Jesus trial

[jcarl]

Re: Re: Re: Jesus trialQ

Originally posted by Flores
Brings back memory of the Egyptians that used to throw a perfect innocent virgin beautifull women to the crocodiles of the river Nile to please the Nile. Yeah, they too believed that without the innocent women death, the Nile is not going to save them.

Silly me was starting to believe that humans intelligence and morals have evolved.

You miss a couple of aspects of it. A) Jesus's sacrifice was a willing one, one done voluntarily. B) The virgin would not be perfect; I can guarantee you that she, just like everyone else, sinned. Thus, she wouldn't qualify as the redemption of the human race. C) The Nile did not create them. God created us. Of what relevance is that? When God created us, he gave us a free will to either choose him or not choose him; in essence, to not sin or to sin. God, being a faultless God, cannot and willnot tolerate sin. he separates himself from it. When Satan did it, he{God} cast him{Satan} out of heaven. When Adam and Eve did it, he kicked them out of Eden. So for us, the human race, we separated ourselves from eternal life with him. Now, God felt enough compassion/mercy for us to give us a way out. So, God came down incarnate in the form of Jesus Christ. From there, Christ died that he may become the bridge between a sinful man and a sinless man.

 

[Markx]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus trialQ

Originally posted by jcarl
You miss a couple of aspects of it. A) Jesus's sacrifice was a willing one, one done voluntarily. B).

My friend Jesus wasn't willing to die. This crucifixtion story is quite weak and full with controversies.

Please tell me, if he was willing to die and it was Voluntarily, then please explain the below.

Volunteer: A person who performs or offers to perform a service.

Look at the following and tell me where does it shows that he was a volunteer?

Willingness of Jesus Christ to Die for Our Sins:

Peter and the two sons of Zebedee were with Jesus Christ before the elders of the people and the chief priests came to take him to crucify him. Jesus at this point talked to Peter and the two sons of Zebedee as in Matthew 26:38

"Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me."

[Matthew 26:38]

Then Jesus went a little further way from them and prayed to God as in Matthew 26:39

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

[Matthew 26:39]

It is very clear from the above verse in Matthew 26:39 that Jesus had no intention of dying. In this verse it is shown that Jesus was praying strongly (Matthew mentions that Jesus repeated these prayer three time) to have this death removed from him. Had Jesus Christ been sent to be crucified he would not have hesitated to be killed at all. When I relate this to my Christian brothers, they tell me that this hesitation comes from the flesh side of him (in other words he was tempted), and that his soul which is godly does not have this hesitation at all. When we look at Matthew 26:38 we see that Jesus is contradicting this idea by saying,

"My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death."

[Matthew 26:38]

He himself says that it really his soul that is hesitating and not his body. These are Jesus' own words.

2. God Answered the prayers of Jesus Christ:

After Jesus made the above mentioned prayer he was answered by God according to Hebrews 5:7

"Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared."

These words clearly show that when Jesus was praying strongly to God, God would grant him his request. The word "heard in that he feared" (Hebrews 5:7) mean that God granted him what he requested. So the above verse shows that when Jesus asked of God to "let this cup pass from" (Matthew 26:39) him, God respond to his prayer and saved him from death or crucifixion.

 

[guthrie]

Or you could say that heard in what he feared means that he was heard by God. Why take Hebrews, a later book in the bible, over the four gospels? WHy not just accept that from teh point of view of a duty, it was one he wasnt necessarily wanting to do, yet as a duty, was a hard one.

But then, why has nobody disagreed with the suggestion that the whole set up was a show trial and lies, what with the trial by Pilate etc being unlikely to have happened?

 

[Flores]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus trialQ

Originally posted by jcarl
You miss a couple of aspects of it. A) Jesus's sacrifice was a willing one, one done voluntarily.

Yeah yeah...keep adding soap and lathering your spanking clean washed brain.

Jesus cried at the ninth hour, Jesus was frustrated with the people, Jesus said before he was crucified, "god forgive them for they don't know what they are doing". Read Markx post.

May god forgive you too, for you don't know what you are saying about Jesus.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus trialQ

Originally posted by Flores
Yeah yeah...keep adding soap and lathering your spanking clean washed brain.

Jesus cried at the ninth hour, Jesus was frustrated with the people, Jesus said before he was crucified, "god forgive them for they don't know what they are doing". Read Markx post.

May god forgive you too, for you don't know what you are saying about Jesus.

Well it's a good thing that we had a storm here yesterday and my phoneline went dead, otherwise I was going to post exactly the same thing!

Back in the day when I was a good Catholic, this came up for discussion. First, let me say that NOW I don't believe in the crucifixion or death of Jesus. But for the sake of the Xians on board, if we assume Jesus did make it to the cross, he was released immediately. But just for the sake of discussion Xian teachings, Jesus in his final hour felt abandoned by God. He cried, moaned, begged, sweated, and he gave up and said "it is finished." That doesn't sound too willing to me. Xians would like to believe Jesus died willingly for their sakes, but this just isn't true. Jesus was human, and he had human frailties. There are just too many ambiguous events at the crucifixion to warrant it as being the truth. Since Jesus wasn't on that cross, that's why Pilate had a sign made that said "INRI." Whoever WAS on that cross, that plackard represented the King of the Jews, because it wasn't Jesus on that cross. Secondly, the little speech Jesus made to John and his mother Mary, "John behold thy mother, woman behold thy son." Whoever was on the cross was admitting that he wasn't Jesus. Jesus would've had no reason to make that identification unless it wasn't himself on the cross. Then there's the whole Sabbath law thin--Friday night being the Sabbath and Jewish law would have forbidden a crucifixion at that time. Oh well, Jesus lived to tell this story to his grandkids, so there's no such thing as a "saved Xian." Sorry, people, but you're no more "saved" than Muslims, Jews, Gentiles, Pagans, Unitarians, Catholics, Copts, Flores or me.

 

[jcarl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus trialQ

Originally posted by Markx


Please tell me, if he was willing to die and it was Voluntarily, then please explain the below.

"Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me."

The human side of his soul is what he's talking about. He--as would anybody--was somewhat anxious about what he was about to go through.

Then Jesus went a little further way from them and prayed to God as in Matthew 26:39

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

Jesus knew full well what the death on the cross and the bearing the burden of sin would mean: the hiding of his Father's prescence. Knowing the complete cost, it went through with it.

It is very clear from the above verse in Matthew 26:39 that Jesus had no intention of dying. In this verse it is shown that Jesus was praying strongly (Matthew mentions that Jesus repeated these prayer three time) to have this death removed from him. Had Jesus Christ been sent to be crucified he would not have hesitated to be killed at all. When I relate this to my Christian brothers, they tell me that this hesitation comes from the flesh side of him (in other words he was tempted), and that his soul which is godly does not have this hesitation at all. When we look at Matthew 26:38 we see that Jesus is contradicting this idea by saying,

"My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death."

[Matthew 26:38]

He himself says that it really his soul that is hesitating and not his body. These are Jesus' own words.

The flesh in this context, pertains to anything of human nature. The soul has a human aspect to it. Yes, he was tempted many times, but he never gave into the temptation to do what he wasn't supposed to.

"Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared."

These words clearly show that when Jesus was praying strongly to God, God would grant him his request. The word "heard in that he feared" (Hebrews 5:7) mean that God granted him what he requested. So the above verse shows that when Jesus asked of God to "let this cup pass from" (Matthew 26:39) him, God respond to his prayer and saved him from death or crucifixion.

No. The literal translation of "to save him from death" is to save him out of death. Meaning he went through a physical death.


Also....if He wasn't voluntary in his death, then explain the following:
-why didn't he resist arrest or try to run away.
-why didn't he speak up for himself when he was being put on trial with illegal procedures
-why he kept his disciples at bay when he was being arrested.

 

[jcarl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus trialQ

Originally posted by Flores
Yeah yeah...keep adding soap and lathering your spanking clean washed brain.

Right you're attacking the person, not the idea, which really bother me in the grand scheme of things. But have you no better a retort than an attack on someone you don't even know?

Jesus cried at the ninth hour, Jesus was frustrated with the people, Jesus said before he was crucified, "god forgive them for they don't know what they are doing".

He said that on the cross...and it doesn't show frustration. It shows that he was willing to forgive those who had done him wrong.

May god forgive you too, for you don't know what you are saying about Jesus.

sigh....believe that if you wish.