Jihad Misunderstood

[johnahmed]

Surrenderer I provided you with an example the malaysian govt has anti-apostacy laws this is a govt not some fictitious white guy.

i don't know much about the malaysian gobernment but as far as apostosy is concerned, there is no such punishment in islam, certainly Not in the Quran "There is no compulsion in religion" Quran, Personaly i think any that support any punishment for apostosy are rather following the bible than the Quran: Exodus 22
20 "Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed. [1]

 

[path]

i don't know much about the malaysian gobernment but as far as apostosy is concerned, there is no such punishment in islam, certainly Not in the Quran "There is no compulsion in religion" Quran, Personaly i think any that support any punishment for apostosy are rather following the bible than the Quran: Exodus 22
20 "Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed. [1]

Whether you and surrenderer believe in death for apostacy or not is irrelevant to the point I am making and that is simply this, the death penalty for apostacy does in fact exist in the islamic world today.

Yeah the quran is so much more love filled than the bible when it comes to the disbelievers

009.028
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

009.030
YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

009.031
YUSUFALI: They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).
PICKTHAL: They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!
SHAKIR: They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one Allah only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him).

 

[surenderer]

Whether you and surrenderer believe in death for apostacy or not is irrelevant to the point I am making and that is simply this, the death penalty for apostacy does in fact exist in the islamic world today.

Yeah the quran is so much more love filled than the bible when it comes to the disbelievers

Yes it does exist in the Islamic world today so whats your point? I showed you where Islam speaks out against it so anyone practicing it is gonna have to answer for their crimes.Nowhere does the Koran say that Apostacy's should be killed

Yeah the quran is so much more love filled than the bible when it comes to the disbelievers :rolleyes

Kinda like the love you show for Muslims or any other theist

 

[path]

Yes it does exist in the Islamic world today so whats your point? I showed you where Islam speaks out against it so anyone practicing it is gonna have to answer for their crimes

I have stated my point several times now.
I am certain they don't believe they are doing anything wrong otherwise they wouldn't do it. They believe that they are following islam the same as you do. Surrenderer don't forget you are practicing islam in the US and as such are part of a very small minority among muslims worldwide. Your interpretation of islam may not be the same as the majoritys'

Kinda like the love you show for Muslims or any other theist

Yeah that is why I am always so evil to you as a person isn't it You know full well my issue is with the doctrines of the faith not the people but you don't seem to pay attention enough to be able to separate the two.

 

[path]

Just to underline that your interpretation of islam may not be universal, though I obviously prefer your version.

apostacy

Summary: In Shari’ah law, the penalty for a Muslim who departs from Islam is death. Quotations from Islamic legal sources are presented, so a person can read for himself the Islamic texts where capital punishment is prescribed as the appropriate punishment for the crime of apostasy. A Muslim's fear of being rejected by family and society and possibly murdered is a deterrent against conversion from Islam.

1. Ahmad ibn Naqib, Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law.
2. Imam Ibn Anas Malik, Al-Muwatta: The First Formulation of Islamic Law.
3. Al-Bukhari, The Translation of the Meaning of Sahih Al-Bukhari.
4. Imam Muslim, Sahih Muslim: Being Traditions of the Sayings and Doings of the Prophet Muhammad.
5. Imam Abu Dawud, Sunan Abu Dawud.
6. Ibn-I-Maja, Sunan Ibn-I-Majah.
7. Al Hadis, Mishkat-ul-Masabih
8. Rahman Doi, Shar'ah: The Islamic Law.
9. Alhaji Ajijola, Introduction to Islamic Law
10. Adbul 'Oudah, Criminal Law of Islam, Volume II.
11. Adbul 'Oudah, Criminal Law of Islam, Volume IV.
12. Mohamed El-Awa, Punishment in Islamic Law: A Comparative Study.

In Islam, an apostate (murtad) is a Muslim who renounces his faith in Islam. This renouncement may be by word or by deed. Muhammad, the Apostle of Islam, instituted the death penalty for the crime of leaving the fold of Islam. Until this day, the threat of this prospective punishment negates true religious freedom for millions of Muslims. Those who leave Islam face the threat of death until they escape to a non-Islamic nation that respects the civil and human rights of its citizenry

islam online

The prescribed punishment for a murtadd:



If a sane person who has reached puberty voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be punished.þ In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (or his representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed.þ

You would do better fighting against these muslims rather than me

 

[surenderer]

Surrenderer don't forget you are practicing islam in the US and as such are part of a very small minority among muslims worldwide. Your interpretation of islam may not be the same as the majoritys'

Path I know I live in the US but also remember I have told your before I discovered Islam oversea's and have lived in other countries a good portion of my life. My vision of Islam may be a little different than other Muslim's simply because by living in America I dont get the persecution that other Muslims get by the US foreign policies that make the US so hated in the world.But the fact that 99% of Muslims oversea's arent hostile or murderers or what ever means that you have a sterotypical view of Muslims not me

Yeah that is why I am always so evil to you as a person isn't it You know full well my issue is with the doctrines of the faith not the people but you don't seem to pay attention enough to be able to separate the two.

[/QUOTE]



But you arent talking about the doctrines you are only talking about the small minority (like most here do) that dont follow the doctrines.....I have asked you to show me where in the Koran it says to kill people who leave Islam......thats doctrine.....you show me where Malaysia....thats people......now who again is not paying attention?(and also where did I call you evil?)

 

[surenderer]

QUOTE=path]Just to underline that your interpretation of islam may not be universal, though I obviously prefer your version.

It may not be universal but it is definatly the majority

You would do better fighting against these muslims rather than me

[/QUOTE]



I am fighting against them Path :m:

 

[path]

. My vision of Islam may be a little different than other Muslim's simply because by living in America

I would bet it is worlds apart but neither you nor I can prove that either way.

I dont get the persecution that other Muslims get by the US foreign policies that make the US so hated in the world.

Nonsense you are reverting to islamic victimhood again. If the US govt had a policy of persecution in regards to muslims you, as a US citizen would be the first to know not the last.

But the fact that 99% of Muslims oversea's arent hostile or murderers or what ever means that you have a sterotypical view of Muslims not me

I think your percentage estimate is way off and if you wish I can get data regarding support for OBL in the muslim world to backup my position (support for OBL may not make them murderers but it sure as hell indicates a wider trend in advocating violence).

But you arent talking about the doctrines you are only talking about the small minority (like most here do) that dont follow the doctrines.....I have asked you to show me where in the Koran it says to kill people who leave Islam......thats doctrine.....you show me where Malaysia....thats people......now who again is not paying attention?(and also where did I call you evil?)

If it was a small minority as you claim then I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. While I admire your interpretation of your faith I think you, not surprisingly, see it through rose colored glasses. You don't follow the quran alone but also hadith and sunnah correct? Otherwise you are a submitter which I am sure you regard as deviant.

 

[surenderer]

I would bet it is worlds apart but neither you nor I can prove that either way.

Except of course I know many many Muslims and I also became Muslim in another land and I dont have my opinions of Muslims filtered to me through the media or propoganda

Nonsense you are reverting to islamic victimhood again. If the US govt had a policy of persecution in regards to muslims you, as a US citizen would be the first to know not the last.

Well for one thing I am not Arab and unless someone knows me personally they probably dont even know that I am Muslim.But perhaps you should tell your feelings on this to the Muslims that have been jailed and still havent seen a lawyer or had a trial

(support for OBL may not make them murderers but it sure as hell indicates a wider trend in advocating violence).

Thats the same thinking that makes Muslims in other lands wanna kill Americans....."Support for Bush may not make them Murderers but it sure makes them more prone to violence against Muslims".......thats weak....Most Muslims understand OBL's anger but disagree with his means of retaliation

While I admire your interpretation of your faith I think you, not surprisingly, see it through rose colored glasses.

Thats the thing Path I and over a billion other Muslims see Islam as it is suppose to be......Notice I have never said that Islam is a "Religion of Peace".....I do say that Islam is a "Religion of self defense" though any Muslim thats killing innocents is going against the Koran and its Prophets(peace upon them) :m: