Jesus mythology discussed here

I guess it just indicates the flimsiness of empiricism as applied to ancient history - since there is not much evidence to back many personalities 2000 years ago - there is probably no evidence of your great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandmother's aunt either - I guess that makes her a myth too ...
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M*W: Not necessarily so, my dear. I've traced my grandmothers back to 1858 Germany, but even that is recent. I can go farther back, all the way to Charlemagne, but there are no documents to prove it that I can actually get my hands on. But, then, my family was the descendants of the first French kings, so there should be some documented evidence, it just cannot be proven. Jesus, however, was the savior of the world, unlike my mortal family of questionable heritage. If I can find stones, steles and statues of my family, why isn't there any of Jesus' family? His family was world famous. My family was well beheaded in the French Revolution. You do the math. Jesus had no family because he didn't exist.

Now anyone in their right mind would realize that Jesus is the Sun and Mary Magdalene was the Constellation Virgo as was his mother Mary who delivered Jesus in the manger (the zodiac--a circle of animals) in Bethlehem--the House of Bread. After all, Jesus's body was 'the bread' and his blood was 'the wine.' It's no secret that he changed water into wine. Grapes need lots of rain to make the quality of grapes to ferment wine. Jesus is just another name for the Sun.
 
Please list these "few, if any," contemporary sources or evidence".
Flavius Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews is the only contemporary source which gives evidence showing Jesus' possible existence. Two passages speak of a Jewish preacher in Jerusalem who was executed by the Romans, by the name of Jesus.
However, it was just about the most common Jewish name in that period and region, so the person mentioned could have been just about anyone in the region who took up preaching as a profession.
It is not a direct proof of the biblical character's existence. Rather, it's evidence that the Jesus in the bible is based off of one or more historical figures.

Again, to which records are you referring?
The "gospels" weren't written until some 50 to 100 years after Jesus supposedly died. They're about as reliable a historical record as Homer's The Iliad.
 
Even Christian theologians generally regard the Josephus passage about "Jesus" as a forgery. The vernacular is different. I once read a theologian's critical review of Josephus that detailed the differences, but the source eludes me at this time. Search for threads by Iasion for a detailed list and the problems of so-called "historical" accounts of Jesus.
 
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M*W: Not necessarily so, my dear. I've traced my grandmothers back to 1858 Germany,
1858 AD or BC?



Now anyone in their right mind would realize that Jesus is the Sun and Mary Magdalene was the Constellation Virgo as was his mother Mary who delivered Jesus in the manger (the zodiac--a circle of animals) in Bethlehem--the House of Bread.
right mind?

After all, Jesus's body was 'the bread' and his blood was 'the wine.' It's no secret that he changed water into wine. Grapes need lots of rain to make the quality of grapes to ferment wine. Jesus is just another name for the Sun.
are you trying to pass this off as empirical fact or a tentative claim ... or something else?
:m:??
 
But how does their existence have anything to do with the alleged existence of Jesus? And where have I ever asserted their existence to begin with. This is a fallacy known as shifting the burden of proof.

Back on topic: Jesus Christ.

quite simply

If you assert that there is no empirical evidence for jesus, further investigation reveals that there is no empirical evidence for well over 99% of anyone else from the same time era

If you feel this is sufficient to classify jesus as a "mythical", it raises the problem how we should classify everyone else from the same time era who fulfills the same criteria (ie a lack of empirical evidence).
 
Please quote the post where I used the phrase "empirical evidence" with regard to any historical figure. If you're done with the straw man, can the topic continue?
 
Please quote the post where I used the phrase "empirical evidence" with regard to any historical figure. If you're done with the straw man, can the topic continue?
But since there's no evidence to support a physical person of the same name, he remains a myth.

Given that there is only a smattering of evidence to support a handful of physical people from the same era, it's not clear why jesus gets the "mythical status" by default - hardly a scientific classification
 
I wasn't aware that I was asserting that either did exist. Moreover, nothing I believe about the world depends upon their existence or non-existence.
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But I ask you: does the existence of Jesus depend upon the existence or non-existence of these two entities.
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But how does their existence have anything to do with the alleged existence of Jesus? And where have I ever asserted their existence to begin with. This is a fallacy known as shifting the burden of proof.

Back on topic: Jesus Christ.

Comparisons are common and vital to any investigation. Your statements represent a contradiction. No one is forcing you to believe in any historical figures if you do not really want to.

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Look at all the busts of the Roman emperors, Marc Antony, Cleopatra, Roman soldiers, even saints, but none that I've ever seen or heard about of Jesus and his immediate family! There will always be paintings but not from reality, so paintings don't count. Everything that depicts an image of Jesus is generally found in places of religious worship, but there is no known piece of sculpture depicting Jesus. Why?

Paintings are more realistic with the addition of shadows which add another dimension envisioned by the artist, enhancing the relationship of individual and creation. IF you mean why didn't Jesus sit in for a portrait by a Da Vinci caliber artist then the answer should be obvious.

You even answer the question yourself with the examples you cite.

Jesus inspired the most magnificent creations known to humanity, specifically artistic representations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Caravaggio.emmaus.750pix.jpg

This represents the artists interpretation of the entombment of Jesus. Some overemphasis of musculature is common. It is the subtleties of creation that are hardest to reproduce. The artist and his abilities can only come so close before the line between masterpiece and blank paper become blurred.

http://www.wga.hu/art/c/caravagg/07/37depos.jpg

http://www.clevelandart.org/museum/collect/highlights/high24.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_view_on_Jesus'_life

Can you explain your statement further? be specific.
 
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Paintings are more realistic with the addition of shadows which add another dimension envisioned by the artist, enhancing the relationship of individual and creation. IF you mean why didn't Jesus sit in for a portrait by a Da Vinci caliber artist then the answer should be obvious.
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M*W: I'm not sure I understand what you meant when you said 'adding shadows creates another dimension,' yes, I understand this, art is a combination of highlights and shadows. In art, let's say, paintings, there are no solid lines but highlights abutting shadows. But I still don't get your point in this discussion. What is the significance of your Art 101 instruction?

I wasn't really thinking along the lines of Jesus posing for a portrait, because if he was of the stature christians believe him to be, somebody out there would have created some art form of him somewhere. Yes, I know there are all kinds of pictures (not portraits) of Jesus and the Holy Family all over the world, but again, these weren't portraits just man-made images from the artist's mind or replicas from other artists' conceptions. That doesn't make these people real. In fact, since we discussing art here, where do you think the idea of Jesus and the Holy Family came from? It came from the other holy family of Isis, Osiris and Horus.

Just because there are a gazillion paintings of Jesus doesn't mean that he existed in reality. There are also paintings of dragons, unicorns and pixies.

It would be more believable if someone who had actually known Jesus personally would have drawn a stick figure of him. A Da Vinci-quality portrait wouldn't be absolute proof of Jesus's existence. Yet, as many paintings as Da Vinci did of Jesus and his peers, Da Vinci himself didn't believe in Jesus's existence! Why, then, did Da Vinci paint so many scenes of the Holy Family if he believed they didn't exist? I suppose therein lies the alleged code.

You even answer the question yourself with the examples you cite.
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M*W: Please enlighten me. What question did I answer?

Jesus inspired the most magnificent creations known to humanity, specifically artistic representations.
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M*W: Jesus didn't inspire anything. The inspiration came from within the psyche of the artist. The artists believed in him or they didn't. As with any product, its creator makes it saleable so the sheeple would buy it. It's nothing more than the economic factor of supply and demand. If I were a painter of art, I'd paint scenes of Jesus, too, because they would sell, so the artists who painted scenes of Jesus offer no proof of their reality.

This represents the artists interpretation of the entombment of Jesus. Some overemphasis of musculature is common. It is the subtleties of creation that are hardest to reproduce. The artist and his abilities can only come so close before the line between masterpiece and blank paper become blurred.

http://www.wga.hu/art/c/caravagg/07/37depos.jpg

http://www.clevelandart.org/museum/collect/highlights/high24.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_view_on_Jesus'_life

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M*W: I studied several paintings by Caravaggio, including his entombment. He portrays a darkness with his excessive use of shadow and minimal highlight. This is concurrent throughout all the paintings I studied (from the Internet). There is a morbidity portrayed in his work. I imagine Caravaggio to be depressed and forelorn. His work reminds me of El Greco in ways, although El Greco's work is more enigmatic, Caravaggio's work has a feeling of sadness throughout. He was an amazing artist in his own right, but I wouldn't claim him to be one of my favorites. Depressed people might take a liking to his techniques, though.

Can you explain your statement further? be specific.
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M*W: John, you've lost me again. I wish I was telepathic so I could understand what you are trying to say.
 
It would be more believable if someone who had actually known Jesus personally would have drawn a stick figure of him. A Da Vinci-quality portrait wouldn't be absolute proof of Jesus's existence. Yet, as many paintings as Da Vinci did of Jesus and his peers, Da Vinci himself didn't believe in Jesus's existence!

How do you know da Vinci did not believe in Jesus?

Any person interested in becoming an artist would have to study Christian art as far as classical\traditional artists go. Are you going to get upset about that and question the artists mental state? Like you did here:

I imagine Caravaggio to be depressed and forelorn.

I suppose therein lies the alleged code

Give me a break M*W.

Why, then, did Da Vinci paint so many scenes of the Holy Family if he believed they didn't exist? I suppose therein lies the alleged code

Don't you see that i already answered that? I said that ALL your examples are from elite class.

Look at all the busts of the Roman emperors, Marc Antony, Cleopatra, Roman soldiers, even saints, but none that I've ever seen or heard about of Jesus and his immediate family!

Show me an image of any common individual from that time period. How many people from that time period were drawn or had sculpture commissioned?

It would be more believable if someone who had actually known Jesus personally would have drawn a stick figure of him.

Even if there were an image you would not believe it anyway
 
There aren't any historical records of any of the messiahs of the time...so it makes sense that there wouldn't be any of Jesus...also the Jews who were against Jesus when Christianity first began never once said that Jesus didn't exist...I guess the great atheistic faith has people convinced that "Even though people almost never start following non-existent spiritual teachers, Jesus must have not existed"
 
How do you know da Vinci did not believe in Jesus?
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M*W: I've read about what a trickster da Vinci was. It's common knowledge that da Vinci ridiculed the RCC through his art.

Any person interested in becoming an artist would have to study Christian art as far as classical\traditional artists go. Are you going to get upset about that and question the artists mental state? Like you did here:
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M*W: I have studied christian art, but I'm not going to get upset about something that has no affect on me.

Give me a break M*W. Don't you see that i already answered that? I said that ALL your examples are from elite class.
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M*W: John, even though I read thoroughly what you write, I am missing something in the translation. What do you mean by my examples being from "elite class?"
Show me an image of any common individual from that time period. How many people from that time period were drawn or had sculpture commissioned?
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M*W: Are you saying that Jesus was a "common individual?" I would think that "common individuals" were not portrayed in art forms, only the emperical class.

Even if there were an image you would not believe it anyway
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M*W: "Images" are not real, so, no I would not believe in the reality of any image. That goes for ANY image, not just that of Jesus.
 
Hence, none of them probably existed.

Actually most historians agree that there were many messiah claimants at the time of Jesus, Jesus was just another one of them.....as for why Jesus wasn't recorded in history it's because historians at the time didn't really care nor pay attention to messiah claimants, they only cared about politics, kings, etc.....a historical record doesn't cause someone to exist.....this is the typical atheistic logic "evidence causes something to become true, even if it logically shouldn't be present"
 
Actually most historians agree that there were many messiah claimants at the time of Jesus, Jesus was just another one of them.....

Which historians, exactly? Who were the other messiahs?
 
...The "gospels" weren't written until some 50 to 100 years after Jesus supposedly died. They're about as reliable a historical record as Homer's The Iliad.

...he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/

http://www.request.org.uk/issues/evidence/evidence12.htm

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/kking/ntdocs.html

http://christopherbutler.wordpress.com/2006/04/06/a-survey-of-new-testament-documents/

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/bib-docu.html

http://www.iamnext.com/spirituality/NTrely.html

A final thought:

...if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up--if in fact the dead do not rise...if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

One must--objectively/"DILIGENTLY"--weigh the evidence and decide whether it is reasonable to believe. It's fair to say that it's quite reasonable to accept these documents at face value.

That said, like Paul says, if Christ hasn't Risen from the dead, then Paul and the rest are liars, worse yet, they were proclaiming something God did (supposedly raised Christ from the dead) when He didn't...and those who believe their lie? --> Of all men the most pitiable...On the other hand--

A general FYI: The original location/context of my earlier posts in this thread was actually the "Is Jehovah God?" thread... They were taken from that thread and placed here.
 
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Does it matter if Jesus existed or not? Those that belive, believe. Those that do not do not. I suggest reading the "Golden Bough". Also, some research on the cult of Mithras might be helpful to those seeking truth.
 
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