Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

[Greatest I am]

Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.

The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.

If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.

Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.

Jesus would not condone such a thing.

Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given.

To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.

This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane.

In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_fjBkwxc&feature=related

Regards
DL

 

[Believe]

Don't you get tired of this? Anyone reading this just google search this persons handle, you will find that he/she posts this garbage in as many forums (both religious and not) as he/she can just to get a rise out of people. Nothing but a jerk with no respect for the beliefs of his/her fellow man/women.

Whether you believe or not you don't have to be a dick about it, and most certainly should not be.

This person has nothing better to do with there time then harass others over the internet.

 

[Greatest I am]

Don't you get tired of this? Anyone reading this just google search this persons handle, you will find that he/she posts this garbage in as many forums (both religious and not) as he/she can just to get a rise out of people. Nothing but a jerk with no respect for the beliefs of his/her fellow man/women.

Whether you believe or not you don't have to be a dick about it, and most certainly should not be.

This person has nothing better to do with there time then harass others over the internet.

Thanks for showing that you have absolutely nothing to refute the premise and must lower yourself to speak only to the personal.

You and other pathetic peoples like you is why I do what I do.

It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists.
They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHaClUCw4&feature=PlayList&p=5123864A5243470E&index=0&playnext=1

They also do much harm to their own.

African witches and Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related

Jesus Camp 1of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBv8tv62yGM

Promoting death to Gays.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMw2Zg_BVzw&feature=related

For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

Regards
DL

 

[kx000]

Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

Great topic. Lie is a sin, if Jesus doesn't forgive he.. we are going to be very lonely in Heaven. Forgiveness is important. Fool me once.. however.

Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.

Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.

No man with sin on his soul will enter Heaven. I will forgive those who have wronged me if they ask. Forgive, don't forget.

To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.

Why do you use Christian un-knowledge? You clearly don't believe in religion.

 

[spidergoat]

...It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists.
They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil....

Then I'm confused. How do you arrive at your conceptions about God and Jesus if not for a sacred text?

 

[Greatest I am]

Great topic. Lie is a sin, if Jesus doesn't forgive he.. we are going to be very lonely in Heaven. Forgiveness is important.

Yes. To the victim.

No man with sin on his soul will enter Heaven. I will forgive those who have wronged me if they ask.

Yes, and ignore your God's will that all sins be forgiven.

Why do you use Christian un-knowledge? You clearly don't believe in religion.

I am a religionist so you are clearly wrong.

As a Gnostic Christian, I do what they have always done and use Christian works to show the error of Christian ways.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Then I'm confused. How do you arrive at your conceptions about God and Jesus if not for a sacred text?

My perception and belief in a Godhead comes from personal apotheosis. I have no proof to offer as is always the case in such.

I do not recognize any text as sacred. Nothing is sacred that has not been named so by men.

I do use the Christian text to seek better morals.
They are great for seeing what not to do even as Christians read them as what to do.

That is how they end in believing that a religion based on human sacrifice is moral when it is not.

Regards
DL

 

[kx000]

I am a religionist so you are clearly wrong.

As a Gnostic Christian, I do what they have always done and use Christian works to show the error of Christian ways.

Regards
DL

Im a little confused. Why am I wrong?

 

[spidergoat]

My perception and belief in a Godhead comes from personal apotheosis. I have no proof to offer as is always the case in such.

I do not recognize any text as sacred. Nothing is sacred that has not been named so by men.

I do use the Christian text to seek better morals.
They are great for seeing what not to do even as Christians read them as what to do.

That is how they end in believing that a religion based on human sacrifice is moral when it is not.

Regards
DL

So you aren't going to write down your account of this experience?

 

[Greatest I am]

Im a little confused. Why am I wrong?

How can I clearly not believe in religion when I am in one?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

So you aren't going to write down your account of this experience?

Happy to oblige when asked.

The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself a Gnostic Christian naturalist.
Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheeple where Gnostic Christians are goats.
This perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Regards
DL

 

[Balerion]

Just taking the the title of this thread at face value, I agree that the idea of vicarious redemption is a sinister one. In the Christian version of this, we see Jesus become a willing scapegoat. He hangs on a cross so that our sins may be forgiven.

There is no good explanation for why I am absolved for my wrongdoings by someone's else's death, Christ or no. And as someone who is wronged, I certainly would not want someone to grant forgiveness in my stead. If you step on my shoes, only I can forgive you. Not only would it not make sense for someone else to forgive you, but it becomes something of a sinister proposition. It makes the wronged something of a non-entity.

 

[Greatest I am]

Just taking the the title of this thread at face value, I agree that the idea of vicarious redemption is a sinister one. In the Christian version of this, we see Jesus become a willing scapegoat. He hangs on a cross so that our sins may be forgiven.

There is no good explanation for why I am absolved for my wrongdoings by someone's else's death, Christ or no. And as someone who is wronged, I certainly would not want someone to grant forgiveness in my stead. If you step on my shoes, only I can forgive you. Not only would it not make sense for someone else to forgive you, but it becomes something of a sinister proposition. It makes the wronged something of a non-entity.

Well put and exactly my point on the victim.

As to vicarious redemption.
The notion that killing an innocent man somehow absolves the guilty is insane.

Regards
DL

 

[NMSquirrel]

Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.

i believe this is where you got off..

sin does not need a victim..you are assuming two parties involved in the sin,sin does not need two ppl,

you can sin and the only 'victim' as you put it is yourself..

so jesus can forgive you because you cannot forgive yourself.

if you want to use the ten commandments as an example:
(only as an example because most religious believe it to be THE list of sins)

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'
THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

these are only to establish Gods authority, and it makes sense because if you listen to more than one God then things tend to get mixed up and as a result your own existence would be a mess..

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

(doesn't say you have to like them..)
but to do otherwise would corrupt your own soul..
or if you do not buy that argument..
your kids will see how you treat your parents and grow up believing this is how one should treat their parents thereby treating you like you have treated your parents..thereby you have only screwed yourself..

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

easily argued that this one has another person as victim, but..what does this do to the person who has commited murder?
have you ever commited murder? what do you think it would do to you if you did commit murder?wouldn't it change the way you viewed the life of another?
so again this screws with yourself..

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

same argument as with the murder..one you cross this line it changes the way you feel/treat about your spouse, again the victim is yourself, you would lose that which you loved

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

same concept again..you would corrupt your own soul, again making yourself the victim

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

this is a cross between the honor mother and father with others treating you the same way,and once you begin to lie about things, you would not be able to trust anyone. again making yourself the victim.

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbors.

they made this one more complex than it had to be..translated it just says be happy with what you have, do not worry about what you do not have...
and there is the self victimization..the worry about what you do not have..


granted i am not saying these do not have another person as victim as you put it, but trying to show that it does not require another person to be a sin..

 

[kx000]

How can I clearly not believe in religion when I am in one?

Regards
DL

You believe in religion? Why?

 

[Greatest I am]

You believe in religion? Why?

Religion serves a need for many.

I do not mind churches or religions as I have seen churches do what the state cannot or has not done within community and society.
I do dislike the way they teach of God though if they are literalists or fundamentals and stuck in fantasy, miracles and magic.

Have you ever read Plato?.

Basically, he and I see man as being made up of two natures. A political nature that looks after the character and needs of the body, and a spiritual soul nature that seeks the highest forms of what a good man and his political nature is forced to compromise on. Political man cannot turn off his spiritual nature when discussing politics just as our spiritual side cannot turn off our political side when discussing religion.

Both theology and philosophy, at the end of the day are the same.
Both work to develop the best set of rules and laws to live and love by.

Do you see that?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

i believe this is where you got off..

sin does not need a victim..you are assuming two parties involved in the sin,sin does not need two ppl,

you can sin and the only 'victim' as you put it is yourself..

Show an example or three on how one can sin against one's self please.

so jesus can forgive you because you cannot forgive yourself.

Not so. Assumption is not fact. Even the assumption that Jesus was real has yet to be proven. Have you never forgiven yourself any of your sins?

if you want to use the ten commandments as an example:
(only as an example because most religious believe it to be THE list of sins)

these are only to establish Gods authority, and it makes sense because if you listen to more than one God then things tend to get mixed up and as a result your own existence would be a mess..

Assumption and not fact.

Let's look again at your list.

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

Who of all the varieties of Gods, even in the myriade of Christian sects is (Me).

The one who allows for many wives or the one that insists on just one.

TheGod of sects that embrace Gays, or the God who says they are sinners?


TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

Yet Christianity is full of such. From the cross to the crèche, churches are full of carved images.


THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

What does that even mean?


FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

Again, we do not know what this means and lest we forget all the Christians who work as usual on Sunday. When is the sabbath day? Many think it is supposed to be Saturday.

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

Tell that to the children of all the deadbeat dads. Including Jesus himself as his own father abandoned him.

Tell that also to the relatively large number of Christian girls raped by their fathers while mothers turn a blind eye. They will tell you where to shove that commandment.


..

I could go on shredding your list but I think that if you are honest at all, you will do it yourself.
If you are not honest then you are not worth my time.

If they were good commandments and we are to emulate God, then he would not have broken so many of them himself. Including lying and murder.

Regards
DL

 

[kx000]

Religion serves a need for many.

I do not mind churches or religions as I have seen churches do what the state cannot or has not done within community and society.

Church lies, government lies. Point, please.

I do dislike the way they teach of God though if they are literalists or fundamentals and stuck in fantasy, miracles and magic.

They act as if they are not agnostic.

Have you ever read Plato?.

Basically, he and I see man as being made up of two natures. A political nature that looks after the character and needs of the body, and a spiritual soul nature that seeks the highest forms of what a good man and his political nature is forced to compromise on. Political man cannot turn off his spiritual nature when discussing politics just as our spiritual side cannot turn off our political side when discussing religion.

Both theology and philosophy, at the end of the day are the same.
Both work to develop the best set of rules and laws to live and love by.

Do you see that?

Yes, but that doesn't give me a full sense of why you believe in Christianity, especially when you spend the say scrutinizing it.

 

[NMSquirrel]

I could go on shredding your list but I think that if you are honest at all, you will do it yourself.
If you are not honest then you are not worth my time.

If they were good commandments and we are to emulate God, then he would not have broken so many of them himself. Including lying and murder.

Regards
DL

apparently you missed my point entirely..

you said to give you examples in the post that i gave you examples, then you proceeded to argue against the ten commandments instead of the points i made utilizing the ten commandments as examples..(and you even argued against the ones that i didn't spell out..)

and it is bad form to make a point in the OP about jesus then argue against someone else using jesus..ie "Assumption is not fact. Even the assumption that Jesus was real has yet to be proven. " was you intention to start sh*t or did you have a point to make in your OP? if so read my post again, cept this time understand what i am saying..

my point was that Sin does not need a victim..(using the term as another person)

you can sin and the only 'victim' as you put it is yourself..

give me a list of sins..and i will argue how the 'victim' as you put it, is yourself.

Honesty requires that you read my posts as intended,not as you want it to read..

 

[Greatest I am]

Yes, but that doesn't give me a full sense of why you believe in Christianity, especially when you spend the say scrutinizing it.

I do not believe in Christianity any more than I believe in any other religion based on fantasy, miracles and magic.

Christianity as believed by literalists and fundamentals is immoral because it is based on human sacrifice and a God that has his son murdered when there is absolutely no need for it.

Regards
DL