. Who were not religious as per se. And it was basically fought off by nationalist arabs, many of the commoners where indeed religiously enspired. Islam sees self defence as evident. Islam had howevr fallen to the position of culture specially under the intelligentia. These nationalist Arabs were both Muslim and Christian. And they fought as nationalists, occasionnaly using religion. There were however religious endeavors to support the war. But most were either socialist or, and those were even more, communist. When these people got the power in their respective lands. Their first victims were the Islamists who wanted just social reforms. They died by the thousands in almost every Arabic country.
later on the struggle about palestinechanged of charachter. It became a Palestinian-nationalist one instead of Arabic-nationalist. On the over all the new western oriented dictators were facing two main streams of opposition socialist and Islamic in coutries were neither were in charge, and Islamic where the socialist brutally ruled. Now, the religious parties at the time, were not made of peasants or the like, they were made of mainly intellectuals and highly educated men and women, nor were they strict they were very "modernity" oriented. Followers of this movements excelled and have most unions in theirhands, Doctors, teachers, economists, scientists, lawyers. They also had massive support from the masses. For example the Islamic Brotherhood, the oldest one and one of the most modern ones, is expected to get more than every already present party in Egypt today. Their direct supporters are said to be more than the coptic minority. And still it was outlawed and it's leaders excecuted or imprisonned.
Over the time these parties were outlawed. The religious became teh targets of the governments. There were propaganda campaigns, the same that are taking place all over the world today, in the eighties maybe even earlier. If you wear a beard you were made suspicious. If you prayed you were suspicious. These measures where very counterproductive. For as most gullible citizens saw committed religious men and women as bad, many joined the religious movement that was still growing. This growth was partly because the already present regimes lacked legitimacy and were not adressing the real problems. This growth was also due to the commitment Muslims felt for one another. As they saw Palestine stolen, and before Turkistan and such countries, and after they witnessed the assaults on Agfghanistan, the Indian/Pakistani Muslims, Bosnia, Chechenya and more.
In the background everyone knew the role the west played in their demise. It was france that devided them in small coutries and left them to powerhungry elites. It was France and England that together with the Colony of israel had attacked Egypt. It was the west that supported this last one and kept it alive. It was England that devided the countries in such a matter that permanent confict would ensue, as was the case in Kurdistan (vengeance for Saliddin, he was a Kurd.) and Kuwait. It was specially England that had partially succeeded in endangering the fundamentals of their cultures through (brilliant) engineering. You should also know that the Muslims ppulace, through out the last century, was quite similar to its western counterpart. They behaved as westerners and lived the same and thought the same.
Tthere was no real hostility towards the peoples of the countries or the countries as they internally were. They were respected for their social justice and were often reffered to as "better muslims that us (Muslims) are".
But the pressure was building up. And the need arose for change. The Islamic current was the alternative and even the Islamists did not want to risk confronting the ruling parties by arms. They kept to their choice to partake in the political game.
In the seventies Islamists stroke as then president of Egypt sadat committed the ultimate betrayal, thereby losing his life. Other that that they were not really active in combat. Until the Afghan war started. The Thousands of young Muslim men were fighting and defeating the Sovjet army. Together with this Iranian revolution this proved an inspiration to the Islamists. But the rulers were quicker and supported by their western patrons many disappeared in prisons. Also the criminal saddam attacked The Islamic Republic Iran. Note here that the Islamists in the rest of the countries were not such hardliners as were their succesfull Shi'a couterparts. Ironically in its endeavor to undermine arafat the zionists created Hamas, which then turned into a trully Islamic resistance. Similarily the Hizbollah grew out of the resistance of the Shi'a in southern Libanon. Why they were quite neutral in teh beginning. The brutality of the idf created the Islamic Resistance Movement Hizbollah. In the end of the eighties there was a revolution taking down the democraticaly chosen Islamists in Algeria. This has happened more than once in semi democratic countries such as Turkey. Nearly at the same time the Gulf warr took place. The blame for it was lead by the americans (I place it on both the English and the Americans). The aftermath of this war was the death of a million Iraqi child because of the sanctions and the local dictator. The other consequence was teh stationning of troops in the Gulf, this Inspired Ossama Bin Laden, who like the Afghan Arabs had become of a more hardenned nature than Islamists elsewhere.
Many arabs and Muslims think that 9-11 was another pearl harbor. That it is the initial act in the tackling of the "green danger" as many in the west had called Islam. An incident that would prelude a war on Islam. Since then the war on terror mutated into the war on political Islam and now many view it as war on Islam. This impression has been further strengthened by knowledge of the rightwing christian movement and their influence in the white house. Even the president shares their believes that the greater israel is now and that armageddon was now happeing. Btw Reagan also thought the same. Muslims think the are under attack because of many things like the oil, the colony in Palestine, old hatred by the ruling (christian) elite, the fact that they advocate an alternative model...
I apologies for the spelling, I wrote this in one time. It is a lot and it is far more complicated. If you have any questions I would be glad to answer them. In the end I would like to draw a conclusion from this. Muslims have not been living by their religion except for a small minority that is now increasing. Muslims are not concerned with dominating the world. They are concerned with their defence. And they are just turning to religion as a last line of defence. And most fortunately they are now embarking on an intellectual, econimic and scientific renaissance.
:m: