Jewish/Christian Prophecies

Micah 5:2
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Context is everything. A few verses later this prophecy of the Messiah says this:

"And he will be our peace
when the Assyrians invade our land
and march through our fortresses.
We will raise against them seven shepherds,
even eight commanders,
6 who will rule the land of Assyria with the sword,
the land of Nimrod with drawn sword.
He will deliver us from the Assyrians
when they invade our land
and march across our borders."

I don't recall Jesus delivering anyone from the Assyrians. The Assyrian siege of Jerusalem occurred around 700 BC. It was devastating and no Messiah delivered them.

Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Once again, context. The Messiah is prophesied as ruling the government of Israel and reigning on David's throne. None of this happened with Jesus.

"Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this."
 
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What was there to stop the evangelists writing their stories to make such prophecies seem to have been fulfilled? They would have had a strong incentive to do that.

Among what are likely many fictional details in the Gospels regarding Jesus' life, Herod's massacre of the innocent infants is one that notably stands out. There is no record in any historical accounts of this ever happening. It is only recorded in the gospel of Matthew.

"The account of the massacre of the innocents in Matthew is the second invocation of the story in the Bible, and draws on its Jewish roots from the narrative of Moses' escape from Pharaoh's edict in The Exodus. Mainstream scholars do not accept the historicity of the Matthew account.[2][3][9]

The story of the massacre is found in no gospel other than Matthew, nor is it mentioned in the surviving works of Nicolaus of Damascus (who was a personal friend of Herod the Great), nor in Josephus's Antiquities of the Jews, despite his recording many of Herod's misdeeds, including the murder of three of his own sons.[4] The early 5th-century account of Macrobius—that "on hearing that the son of Herod, king of the Jews, had been slain when Herod ordered that all boys in Syria under the age of two be killed, [Augustus] said, 'It's better to be Herod's pig than his son'"—has been discounted as extra-biblical evidence for the event due to its later authorship, possible influence by the gospel narrative, and the confused nature of the account.[10] In view of the lack of independent confirmation that the event ever occurred, the most likely explanation for the story is that it is folklore inspired by Herod's reputation.[9]

The author appears to have modeled the episode on the biblical story of Pharaoh's attempt to kill the Israelite children in the Book of Exodus, as told in an expanded version that was current in the 1st century.[11] In that expanded story, Pharaoh kills the Hebrew children after his scribes warn him of the impending birth of the threat to his crown (i.e., Moses), but Moses' father and mother are warned in a dream that the child's life is in danger and act to save him.[12] Later in life, after Moses has to flee, like Jesus, he returns when those who sought his death are themselves dead."--- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Innocents
 
What was there to stop the evangelists writing their stories to make such prophecies seem to have been fulfilled? They would have had a strong incentive to do that.
But what strong incentive did they have? Money, fame, power? They had no incentive other than persecution, ridicule and eventually horrific deaths.
 
This is a famous one.

Virgin is a mistranslation, the Hebrew just said young woman.

Good questions Pinball.

I think the most compelling reason it should be translated "virgin" is because that is how it was translated into Greek hundreds of years before Christ. At a minimum, it tells us what people well before Christ thought it meant.

Also Emmanuel?

The reasoning behind referring to Jesus as Emmanuel.

Matthew 1:18-25

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.
 
Context is everything. A few verses later this prophecy of the Messiah says this:

"And he will be our peace
when the Assyrians invade our land
and march through our fortresses.
We will raise against them seven shepherds,
even eight commanders,
6 who will rule the land of Assyria with the sword,
the land of Nimrod with drawn sword.
He will deliver us from the Assyrians
when they invade our land
and march across our borders."

I don't recall Jesus delivering anyone from the Assyrians. The Assyrian siege of Jerusalem occurred around 700 BC. It was devastating and no Messiah delivered them.

I don't think that is a part of prophecy, yes context is everything I agree.

Once again, context. The Messiah is prophesied as ruling the government of Israel and reigning on David's throne. None of this happened with Jesus.

"Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this."

I do believe that God's promise to David will be fulfilled by Jesus, as He is the eternal King.
 
But what strong incentive did they have? Money, fame, power? They had no incentive other than persecution, ridicule and eventually horrific deaths.
To persuade others of the truth of the new religion of course. The evangelists were, er, evangelists, spreading the message, were they not? That was their purpose.
 
Among what are likely many fictional details in the Gospels regarding Jesus' life, Herod's massacre of the innocent infants is one that notably stands out. There is no record in any historical accounts of this ever happening. It is only recorded in the gospel of Matthew...

The book of Matthew is a historical book, why would he make this story up?

There is no motive.
 
To persuade others of the truth of the new religion of course. The evangelists were, er, evangelists, spreading the message, were they not? That was their purpose.
Why would they want to make a religion up? I guess the Mormons have an incentive, because they get a planet each and a wife of their choice, most religions have got incentives, the early Christian religion had eternal life after Jesus said it... I see no motive at all. None of the disciples owned anything, they were hobos, early Christians were thrown to lions for fun, crucified etc. how can you see a motive? All I can see is truth, it must of been true.

Even Mohammad spoke highly Jesus as a prophet over 600 years after his death. The Jews have no temple now so no messiah. The God of the bible is real or He isn't.

If you are an atheist, which monotheistic religion sounds the most reasonable one to you?
 
"A period of forty years separates the death of Jesus from the writing of the first gospel. History offers us little direct evidence about the events of this period, but it does suggest that the early Christians were engaged in one of the most basic of human activities: story-telling. In the words of Mike White, "It appears that between the death of Jesus and the writing of the first gospel, Mark, that they clearly are telling stories. They're passing on the tradition of what happened to Jesus, what he stood for and what he did, orally, by telling it and retelling it. And in the process they are defining Jesus for themselves."

These shared memories, passed along by word of mouth, are known as "oral tradition." They included stories of Jesus' miracles and healings, his parables and teachings, and his death. Eventually some stories were written down. The first written documents probably included an account of the death of Jesus and a collection of sayings attributed to him.

Then, in about the year 70, the evangelist known as Mark wrote the first "gospel" -- the words mean "good news" about Jesus. We will never know the writer's real identity, or even if his name was Mark, since it was common practice in the ancient world to attribute written works to famous people. But we do know that it was Mark's genius to first to commit the story of Jesus to writing, and thereby inaugurated the gospel tradition.

"The gospels are very peculiar types of literature. They're not biographies," says Prof. Paula Fredriksen, "they are a kind of religious advertisement. What they do is proclaim their individual author's interpretation of the Christian message through the device of using Jesus of Nazareth as a spokesperson for the evangelists' position."

About 15 years after Mark, in about the year 85 CE, the author known as Matthew composed his work, drawing on a variety of sources, including Mark and from a collection of sayings that scholars later called "Q", for Quelle, meaning source. The Gospel of Luke was written about fifteen years later, between 85 and 95. Scholars refer to these three gospels as the "synoptic gospels", because they "see" things in the same way. The Gospel of John, sometimes called "the spiritual gospel," was probably composed between 90 and 100 CE. Its style and presentation clearly set it apart from the other three.

Each of the four gospels depicts Jesus in a different way. These characterizations reflect the past experiences and the particular circumstances of their authors' communities. The historical evidence suggests that Mark wrote for a community deeply affected by the failure of the First Jewish Revolt against Rome. Matthew wrote for a Jewish community in conflict with the Pharisaic Judaism that dominated Jewish life in the postwar period. Luke wrote for a predominately Gentile audience eager to demonstrate that Christian beliefs in no way conflicted with their ability to serve as a good citizen of the Empire."---- https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/mmfour.html#:~:text=About 15 years after Mark,, for Quelle, meaning source.

It's unlikely that Matthew deliberately made up certain details of Jesus' life. Rather he was just recording (or perhaps cherrypicking?) details and stories that were passed down orally over the decades since Jesus' death, which likely included many legendary and fictional details that supported the belief in the divinity of Jesus. It doesn't take long for stories passed down by word of mouth to acquire things that never happened and are simply not true. One can see this by the many apocryphal writings about Jesus that were being circulated in the 1st century and were eventually rejected by the Church from the New Testament canon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_apocrypha
 
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Why would they want to make a religion up? I guess the Mormons have an incentive, because they get a planet each and a wife of their choice, most religions have got incentives, the early Christian religion had eternal life after Jesus said it... I see no motive at all. None of the disciples owned anything, they were hobos, early Christians were thrown to lions for fun, crucified etc. how can you see a motive? All I can see is truth, it must of been true.

Even Mohammad spoke highly Jesus as a prophet over 600 years after his death. The Jews have no temple now so no messiah. The God of the bible is real or He isn't.

If you are an atheist, which monotheistic religion sounds the most reasonable one to you?
The adherents of the new religion were trying hard to promote it and gain converts, right?

If that’s not a motive for making stories as compelling as possible, I don’t know what is.

The evangelists might have been motivated to embellished their accounts to strengthen the argument that the OT Messiah had actually arrived. This would have made it more convincing for Jewish potential converts, would it not?
 
Why would they want to make a religion up?
They were making sense of events.

Jesus thought he had been chosen by god to be the new king of Israel, overthrow Roman oppression and head up the new kingdom of god on earth.
After he was executed by Roman authorities, the followers of Jesus had to make sense of all that.
Matthew looked for evidence in the OT of the path that Jesus took.
Jesus was the Jewish Messiah of the line of David the greatest Israelite king of old but Jesus he had to die because he DID die.
The genealogy had to tie in.
Link to David.
Link to Bethlehem.
Young woman/ virgin.
Emmanuel.
It's all there and Matthew found it.
 
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"A period of forty years separates the death of Jesus from the writing of the first gospel. History offers us little direct evidence about the events of this period, but it does suggest that the early Christians were engaged in one of the most basic of human activities: story-telling. In the words of Mike White, "It appears that between the death of Jesus and the writing of the first gospel, Mark, that they clearly are telling stories. They're passing on the tradition of what happened to Jesus, what he stood for and what he did, orally, by telling it and retelling it. And in the process they are defining Jesus for themselves."
.....

I can't see a question there, but it was a well written post.
 
The adherents of the new religion were trying hard to promote it and gain converts, right?

If that’s not a motive for making stories as compelling as possible, I don’t know what is.

The evangelists might have been motivated to embellished their accounts to strengthen the argument that the OT Messiah had actually arrived. This would have made it more convincing for Jewish potential converts, would it not?
What would be "attractive" about starting a religion that would ostracize you from your current religion, even put you in direct conflict with your old religion, put your life at risk(still the same today) people must of heard about Jesus, some must of heard him speak, he must of inspired many(I mean He has inspired billions since and they didn't even know Him, not for self gain, or an easy life the opposite). You don't seem to get it, there is no advantage of following Jesus' teaching unless you truly believe they're true, and after reading through both testaments, it reads like one book. It is divine imo.

Matthew 7:13-14
 
Yet, we still have many religions around the world. What incentive did anyone have to make up a religion?
Excellent question.

Let's look at scientology...

What do scientologists believe. Scientologists believe that people are immortal alien beings (called thetans) who have forgotten their true nature and are trapped on earth in a human body. Scientologists believe that each thetan has lived numerous past lives, both on earth in our physical bodies, and on other planets.

Ron Hubbard(the founder) honoured the great religious leaders of the past for the wisdom they brought to the world, writing that Scientology shares “the goals set for Man by Christ, which are wisdom, good health and immortality.”

What is the ethics of Scientology?
In plain English, the purpose of Scientology ethics is to eliminate opponents, then eliminate people's interests in things other than Scientology. In this 'ethical' environment, Scientology would be able to impose its courses, philosophy, and 'justice system' – its so-called technology – onto society.

In the case of scientology it seems to be about control and a centralised power structure(something Christianity has turned in to).

It seems to be the case for just about all religions. The difference is the founder of said religion. I personally think there has been no greater example of a human being as Jesus, that's why I trust Him.

I'm don't adhere to any religion personally.
 
Why would they want to make a religion up?

-Money. Religious leaders are experts at separating people from their money.
-A sincere sense of doing good. If you really believe that your new religion will save people from hell, and only through believing will they go to paradise, surely it's a good thing to push your new religion as hard as you can.
-Personal reasons. Henry VII created a new religion because his old one wouldn't let him get a divorce from a wife he disliked.
-Theological reasons. Martin Luther created a new religion because he disagreed with Catholic doctrine.
-Political reasons. There are several branches of religion that have been modified to better align with a government (the Russian Orthodox Church for example.)
-Simple personal fame/greed. Scientology is a good example here.
people must of heard about Jesus
Sure. And they likely also heard about Abraham, and Mohamed, and Vishnu. But just because you've heard about them doesn't mean you are a believer.
and after reading through both testaments, it reads like one book.
Huh. I'd say they are VERY different. The first has a lot in it about all the things you should be put to death for. If men are gay, they must be put to death. (Not women, interestingly.) Having sex with your wife during her period - death. Cursing your parents - death. Working on the Sabbath, whenever you think that is - death.

The New Testament is all about forgiveness.

Even the Old Testament isn't very cohesive. Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 were two different stories that were 'grafted' together by early scholars; they came from the Egyptian and Mesopotamian creation stories respectively. They have a different order of creation, use a different word for God, different literary style (sonnets vs prose) and different narrative form (objective vs personal.) This was because they came from two different authors - the Yahwist author(s) and the Priestly author(s) - writing two different stories.
 
They were making sense of events.

Jesus thought he had been chosen by god to be the new king of Israel, overthrow Roman oppression and head up the new kingdom of god on earth.
After he was executed by Roman authorities, the followers of Jesus had to make sense of all that.

Jesus stated His kingdom was not of this world.

Matthew looked for evidence in the OT of the path that Jesus took.
Jesus was the Jewish Messiah of the line of David the greatest Israelite king of old but Jesus he had to die because he DID die.
The genealogy had to tie in.

Let me get this monkey off my back, I'm not Matthew's biggest fan so let's use Luke, who also did a genealogy. Jesus said He would die the disciples didn't believe Him, He prophesised His own death, how He would be betrayed, and how He would rise after 3 days. No one believed Him. But He did it, and the rest is history.

Link to David.
Link to Bethlehem.
Young woman/ virgin.
Emmanuel.
It's all there and Matthew found it.

Even if this was all false, it doesn't detract from the fact that Jesus did miracles, healed people basically had and showed the attributes of the Jewish God Yahweh.
 
Lots of examples of Gospel writers putting structure and history to verify the particular theology.
Matthew is a great place to start and you have found key examples.
All I see in the gospels is stories about Jesus, nothing about setting up a religion. Except maybe Jesus calling Simon/Peter His rock.
 
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