Jesus or Burn?

Adstar said:
Yes i have lied. And i aknowledge that i sinned in doing so. Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

All thanks and Glory be to the God of Abraham for giving me the gift of salvation. Through His rightiousness i am saved and not through my own deeds. :D


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
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Adstar,

You are not chief.

You sound like a decent chap. Remember one thing, few know the truth.

If you have had an encounter with Jesus, then you do know the truth, but don't rely on one book.

In my opinion, the only part of the New Testament that is reliable is the Gospel of Luke.

But everyone experiences different journies, don't think about fire or heaven too much is my advice.
 
MacGyver1968 said:
Don't be sorry...she has lived a life of happiness with the never ending innocence of childhood. I envy her in some ways.

If you couldn't tell..i was raised in a very devout Southern Baptist home. At one point in my life I had some my doubts about my beliefs...i was just trying to ask some questions I never could get a square answer for from my dad (the religious leader of the family) or anyone else. These questions lead me to my current agnostic ways.
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Life is odd sometimes, I know what you mean how you envy her.

I was agnostic for a long time.
 
I guess the point I was trying to make with "Ka Ka" (she still can't say her name Karen) would she go to heaven if she died right now? 55 years old...but can't understand her need to have Christ save her....does she burn?
 
davewhite04 said:
Adstar,

You are not chief.

You sound like a decent chap. Remember one thing, few know the truth.
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You just told me in another thread that i had no humanity. and now you say i sound like a decent chap? Do you change your mind over things of God every few minutes too?

If you have had an encounter with Jesus, then you do know the truth, but don't rely on one book.
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The book is His Word. It is the truth.

In my opinion, the only part of the New Testament that is reliable is the Gospel of Luke.
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Then you don't know the truth.

But everyone experiences different journies, don't think about fire or heaven too much is my advice.
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Well i don't think of Heaven or the lake of fire when i am away from this forum. Seems to me that it is athiests who are fixated on the subject of the lake of fire. Every few days it seems they post a new thread about it.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Adstar said:
You just told me in another thread that i had no humanity. and now you say i sound like a decent chap? Do you change your mind over things of God every few minutes too?
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I didn't say you had no humanity, do not misquote me. I change my mind, it's a good habit.

The book is His Word. It is the truth.
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Do you know it was a bunch of pagans that started the ball rolling, ever since the chruch(mainly catholic) has been raining in money?

Then you don't know the truth.
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I never said I did.

Well i don't think of Heaven or the lake of fire when i am away from this forum. Seems to me that it is athiests who are fixated on the subject of the lake of fire. Every few days it seems they post a new thread about it.
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People are scared, believe it or not. The bible is a dangerous book.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

^^^^Do you know what that means?^^^^
 
davewhite04 said:
I didn't say you had no humanity, do not misquote me. I change my mind, it's a good habit.


Your quote Dave
Maybe Paul should have had an ounce of the humanity Jesus had/does, and maybe you should.
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Maybe i should have some humanity. meaning that i have no humanity and need to get some. Thats what you said you Liar.

Do you know it was a bunch of pagans that started the ball rolling, ever since the chruch(mainly catholic) has been raining in money?
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No it was the Holy Spirit that spoke through Paul. and it is the Word that Paul gave that reveals the lies of the catholic church and the other daughters of the harlot as false. Just as the Words of Jesus reveals the rebellion of those very same churches.



People are scared, believe it or not. The bible is a dangerous book.
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Yeah the bible is a serious book. and your fear reveals one who has not come to the fullness of the truth. Because those who are in fear have not yet accepted the Love of the truth. That is the atonment of the Messiah Jesus for their sins. I don't fear the lake of fire, those who believe in the love of the truth don't fear the lake of fire because the Love of the truth has removed all fear.

Those who seek to accept doctrines that teach that there is no lake of fire do so out of fear.

2 Timothy 1
7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

1John 4
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us :)



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
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Agreed Adstar, I made a mistake in my anger. I know you do have humanity and I guess it is wearing thin, like most. I worded my response wrongly.

I don't believe a word Paul said, for now. Maybe this will change in time.

The bible is a very serious book that is taking too seriously and is very often misunderstood, I have read it many times.
 
davewhite04 said:
Agreed Adstar, I made a mistake in my anger. I know you do have humanity and I guess it is wearing thin, like most. I worded my response wrongly.

I don't believe a word Paul said, for now. Maybe this will change in time.

.
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Paul may very well have been a constructed character created by an early conservative group of Christians. This person or people created more dogma and rhetoric than a group of modern day politicians.
For God to leave Pauls teachings as a literal truth for people to ponder and fight over for thousands of yrs and then hold them accountable to it would indicate God would be nothing more than a very flawed and limited being,which I personally don't believe is the case.

I'll go with the overall consensus of people that have claimed to have met Jesus or other religous figures thru NDEs. Apparently it seems God cares very little for man created religous idealogies and more about the spiritual nature of your heart/soul.
Evangelists hate any idea of universalism as it offends their bigoted nature to divide and separate people.Pauls' teachings give them all the fuel they need to feed the fire.

I believe the bible has spiritual truths but it's the often conflicting and idiotic commentary by it's authors that ruins it.
 
Adstar said:
Those who seek to accept doctrines that teach that there is no lake of fire do so out of fear.
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Those who would promote a lake of fire to generate fear do so as a result of zealotry and bigotry.
 
Medicine*Woman said:
*************
M*W: You've lost me here. "Immanuel" means "god is with us." "El" is the word for "god." "Manu" means "mankind," and "Im" denotes plural as in "many gods." So what does "Immanuel" mean to you?
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Let me look it up one more time.
From what I've read. "With us is God."
 
since the reformation all the churches have been backpedaling at a quite fenominal speed. It is now a god of the gaps because the modern day churches bend and change their religion in line with public opinion. It used to be Jesus or burn but now the churches are doing their best to get everybody to forget the existence of hell, the growing sceptical population suddenly begs the problem that the christian religion sentences 90% of the worlds inhabitance to eternal torture.
The christian religin is desperatly trying to give an all loving god who is flufy and forgiving. Jesus or Burn? was the rule implied at first but now it is more moderate, this however implies that god himself has changed his mind over the matter and this is aparently imposible so either the origional still stands and the church lies or god changed and therefore is weak
 
Changeling said:
Is the central, foundational tenet of Christianity "Accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior or you will go to hell"...in other words, "Jesus or burn"?
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Unless someone can come up with a convincing argument.. burn.
 
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(Q) said:
Those who would promote a lake of fire to generate fear do so as a result of zealotry and bigotry.
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Interesting:

I agree with you in the case of fire and brimstone preachers who preach it to their congregations. If one believes Jesus they are saved and they should have no fear of the lake of fire. If someone is trying to induce that fear within them then they are seeking to undermine their belief in Jesus.

So yeah i am dead against preaching fire and brimstone to the converted. Its wrong.

But those who do not believe Jesus should rightly be in great fear of the Lake of Fire. So a bit of fire and brimstone is ok as a last ditched attempt to motivate them to consider Jesus with a serious investigation.

Oh and there is nothing wrong with having great Zeal for the Word of God. Hate for others because they are different is also wrong.

Someone can give the message of the Lake of Fire to another without hating them often it is done in an attempt to bring them to be saved.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Applicable in the context of the variation on the theme

Nova900 said:

This seems to be more of a judgement based on morality rather than the "accept Jesus died for your sins or face eternal hell"...is there any scripture that has Jesus clearly stating "I came to atone for your sins" ?
I have found none.
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I think the passage is applicable in the context of the variation considered by Adstar and Jan Ardena. Additionally, I had conversation today with a Seventh-Day Adventist with whom I find myself in agreement more than one might expect. On this occasion, we were able to agree on a few points, among which one might be relevant: That belief in Jesus is more than just believing that He will save you, but rather demands certain conduct of the believer. Indeed, this theme is reinforced several times in the Gospels, perhaps most prominently in the Sermon on the Mount:

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


Thus, in terms of the topic post—

Changeling said:

Is the central, foundational tenet of Christianity "Accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior or you will go to hell"...in other words, "Jesus or burn"?
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—I would suggest that acceptance of Jesus includes reflections thereof in one's conduct. Plenty can "accept Jesus"; it is much more difficult to make that acceptance genuine. Damn that Original Sin ....
___________________

Notes:

Bible: Revised Standard Version. http://quod.lib.umich.edu/r/rsv/
 
Adstar said:
Interesting:

I agree with you in the case of fire and brimstone preachers who preach it to their congregations. If one believes Jesus they are saved and they should have no fear of the lake of fire. If someone is trying to induce that fear within them then they are seeking to undermine their belief in Jesus.

So yeah i am dead against preaching fire and brimstone to the converted. Its wrong.

But those who do not believe Jesus should rightly be in great fear of the Lake of Fire. So a bit of fire and brimstone is ok as a last ditched attempt to motivate them to consider Jesus with a serious investigation.

Oh and there is nothing wrong with having great Zeal for the Word of God. Hate for others because they are different is also wrong.

Someone can give the message of the Lake of Fire to another without hating them often it is done in an attempt to bring them to be saved.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
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Ad,
No offense meant, but Christians like you are the reason Christianity is losing popularity.
All you did was reiterate the point that Cybernetics is making above.
Christians are desparately trying to make god out to be benevolent and merciful when it's obvious that he's not.
And if he's not, then he really doesn't seem much different than the devil.
You even said it yourself, in the bold above, 'Choose Jesus as your savior or burn in hell'.
Most people who arent' spinless and scared, would be like, 'who wants to follow a god that tries to motivate his subjects with fear?'
 
Adstar said:
But those who do not believe Jesus should rightly be in great fear of the Lake of Fire. So a bit of fire and brimstone is ok as a last ditched attempt to motivate them to consider Jesus with a serious investigation.
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It always boggles my mind when people say things like this. How could a person who makes an honest mistake and believes in the wrong god (or no god), but who otherwise leads a good life possibly deserve eternal torture? It seems to fly in the face of the idea of a "just" god. It's one of the most unjust things I could ever imagine.

The fact that you have apparently managed to convince yourself that it can actually be "just" for good people to end up tortured eternally indicates to me that your belief in christianity has deeply twisted your mind. Anyone with even the tiniest sense of justice should be horrified at the idea of a god who condemns good-intentioned people to eternal torture for making an honest mistake in their religious beliefs.
 
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