Jihad Misunderstood

[surenderer]

Salaams,


I would know the answer allready if I were to ask this in an Islamic forum but I was curious to what the people here thought about this...why is murders commited by Muslims a sign of the religion? for example if a Muslim commits a murder the headline would read "Muslims kill--------" why is that? However, when Serbs murder and rape innocent women in Bosnia, they are not called "Christian terrorists", nor are the activities in Northern Ireland labeled "Christian terrorism". Also, when right-wing Christians in the U. S. bomb abortion clinics, they are not called "Christian terrorists" are they?(I wont even go into the US and Iraq) However, when something happens involving a Muslim, they often try to put the blame on Islam itself -- and not the misguided individual. The Arabic word "jihad", which is often translated as "Holy War", simply means "to struggle". The word for "war" in Arabic is "harb", not "jihad". "Struggling", i.e. "making jihad", to defend Islam, Muslims or to liberate a land where Muslims are oppressed is certainly allowed (and even encouraged) in Islam But any such activities must be done according to the teachings of Islam. Islam also clearly forbids "taking the law into your own hands", which means that individual Muslims cannot go around deciding who they want to kill, punish or torture Trial and punishment must be carried out by a lawful authority and a knowledgeable judge. Also, when looking at events in the Muslim World, you should remember that a long period of colonialism ended fairly recently in most Muslim countries. During this time, the peoples in this countries were culturally, materially and religiously exploited - mostly by the so-called "Christian" nations of the West. This period has not really come to an end in many Muslim countries, where people are still under the control of foreign powers or puppet regimes supported by foreign powers(do you deny this?). Also, through the media, people in the West are made to believe that tyrants like Saddam Hussein in Iraq and Moamar Qaddafi in Libya are "Islamic" leaders -- when just the opposite is true...... Neither of these rulers even profess Islam as an ideology, but only use Islamic slogans to manipulate their helpless populations. They have about as much to do with Islam as Hitler had to do with Christianity.....In reality, many Middle Eastern regimes which people think of as being "Islamic" oppress the practice of Islam in their countries. So suffice it to say that "terrorism" and killing innocent people directly contradicts the teachings of Islam.......<shrug> what do you guys/and ladies think?....peace :m:

 

[marv]

Because it was muslims who declared jihad.

 

[mustafhakofi]

the irish problem was between catholics and Protestants(both xian versions)the terrorism came from both sides hence they were called provos(ira) and unionists.
the serbs were killing croats(croations(xian)) and bosniaks(bosnian(muslim))and vice verser.and this was a three way war so was not classed as terrorism.
and as you well know a muslim terrorists alway calls for a holy struggle against the infidels, which, is to unit all of islam.
xians dont do this.

and I was born and brought up a muslim.

well put marv.

 

[Leo Volont]

Salaams,


I would know the answer allready if I were to ask this in an Islamic forum but I was curious to what the people here thought about this...why is murders commited by Muslims a sign of the religion? for example if a Muslim commits a murder the headline would read "Muslims kill--------" why is that? However, when Serbs murder and rape innocent women in Bosnia, they are not called "Christian terrorists", nor are the activities in Northern Ireland labeled "Christian terrorism". Also, when right-wing Christians in the U. S. bomb abortion clinics, they are not called "Christian terrorists" are they?(I wont even go into the US and Iraq) However, when something happens involving a Muslim, they often try to put the blame on Islam itself -- and not the misguided individual. The Arabic word "jihad", which is often translated as "Holy War", simply means "to struggle". The word for "war" in Arabic is "harb", not "jihad". "Struggling", i.e. "making jihad", to defend Islam, Muslims or to liberate a land where Muslims are oppressed is certainly allowed (and even encouraged) in Islam But any such activities must be done according to the teachings of Islam. Islam also clearly forbids "taking the law into your own hands", which means that individual Muslims cannot go around deciding who they want to kill, punish or torture Trial and punishment must be carried out by a lawful authority and a knowledgeable judge. Also, when looking at events in the Muslim World, you should remember that a long period of colonialism ended fairly recently in most Muslim countries. During this time, the peoples in this countries were culturally, materially and religiously exploited - mostly by the so-called "Christian" nations of the West. This period has not really come to an end in many Muslim countries, where people are still under the control of foreign powers or puppet regimes supported by foreign powers(do you deny this?). Also, through the media, people in the West are made to believe that tyrants like Saddam Hussein in Iraq and Moamar Qaddafi in Libya are "Islamic" leaders -- when just the opposite is true...... Neither of these rulers even profess Islam as an ideology, but only use Islamic slogans to manipulate their helpless populations. They have about as much to do with Islam as Hitler had to do with Christianity.....In reality, many Middle Eastern regimes which people think of as being "Islamic" oppress the practice of Islam in their countries. So suffice it to say that "terrorism" and killing innocent people directly contradicts the teachings of Islam.......<shrug> what do you guys/and ladies think?....peace :m:

It seems that you want to defend Islam by pleading that all the violent cultures that have adhered to it for Centuries now have simply been ignoring all of its loftier and more peaceful doctrines, and that all of the violence has sourced out of individual initiative. You then endeavor to argue that Islam has been no more violent than Protestant Christianity.

To claim that your Religion has had no moral effect on the cultures which it subsumes -- that is your defence!? If nobody will abide by it, then should it not move aside for an Effective Religion? Then to say that it is no worse than Protestant Christianity, is to only condemn Islam further still. Protestant Christianity, don't you know, believes in the absolute Forgiveness of Sins, and so Protestant Christianity regards no moral excess as detrimental to them. Indeed, all of the Violence in Europe and coming out of Europe for the last 5 Centuries has been because of the Freedom to Sin which Protestantism instructs. So, to be as bad as Protestantism, Islam also must have something in its content which makes ordinary Muslims suppose that they are permitted violence. Again, I insist that Mohammed conducting raids and instigating Battles was perhaps not providing the best Moral Example to his religious constituency.

 

[path]

A side question since you mention Harb. Where is the world divided into "Dar al Harb" and "Dar al Islam"? Is it in the quran or hadith and sunnah.

 

[Q25]

why is murders commited by Muslims a sign of the religion?

for example if a Muslim commits a murder the headline would read "Muslims kill--------" why is that?

maybe b/c they usualy shout it out loud and clear its in the name of Allah,Islam our holy war etc.

However, when Serbs murder and rape innocent women in Bosnia, they are not called "Christian terrorists",

they probably would be,if they claimed its all done in the name of Christ!

nor are the activities in Northern Ireland labeled "Christian terrorism".

maybe it should be,Catholics and Protestants are both Xians arent they?

Also, when right-wing Christians in the U. S. bomb abortion clinics, they are not called "Christian terrorists" are they?

and whos gonna call them that?
certainly not the totaly Xian GWB goverment!
I suspect most media are Xian also or at least highly sympathetic to GW,
and anyone oposing him would be most likely treated like an enemy of the state

 

[surenderer]

Because it was muslims who declared jihad.

Thank you for makin my point(even though you werent trying to) Using OBL to represent all Muslims.....Well done Marv :m:

 

[surenderer]

A side question since you mention Harb. Where is the world divided into "Dar al Harb" and "Dar al Islam"? Is it in the quran or hadith and sunnah.

That's a Whabbism thing in todays world Path:


Noble Verse 45:14 "Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the days of Allah: It is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each people according to what they have earned."


This means that God is the judge....not me :m:

 

[path]

That's a Whabbism thing in todays world Path:


Noble Verse 45:14 "Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the days of Allah: It is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each people according to what they have earned."


This means that God is the judge....not me :m:

But where do they get it from quran or hadith?

 

[surenderer]

and I was born and brought up a muslim.

So?....but now that you mention it since you left Islam and I am assuming still alive I guess you put to rest the lie that Muslims kill those who leave Islam

and as you well know a muslim terrorists alway calls for a holy struggle against the infidels

Yes terrorists do but I'm not talking about them.....do ordinary Muslims do this also?

well put marv.

[/QUOTE]



Well if I followed OBL I would have left Islam also.....well put Mustafhakofi you showed your true self when you were a Muslim :m:

 

[path]

So?....but now that you mention it since you left Islam and I am assuming still alive I guess you put to rest the lie that Muslims kill those who leave Islam

Are they still following the prophets teaching if they don't?

Says Ibn Hazm, "It has come from 'Umar, 'Abdurahman ibn 'Auf, Mu'azh ibn Jabal, Abu Hurairah and other companions that anyone who skips one obligatory prayer until its time has finished becomes an apostate. We find no difference of opinion among them on this point." This was mentioned by al-Munzhiri in at-Targheeb wa atTarheeb. Then he comments, "A group of companions and those who came after them believed that an intentional decision to skip one prayer until its time is completely finished makes one an unbeliever. The people of this opinion incude 'Umar ibn al-Khattab, 'Abdullah ibn Mas'ud, 'Abdullah ibn 'Abbas, Mu'azh ibn Jabal, Jabir ibn 'Abdullah and Abu ad-Darda'. Among the non-companions who shared this view were Ibn Hanbal, Ishaq ibn Rahwaih, 'Abdullah ibn al-Mubarak, an-Nakha'i, al-Hakim ibn 'Utaibah, Abu Ayyub as-Sakhtiyani, Abu Dawud at-Tayalisi, Abu Bakr ibn Abu Shaibah, Zuhair ibn Harb, and others.

Some hadith make it clear that such a person should be killed. For example:

Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet, upon whom be peace, said, "The ties of Islam and the principles of the religion are three, and whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever, and his blood becomes lawful: testifying that there is no god except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan." (Related by Abu Ya'la with a hassan chain.) Another narration states, "If anyone leaves one of them, by Allah he becomes an unbeliever and no voluntary deeds or recompense will be accepted from him, and his blood and wealth become lawful." This is a clear indication that such a person is to be killed.

Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.)

So you claim that all the storys apostates tell of having to hide thier disblief or be killed are just fantasy?

 

[surenderer]

But where do they get it from quran or hadith?

<shrug>....probably both......I would be the 1st to tell you that there are things in the Koran that could be used (and have) to incite violence.....Islam doesnt tell people to reject learning of History or Science but those who dont learn History wont realize that certain Surah's were revealed at certain times for certain battles(or specific foes)....example:



Noble Verse 9:5 "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

As we clearly see in the above Noble Verses, the laws of killing the unbelievers or the pagans were for particular and specific times, and not for all times and all places. Notice the quotes "when the sacred months have passed...".

It is important to know that when Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)started preaching Islam, he had to deal with 360 Arab pagan tribes at first, and he and his followers had to go through a lot of battles that were imposed upon them by the pagans who were threatened by the new way of Life



Peace to you Path :m:

 

[surenderer]

Are they still following the prophets teaching if they don't?



So you claim that all the storys apostates tell of having to hide thier disblief or be killed are just fantasy?

Path I am quoting you Koran Surahs not Hadiths.....there is alot of controvesy about Hadith's so I dont comment on those much....but when the Koran says that God is the judge then to me that overrides any Hadith.....peace :m:

 

[path]

<shrug>....probably both......I would be the 1st to tell you that there are things in the Koran that could be used (and have) to incite violence.....Islam doesnt tell people to reject learning of History or Science but those who dont learn History wont realize that certain Surah's were revealed at certain times for certain battles(or specific foes)....example:



Noble Verse 9:5 "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

As we clearly see in the above Noble Verses, the laws of killing the unbelievers or the pagans were for particular and specific times, and not for all times and all places. Notice the quotes "when the sacred months have passed...".

It is important to know that when Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)started preaching Islam, he had to deal with 360 Arab pagan tribes at first, and he and his followers had to go through a lot of battles that were imposed upon them by the pagans who were threatened by the new way of Life



Peace to you Path :m:

Surrenderer there are "sacred months" every year from muhammeds time until now. Does the quran ever say "sacred months of the year 672" or anything similar? To me that just sounds like a decree outlining what times of year are preferred for killing (before you claim I am ignorant just show me WHERE this killing time is limited to a specific year).

 

[path]

Path I am quoting you Koran Surahs not Hadiths.....there is alot of controvesy about Hadith's so I dont comment on those much....but when the Koran says that God is the judge then to me that overrides any Hadith.....peace :m:

Do the majority of muslims follow hadith?

 

[surenderer]

So you claim that all the storys apostates tell of having to hide thier disblief or be killed are just fantasy?

Not at all.......Muslims used to fight wars with others simply because people didnt like the Muslim way of Life......so Unbelievers used to pretend to be Muslims (like spies) to assassinate or cause mischief or to find out Muslim plans for attack etc......thus it became illegal to openly leave Islam......This all started after the Prophet(pbuh) was almost killed by one such person :m:

 

[surenderer]

Do the majority of muslims follow hadith?

Not all Hadiths and only the Hadiths that dont contradict the Koran(Koran is always 1st and foremost) :m:

 

[path]

Not at all.......Muslims used to fight wars with others simply because people didnt like the Muslim way of Life......so Unbelievers used to pretend to be Muslims (like spies) to assassinate or cause mischief or to find out Muslim plans for attack etc......thus it became illegal to openly leave Islam......This all started after the Prophet(pbuh) was almost killed by one such person :m:

A moment ago you said it was a lie!?

 

[path]

Not all Hadiths and only the Hadiths that dont contradict the Koran(Koran is always 1st and foremost) :m:

Only hadiths that are sahih right?

 

[surenderer]

Surrenderer there are "sacred months" every year from muhammeds time until now. Does the quran ever say "sacred months of the year 672" or anything similar? To me that just sounds like a decree outlining what times of year are preferred for killing (before you claim I am ignorant just show me WHERE this killing time is limited to a specific year).

I dont call you names dude ....anyways I should have been more specific....the Ayat before it states:


[9.4] Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).



So this is speaking of a specific agreement that the Prophet(pbuh) was adhering to :m: