Prince_James;1226234]Medicine Woman:
Well the Jewish account is almost certainly wrong in at least the sense that the legionaire raping Mary would probably be unknown. Also, Talmudic Judaism is hardly a legitimate source for Jesus studying, considering its rather prejudiced stance against him, whether or not he was historical.
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M*W: The Talmud "recognizes" a Jesus of the day. What that tells me is the Talmud is wrong. There may have been many "Jesuses" of the day, but none of them were savior material.
I haven't heard of this? Where did you hear about it?
M*W: Are you talking about Pandera or his burial location? Read the following:
Jesus Outside the New Testament Jewish Sources
"Insisting that Jesus, though believed by the Christians to be the Son of God, had taught only a short while before his own time (a short while that is, in comparison with the span of human history I.26), Celsus presented the things he thought a Jew of Jesus' time might have said to him, putting them in the mouth of an imaginary Jewish interlocutor (I.28). This procedure suggest he was drawing on what he believed to be early Jewish tradition; the content of 'the Jew's' remarks proves the suggestion correct. He accused Jesus of having made up the story of his birth from a virgin, whereas actually he came from a Jewish village and from a poor country woman who lived by her spinning. She was thrown out as an adulteress by her husband, a carpenter. Wandering about in disgrace,
she secretly gave birth to Jesus, whom she had conceived from a soldier named Panthera.
Ben Pandera
"The Talmud refers to
Jesus several places, typically as 'Ben Pandera', where
Pandera is sometimes taken to be the name of a Roman soldier who was Jesus' illegitimate father. It may also be a
play on words, since the
Greek word for virgin is 'parthenos'."
- McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict
"The story of
Mary's seduction by Pandera was in circulation around 150 C.E., when it was
cited by Celasus [Origen (ca. AD 185-254), Contra Celsum]; and the Toldot Yeshu was quoted by Tertullian in 198 C.E. Almost certainly its author did not intend his work to be taken seriously, but was rather riduculing Matthew by
writing a parody. Nothing else could explain his making
Jesus huios pantherou (son of a panther), a transparent
pun on huios parthenou (son of a virgin)."
- William Harwood, Mythologies Last Gods: Yahweh and Jesus [/B]
Biblical scholar Morton Smith disagrees that Pandera was based on a pun.
The
word parthenos "depends on a Greek translation of Isaiah 7.14; it cannot be derived from the Hebrew with which the rabbis were more familiar.
Jesus is never referred to as 'the son of the virgin' in the Christian material preserved from the first century of the Church (30-130), nor in the second-century apologists. To suppose the
name Pantera appeared as a caricature of a title not yet in use is less plausible than to suppose it [was] handed down by polemic tradition."
-
Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? (1978) p. 61
The name Pandera, Pantera or Panthera "is an unusual one, and was thought to be an invention until [a]
first century tombstone came to light in Bingerbrück, Germany. The inscription reads: 'Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera of Sidon, aged 62, a soldier of 40 years' service, of the 1st cohort of archers, lies here'."
- Ian Wilson, Jesus, The Evidence
"...Panthera was a common name in the first two centuries of the Christian era, notably as a surname of Roman soldiers....There is no proof that Jesus was referred to by the title bo buios tes parthenous ['son of the virgin'] this early on. It is possible, though, that the accidental similarity of the Infancy Narratives'
parthenos to 'Panthera' ...caused 'Panthera' to be picked as the name of the adulterer, once the theme of an adulterous soldier arose in the tradition."
- John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew - Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Vol. 1.
"Eusebius, about 300, tried to explain 'their'
[the Jews] Panthera story as a misunderstanding of scripture, and Epiphanius, a century later, actually gave
Panther a legitimate place in the Holy Family - he became the
Savior's 'paternal' grandfather! Later Christian writers found other places for him in the same genealogy."
- Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? (1978) p. 80
Ben Stada, Born of an Adulteress? "Jesus said, 'Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore.'"
- Gospel of Thomas 105
Was he then the
son of Stada? Surely
he was the son of Pandira? Rabbi Hisda [a third-century Babylonian] said, 'The
husband was Stada, the paramour was Pandira.' [But was not] the husband Pappos ben Judah? His mother was Stada. [But was not] his mother Miriam (Mary) the hairdresser? [Yes, but she was nicknamed Stada] - as we say in Pumbeditha, 's'tat da (i.e., this one has turned away] from her husband'."
- Rabbi Eliezer
"The Tosefta mentions a famous case of a woman named Miriam
bat Bilgah marrying a Roman soldier. The idea that Yeishu had been born to a
Jewish woman who had had an affair with a Roman soldier probably resulted in Yeishu's mother being confused with this Miriam. The name 'Miriam' is of course the original form of the name 'Mary.' It is in fact known from the Gemara that some of the people who confused Yeishu with ben Stada believed that Yeishu's mother was 'Miriam the women's hairdresser'."
- Hayyim ben Yehoshua, "Refuting Missionaries, Part 1: The Myth of the Historical Jesus"
The Talmudhas "accounts of
Jesus ben Pandira, who was tricked into trial, then executed as a sorcerer and blasphemer during the days of Roman occupation of Jerusalem (Sanhedrin 67 a.and Shabbath 104 b.)..."
- Discussion about Hyam Maccoby's Revolution in Judea (NETCOM)
(Note that "hanged" here means "hanged on a cross " - crucified.)
Of Dubious Historical Value
The Toldot Yeshu or Genealogy of Jesus, "told of a virgin named Miriam, espoused to a man named Yohannan, who was virtually
raped by a carpenter, one
Yowself ben Pandera, who entered her bed after dark in the guise of her husband. Miriam's bastard child, Yeshu ha-notsriy (Jesus the Nazirite), became a pupil of the greatest rabbi of his day, but while in Egypt misused his learning and became a sorcerer. Current Jewish thinking on the taboo on pronouncing the name Yahweh was evidenced in Yeshu ha-notsriy's learning the ineffable name and pronouncing it to work his evil. Yeshu was hunted by the agent of all that is good, Yahuwdah (Judas), captured through Yahuwdah's efforts (Yahuwdah had also been taught the unspeakable name, and pronounced it against Yeshu), and hanged on a tree.
- William Harwood, Mythologies Last Gods: Yahweh and Jesus
"Subsequent versions of the story cite that saying attributed to Jesus: 'From filth they came and to filth they shall return,' and a legal conclusion is drawn from it:
the wages of a prostitute, if given to the Temple, may be used for building privies."
- Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? (1978) pp. 60-61
"He answered, Akiba, you have reminded me! Once I was walking along the upper market (Tosefta reads 'street') of Sepphoris and found one [of the disciples of Jesus of Nazareth] and Jacob of Kefar Sekanya (Tosefta reads 'Sakkanin') was his name. He said to me, It is written in your Law, 'Thou shalt not bring the hire of a harlot, etc.' What was to be done with it - a latrine for the High Priest? But I answered nothing. He said to me, so [Jesus of Nazareth] taught me (Tosefta reads, 'Yeshu ben Pantere'): 'For of the hire of a harlot hath she gathered them, and unto the hire of a harlot shall they return'; from the place of filth they come, and until the place of filth they shall go. And the saying pleased me, and because of this I was arrested for Minuth. And I transgressed against what is written in the Law; 'Keep thy way far from here' - that is Minuth; 'and come not nigh the door of her house' - that is the civil government".
- An early Baraita (in which R. Eliezer is the central figure)
(in the Babylonian Talmud's tractate 'Aboda Zara 16b-17a; cf. Tosefta Hullin 2.24)
"There can be no doubt that the words, 'one of the disciples of Jesus of Nazareth,' and 'thus Jesus of Nazareth taught me,' are, in the present passage both early in date and fundamental in their bearing on the story; and their primitive character cannot be disputed on the grounds of the slight variations in the parallel passages; their variants (
'Yeshu ben Pantere' or 'Yeshu ben Pandera,' instead of 'Yeshu of Nazareth') are merely due to the fact that, from an early date, the name
'Pantere,' or 'Pandera,' become widely current among the Jews as the name of the reputed father of Jesus."
- Joseph Klausner, "Jesus of Nazareth"
Sacred and healing? In which religions and cultures? I can only think of Tantric sex off hand as being used for explicit religious purposes, and even then, Tantric practices are often used for simple witchcraft and sorcery.
M*W: Sexual healing was practiced in the ancient goddess religions. The patriarchs of Judaism used this to admit their inability to refrain from the wiles of the goddesses. Sex is a natural act. (Note: I did not say that heterosexuality is the only 'natural' act). Sex is a natural act. When undertaken by two consenting partners (Note: I did not say 'adults' only), it is natural and healthy. It fulfills an innermost need. It is a biological function and is biologically driven. It shouldn't have the stigma that society places on it today.
Back in the olden of days, sexual intercourse was sacred to propagate the race. It was a necessity more than anything. Fertility goddesses offered themselves for the purpose of populating the earth -- something that needed to be done. Than goddesses for that! We're here today because of their sacrifices in bearing progeny!
Sex is also healing. How many of you out there are lonely. You don't have to tell me. I knows. There's a lot of lonely people out there who crave a relationship with the same or opposite sex. That's natural! People need people. As Streisand says, "people who need people are the luckiest people in the world."
How many people go to bed each night crying for someone else to lie next to? I've been there and done that. Have you? Our most innate human fear is the fear of abandonment. Therefore, our most traumatic human need is that of a partner; someone to share our lives with; someone to hold; someone to hold us.
The patriarchy feared our wiles, because we had some sort of control over them. Men were helpless in our presence! We have been shunned as seductresses since Eden, and we have been burned at the stake for less. That's an abomination, when all we wanted to do was give love to one man!
I'm sorry about your bookcase! I hope none of the books were damaged.
M*W: Thanks, so much! We had a big flood here in Houston, Texas, with Hurricane Rita, and it rotted the bottom of my bookshelf. Many of my reference books were molded, and I had to throw them away. (I really grieved over this!). I managed to salvage some, however.
But yes, I'd especially love the St. John = Mary Magdalene reference from the Dead Sea Scrolls.
M*W: Have you read any Laurence Gardiner? He explains the MM=John connection. The "Last Supper" bears clues to the same enigma. Da Vinci was the great "decoder" of the history of the RCC. He painted symbolism or otherwise be killed.
As a former devout Roman Catholic, I stand firm that the RCC is the most evil entity on Earth. It lies about god, and it lies about Jesus. My belief in it lies about me.
