just a question

pavlosmarcos

It's all greek to me
Registered Senior Member
Let me start by stating I'm an atheist.
I have a question,
I have an aquaintence that I have always found to be a very intelligent person, wise beyond her years.
if I was stuck with any quiz etc, I could ask and she'd
have the answer.
just recently she claims, she had a divine experiance.
when she related it to me, I said you were dreaming, hulucinating, no she said I know what I know, I saw what I saw, I said was any body else there to back up you claim.
no, but that does'nt matter as I said, I saw what I saw.
well now here's my problem, I have lost all faith in her, nothing she says has any gredence, nothing she does has any worth, I am very fond of this person but, I just feel shes lost it.
this might appear bigoted of me, and perhaps it is.
however as I said I'm an atheist and therefore am a freethinker and humanist, she entitled to believe what she wants. but I cant except illogic.
know firstly you will proberly condemn me for what I've said.
especially you religious members, however I would be happy who every answers.
have you lost faith in someone for simular reasons.
or do you feel that people who act like the been touched by a god, or something simular have no credibility.
I would be very interested to find out, thank you all.
 
There's no short answer for this Pavlo, you have to make up your own mind wehter to let it go, continue your relationship with her, respect for who she is, not what she believes. Let explain; I'm the only atheist in my family. I love my sister very much, and only seldom have we disscussed religion, she knows my stand, I never disscuss with my mom. She's old and fragile, I don't want to ruin that relationship, she's my roomate, my friend. Luckily no one in my family has claimed visions though if they did, I'd let it go, and continue loving them none-the-less.

As for friends, well my x-girlfriend was very religious, and very mystical. And the relationship lasted two years, it ended on other grounds other then religiously motivated. I have a friend I love dearly who always sends me e-mails of prayers and the such, I answer some of them, and I also just let it go, otherwise we would have no relationship at all, I want to keep her around as a friend. (even though we hardly ever see eachother).

I know I give little help here, however it is you that has to decide the value of her relationship, and to tolerate absurdities when they contradict your own. For instance it's absurd to her that you are an atheist. She might not tell you , but she's accepted you regardless. "I'm a correct?".

Godless.
 
(Endless nameless?)

Divine experiences, being internalized, hold greater sway than mundane experiences, especially those stimulated externally.

I had a dream once in which I talked to Jesus Christ in the tabernacle of St. Aloysius chapel at my high school. I also had a dream in which Satan, standing amid the ruins of the public high school in my hometown, promised me the world.

Neither knew what the fight was about. Jesus wanted it done and Satan wanted to win.

Do I believe these visions? To a certain degree. But I also hold that religion and faith are internalized processes, and that God is a creation of human beings. Thus, I would be foolish to ignore what my mind is trying present merely because the style was religious and reflective of my general daily surroundings.

In the end, the dream were very affecting, and contributed greatly to my choice to transcend the classic "Christian" debate (e.g. running to Satanism is not a breaking away, but a mere change in alignment within the same paradigm). Without those dreams I probably would not have entered my "atheist phase" when I did, and thus altered the period which came after--a period in which my education in the history and philosophy of religion has flourished. That process is why, even though I often sound rather quite atheistic, I maintain a baseline theism in acknowledgment to the necessity of communicating with the vast majority of humanity.

In the end, the dreams do have a specific, seemingly anti-Christian application: Are they real visions of divinity or mere creations of the mind? Either case, however, speaks poorly for the traditional Christian cause--either millions of Christians are paying inordinate attention to "the Devil", or all religious visions are an internal product. The latter option can be disarmed, but only by rendering the entire question moot through proof of the existence of God according to a very specific and counterintuitive--at least--theology.

I can tell you, though, that these are among the most affecting dreams/visions I've ever had. The full measure of their character is beyond calculation, but they got me (largely) off the back of Christ himself, which allowed a perspective that has since prevented me from rejoining the caravans wandering aimlessly amid the shadows of the Valley of Death.

The meanings of such intense experiences are often hard to relate, and often slow in developing.

Rather than "rejecting the irrational," it may be of some value to embrace it, and seek its rational core. In doing so, we might be able to help our friends and neighbors understand such elements of conscience and psyche instead of depending inappropriately on them.

Credibility rests entirely in the nature of the claim made, the impact it has on the actions of the claimant, and the transition from belief to action.

Comparative examples:

• Once upon a time, a televangelist interviewed a fellow preacher. The guest described his born-again conversion, that after sin had stolen his son away from him, he was riding the bus downtown, and when he got off the bus, he encountered the spirit of his son on the streetcorner; the son was happy and in the bosom of God, and so the anguish-ridden man became a preacher of the miracle of his own heart. The general purpose of this story seemed to win converts and invite financial contributions.

• A scoundrel sustained a severe leg wound and awoke in the care of nuns. Left in a room with only a crucifix, a religious testimony (variously the Bible or a hagiographic testimony), and a festering leg wound, the scoundrel in his fever had visions of God, and thereafter devoted his life to the Gospels, eventually being canonized as a Saint.

I've been visited by dead friends and dead cats. I've been visited by Jesus and Satan. I've had my pocket picked by a goddamn ghost amid a frantic ghostly siege that left reality bent and wrecked for hours.

Or ....

I've had dreams in which my mind has signaled the terms of reconciliation to certain facts of reality--the deaths of friends, the loss of a particularly-beloved cat, &c. I've had dreams in which my psychological resolutions were phrased in the terms of my environment (religious visions while attending a Jesuit high school). I forgot to button closed the pocket on my denim jacket before scaring the hell out of myself in the middle of a field and dropping my keys as my friends and I bolted. (Really, the look on J's face when I came up blank for the keys would have been priceless had I not been wondering both to myself and everyone within shouting range how the hell the moon changed its position in the sky so dramatically. Of course, I would imagine the look on my own face could have provided a few laughs.)

Point being--there's nothing about any one of those stories that doesn't originate internally. What they actually mean is no more definitive at any given time than what you think love is when getting laid for the first time. As time passes, the superficial will wear away, and there will either be something substantial within--a hidden treasure, generally--or nothing at all.

Openly challenging another's belief in such a case often has a counterproductive effect. Attacking the credibility of the experience encourages by proxy the abandonment of the treasure hunt in favor of defending the integrity of the experience's asserted reality.

Prescribed remedy: Shift focus to the meaning of the issue and be patient. Ten years down the line, one might come to regard the meaning of their divine experiences differently. And that later product might prove to be the more useful, accessible, applicable, and therefore valuable result.
 
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In your shoes, I would think she was a little nutty and I would not hold her in as high regard intellectually after this incident. This doesn't necessarily mean she is any less interesting or compatible with you however. Also, there is always the chance she will see things in a different light with some time.

I have had similar experiences. Sometimes these conflicts lead to a diminished friendship if it is important to both. Sometimes it gets brushed under the rug and rarely talked about again...take your pick.
 
Interesting that atheists should equate themselves with free thinkers... thereby condemning all who dissent with their rejection of God as "enslaved thinkers"

What hypocrisy! And to think this is the basis of a crushed "friendship".. :(
 
§outh§tar said:

Interesting that atheists should equate themselves with free thinkers... thereby condemning all who dissent with their rejection of God as "enslaved thinkers"

While equating atheism with free thought is a dangerous generalization, the "condemnation" of faith has certain merit. In Catholic theology there is the assertion that the "sacrifice of the intellect" is the sacrifice in which God most delights. Such an assertion, obviously, is easy to abuse. Yet as we come down the generations, we see a cross-sectarian faction of Christianity with considerable political power that absolutely rejects certain knowledge in favor of faith. Stem cells, abortion, sex ed, "gay" marriage: just a few issues in which Christians have been perfectly willing to abandon knowledge for faith.

And why should they abandon knowledge for faith? Because they believe they must: they are slaves to their faith, and to the gods they raise.
 
Knowledge can never be abandoned for faith in Christianity.

As the truth is self-attesting, no amount of scrutiny can be it's undoing. The Bible never calls any Christian to ignorance, but rather exhorts them to test everything.

Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
3By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

The historical reality is this: Atheism did not bring us the age of science. A recent writer concedes: “It is widely accepted on all sides that, far from undermining it, science is deeply indebted to Christianity and has been so from at least the scientific revolution. Recent historical research has uncovered many unexpected links between scientific enterprise and Biblical theology” (Russell, p. 777).

Professor J. Macmurray, certainly no friend to Christianity, confessed: “Science is the legitimate child of a great religious movement, and its genealogy goes back to Jesus.” Similarly, N. Berdyaev says, “I am convinced that Christianity alone made possible both positive science and technics” (Smethurst, p. 21).

http://www.christiancourier.com/archives/scienceFaith.htm
 
(Insert Title Here)

The Bible never calls any Christian to ignorance, but rather exhorts them to test everything.

Fair 'nuff. But to the other, how many Christians are purely Biblical? Somewhere between exceptionally few and none whatsoever.

I might also point out my willingness to agree with MacMurray and Berdyaev, as many of those scientific achievements were very un-Christian.

Think, for comparative example, of the so-called "Christian heritage" of America. That heritage includes the abduction and conversion of indigenous children, biological warfare, conventional warfare, the advent of a form of guerilla warfare, misogyny by the boatload . . . . There's no need to drill the point home; needless to say we're still feeling the effects of it

Likewise, while I might hail the importance of pasteurization having occured in the Judeo-Christian heritage, I might point out that it is that heritage that invented and deployed various weapons of mass destruction, sought to displace human populations all over the globe (a technical and logistical achievement in itself), and invented an economic paradigm that "virtuously" depends on maintaining and even growing a poverty class to support the luxury of a minority.

By and large, necessity and environment are much more important to the innovation within the Christian heritage than Christianity itself. I wonder if Berdyaev's opinion considers what would have happened were it not for the Arab world maintaining and innovating Western scientific research while Christians were stomping around innovating warfare and human destruction?

But sure, I'm willing to hand "Christianity" its achievements, along with its ills.

And one of those ills is the sacrifice of the intellect.
 
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pavlosmarcos said:
I have an aquaintence that I have always found to be a very intelligent person, wise beyond her years.
if I was stuck with any quiz etc, I could ask and she'd
have the answer.
just recently she claims, she had a divine experiance.
whats "divine"anyway?
dreams,halucinations,visions etc would be perfectly natural imo,
unless she takes drugs I would suspect only reason for so called divine visions might be begining of schizophrenia,brain tumor or some other type of mental disease. :eek:
 
§outh§tar said:
Interesting that atheists should equate themselves with free thinkers...
what else should they call themselves?narrow/close minded?:rolleyes:
thereby condemning all who dissent with their rejection of God as "enslaved thinkers"
(
if religion aint slavery of mind,I dont know what is.
 
Let me start by stating I'm an atheist.
I have a question,
I have an aquaintence that I have always found to be a very intelligent person, wise beyond her years.
if I was stuck with any quiz etc, I could ask and she'd
have the answer.
just recently she claims, she had a divine experiance.
when she related it to me, I said you were dreaming, hulucinating, no she said I know what I know, I saw what I saw, I said was any body else there to back up you claim.
no, but that does'nt matter as I said, I saw what I saw.
I think this is abandoning logic, theres probably several explanations she could consider but the way it sounds she hasnt, she doesnt seem to have any doubt(perhaps im mistaken), whilst this can be encouraging that she might be telling the truth it can also mean she hasnt thought it through clearly, and with nothing to back her up i personally would just ask her not to mention it in one on one conversation, religion isnt worth losing friends over, so long as you both respect it and keep your opinions distanced.
well now here's my problem, I have lost all faith in her, nothing she says has any gredence, nothing she does has any worth, I am very fond of this person but, I just feel shes lost it.
this might appear bigoted of me, and perhaps it is.
however as I said I'm an atheist and therefore am a freethinker and humanist, she entitled to believe what she wants. but I cant except illogic.
Since i dont believe in these things i'd probably feel similar, so long as you respect each others beliefs and dont infringe on that you should be fine, she may come around after critically thinking about it, she may not, time will tell, i wouldnt lose faith in her she is still as smart as ever.
have you lost faith in someone for simular reasons.
Not for religious reasons.
or do you feel that people who act like the been touched by a god, or something simular have no credibility.
It depends on what they are like, some are relatively smart and down to earth despite it, others become very into religion, the second i dont deal with as they only wish to convert and spread the 'divine message' they recieved. Every case is unique, and you can very easily get on with religious people.
 
She doesn't sound like someone who is used to being led around by the nose. You say she is unusually intelligent and wise. Did these properties just suddenly evaporate? I doubt it.

You didn't explain what kind of "divine experience" she's had - was it merely something she interpreted as "spiritual", or was it more specific? Give her some credit. Has she really let you down?
 
fadingCaptain said:
In your shoes, I would think she was a little nutty and I would not hold her in as high regard intellectually after this incident. This doesn't necessarily mean she is any less interesting or compatible with you however. Also, there is always the chance she will see things in a different light with some time.

I have had similar experiences. Sometimes these conflicts lead to a diminished friendship if it is important to both. Sometimes it gets brushed under the rug and rarely talked about again...take your pick.
I don't think that you should regard her as less intelligent because she had a revelation.

Revelations and God is utterly beyond our intelligence, either if you are a atheist or a theist. Accepting that is a first step. Cause you have to be intelligent enough to at least understand that even science never say that God doesn't exist. As for reason, you have your own and shouldn't expect her to have less reason. This not only goes out to you fadingCaptain, but to all of us.
 
Pavlo, for what it's worth, the world is full of all sorts of people and belief systems, all sorts of illogical behaviours and sometimes the most logical behaviour is the most illogical. (spock of star trek)

maybe your dismay is about how you are unable to allow for the illogocal in your life, be it "God" or Santa Clause, raindeer with red noses and peter pan.

Maybe your friend is challenging you in this regard. You inability to respect her own reality means you can not expect much respect for your own......so to speak.

it is illogical to use logic at all times. in some ways it is quite logical to be illogical. Our lifes journey is not some computer program that is always logical. I would even go to say that the illogical is an essential part of our existence and happiness. I am not necessarilly referring to irrationality but simply the illogical. lateral thinking, brainstorming, dreams and fantasy etc.

To condemn some one for their experiences is the same as condeming yourself.

maybe you should ask her to describe her experience, and why she feels so enthralled by it. Have a look at how some people need to feel significant and how the mind can give the illusion of significance.

i don't know really...... if a friend of mine experienced similar I would simply say....hmmm...that's nice, do you want to talk about it?
But to condemn a friend means you were no real friend to start with.
 
Cyperium,
I don't think that you should regard her as less intelligent because she had a revelation.

Its hard to say without the details. It seems she is being close-minded and relying on emotions instead of rational thought. The reason I say this is because she refuses to entertain the idea that there might be another explanation besides the 'divine'. Fo this, I believe it is appropriate to call her intellect into question, if not in general then for this circumstance at least.

Quantum,
To condemn some one for their experiences is the same as condeming yourself.
Live and let live, eh? But is there not a value in honestly addressing your friends and family with open dialogue? Condemn is a pretty strong term and I agree that condemning the friend would be harsh. Still, you do a disservice to a friend if you take everything they say with a grain of salt and never challenge them. If a friend was to tell me they honestly believe the earth is flat, I am not simply going to say, "Hey, thats your opinion...more power to you!". I'm gonna call bullshit.

Not really disagreeing with you, just pointing out another angle....
 
Live and let live, eh? But is there not a value in honestly addressing your friends and family with open dialogue? Condemn is a pretty strong term and I agree that condemning the friend would be harsh. Still, you do a disservice to a friend if you take everything they say with a grain of salt and never challenge them. If a friend was to tell me they honestly believe the earth is flat, I am not simply going to say, "Hey, thats your opinion...more power to you!". I'm gonna call bullshit.

Not really disagreeing with you, just pointing out another angle....

well...just talk it over.....she is talking about a feeling about an experience, and feelings as you know are not always logical....hey?
 
fadingCaptain said:
Cyperium,


Its hard to say without the details. It seems she is being close-minded and relying on emotions instead of rational thought. The reason I say this is because she refuses to entertain the idea that there might be another explanation besides the 'divine'. Fo this, I believe it is appropriate to call her intellect into question, if not in general then for this circumstance at least.
Sometimes we need to rely on emotions when the explanations is too far beyond us. For her to conclude that what she felt was simply a hallucination or something of that sort. Then she would have to go very far rationally to rule out that it was a real revelation. As you (I suppose) don't believe in God, then it's very easy for you to simply regard the experiance as unreal, because you don't believe in revelations, and thus don't need to "rule it out".

Maybe she felt really uplifted when she had the revelation, should she then be put down just because you didn't think it was real? Who are you to judge that? Maybe she even got so far as to understand that it was real? You haven't walked that path so she can say nothing to convince you, because that would mean she had to explain every step she took, some things just has to be experianced yourself.
 
Dear Pavlov,

You even know you're wrong.

You are putting an intellectual fabrication above what you feel in your heart is the truth of the matter.

And look at what it causes you to do. Because of your foolish bigotry against what Humanity has held to be True since the inception of Civilization, you are ready to sacrifice a Friendship.

Satan must be laughing in delight.
 
surprise surprise, her intelligents won , she said to me yesterday, dont know what I was thinking, when I thought about it, I realised I must of been daydreaming, or it was a trick of the light.
so for me this is great I have my friend back, but I am saddened by my own attitude towards her. I told her how I felt yesterday also, she was very forgiving, and said she would have proberly felt the same had it been me.

however leo you are not my friend, and you do have delusions, and I dont know you from adam.
so there is nothing intelligent, you could ever say, as I dont have to accept your illogical crap.
as I dont beleive in satan, he can laugh all he wants, it wont be me he's laughing at.
 
Pavlo, Congradulations!!!

Now that you both have returned to a reasonable perspective maybe now is a good time to discuss the whys and where for's of religious experience and how persuasive these can be........

How certain feelings exist in us all and how we are all able to experiencee similar revelations that prove in the end to be just a passing experience that we can either cling to or let go of......

again congradulations, and best wishes
QQ
 
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