Japanese N-Plant Explosion

Well, your assumed "translation" is probably wrong, for starters. The original Ojibwe is not usually identified as the direct source of the English word, but rather the French mangling of it, in which the meaning was already lost. Further, "Big River" would be more accurately from "Gichi - ziibi" - you want "Great River", at least if the standard sources around here have it laid out right.
Yes. I meant great river, typed big river, knew it was wrong when I looked at it this morning, by which time you'd already replied to it.

oops, my bad.

The repetition of "river" in the root remains, but two languages back, and no longer in the content.
That's nice.

The official band name of the local Ojibwe, in English, is "The Mississippi River Band of Chippewa", btw. The name in their own language is " Gichi-ziibiwininiwag ", according to Wiki, with the "Gichi" part referring to the specific river. I've never heard them call themselves either one of those - Ojibwe is more common, and the rest in English - but "Mississippi River" is standard, as with all English speaking people.

Life's complicated, eh?
Again, that's nice. It falls under the categorie of "Because it's in teh common parlance doesn't make it correct" I also correct people I hear talking about PIN numbers, VIN numbers and Salsa sauce.
 
And in case you haven't figured it out yet, iceaura.

This:
...I paraphrased the comment to include it among the many here engaged in minimizing and dissembling the event...
Is what I was referring to when I said this:
Your efforts at trying to paint me as promulgating pro nuclear disinformation are frankly as laughable as your blatant mischaracterizations of my comments.

Because I recognized that this:
...I paraphrased the comment to include it among the many here engaged in minimizing and dissembling the event...
Was precisely what you were doing, and in doing so, you were mischaracterizing my post.
 
trippy said:
It falls under the categorie of "Because it's in teh common parlance doesn't make it correct"
The following is correct: the word "Mississippi" does not mean "Great River" or "Big River" or "anything River", in any language.

So "Mississsippi River" is not a "tautology", as you label things.
trippy said:
My statement that there is panic mongering going on does not imply that I don't think it's bad. That's your inference purely and simply, and we all know how you came to that conclusion, don't we.
I made no such inference, and came to no such conclusion.
trippy said:
You lumped me in with the pro nuclear apologists because you didn't think I was saying things are as bad as yout thought I should be,
I lumped your statements downplaying the explosion, etc, in with the others downplaying and minimizing all other threatening aspects of this event, because they fit right in - they were all evidence supporting my assertion, which was and remains that minimizing and reassuring (much of it invalid) have played a more important role than panic mongering in the public discussion.

So far, no takers on that.
trippy said:
The difference is that the failure of all three O-rings was a known, quantified risk, and they operated under conditions that they thought minimized those risks.
It was wrongly "known", badly misquantified, and - this is the key -> increasingly so as time went on and the erosions failed to produce disaster.

Instead of taking warning from the unexpected problems, they took comfort from the lack of dire consequences each time.

trippy said:
Meanwhile what just happened in Japan, is, as far as I know, without precedent. As far as I know, up until the other there was no physical evidence to support the idea of something of that magnitude occuring.
Earthquakes and tsunamis of all sizes are not unprecedented, and there is plenty of physical evidence of them having occasionally occurred in Japan. Surely the big ones in Alaska, right across the ocean involving the same plate etc, recently - since WWII and the invention of nuclear power - provided all the reminder necessary? if the big one that hit Kobe in the 60s was not enough, or the many preWar ones over history.

And if the possibility was overlooked, that doesn't change my argument at all - that is still evidence that the safety ascribed to nuclear power operations is not accurately assessed in general, and the arguments used to support the complacency are seriously and obviously flawed.
 
Meanwhile what just happened in Japan, is, as far as I know, without precedent. As far as I know, up until the other there was no physical evidence to support the idea of something of that magnitude occuring.

You'd have to be totally ignorant of Japan's seismic situation to say anything like that. Japan is well-known as one of the most earthquake-prone inhabited regions in the world - that's why they have all those crazy-strict building codes, with earthquake safety explicitly in mind. A magnitude 8.3 earthquake caused a tsunami to hit the northern coast of Japan (which is mercifully not so inhabited) as recently as 2006.

Any seismologist worth his salt has known, for decades, that earthquake/tsuanmi events like this in Japan are simply a matter of timing. See also: California.
 
Salsa sauce.
Salsa sauce???
Must be a NZ thing.:shrug:

We eat salsa here.

Preferably proceeded by "chips and..." by which we mean roughly triangular, hard-baked pieces of maize flour. These are also called "totopos."

How did this come from overheating Japanese nuke plants???:geek:

I don't know enough about the technical issues enough to make a relevant statement.
I'm glad I don't own a TV though, as worrying about this any more than I already am would just aggravate my innards.

Chances are, though, that while there's a very slim likelihood of a Chernobyl incident here, there won't actually be a meltdown...because there's a lot more people trying to stop it from occurring, and taking the whole thing very seriously...as well as a government aware of what's occurring.

That's my wild guess, delivered straight from my butt, via flying monkey courier.
 
Worst scenario it shouldn't be as bad as Chernobyl.
This design is much safer as it doesn't use graphite.
(as someone said earlier)
 
Salsa sauce???
Must be a NZ thing.:shrug:

We eat salsa here.

The worst part of it is that the word "salsa" literally means "sauce."

But, let's have some sympathy. Whatever it is that they're eating in places where "salsa sauce" is the used term, probably doesn't deserve to be recognized as "salsa" anyway.
 
The following is correct: the word "Mississippi" does not mean "Great River" or "Big River" or "anything River", in any language.

So "Mississsippi River" is not a "tautology", as you label things.
My interest in having this conversation with you is approximately 0, I have no reason to accept your word for it over anything else I have read, and I have no reason to pursue this further with you here, or on the linguistics board.

I made no such inference, and came to no such conclusion.
Yes you did, by virtue of this statement.
I lumped your statements downplaying the explosion, etc, in with the others downplaying and minimizing all other threatening aspects of this event, because they fit right in - they were all evidence supporting my assertion, which was and remains that minimizing and reassuring (much of it invalid) have played a more important role than panic mongering in the public discussion.

It was wrongly "known", badly misquantified, and - this is the key -> increasingly so as time went on and the erosions failed to produce disaster.

Instead of taking warning from the unexpected problems, they took comfort from the lack of dire consequences each time.
And?
It was still a known risk.
I only said it had been quantified, not that it had been quantified correctly, in fact it wasn't that long ago that I stated that engineers had quantified it wrongly.

Earthquakes and tsunamis of all sizes are not unprecedented, and there is plenty of physical evidence of them having occasionally occurred in Japan.
But that isn't what I said, was it.
I will grant you that it might have been a reasonable inference though - even if it does contradict what I've said elsewhere in this thread.
There was supposed to be a caveat in that sentence limiting the scope (or it should have been implicit) to a regional one, rather than being a national statement.

There is evidence for three tsunami deposits in the last 3,000 years on the Sendai plains, the most recent one being 869 AD, with a height of that Tsunami was around 2m. And yes, there is evidence for Much larger Tsunamis elsewhere in Japan, but then again, the Tsunami that was 10m in Sendai was <2 in other partd of the Japanese pacific coast.

Tell me, are houses in Minnesota built to the Californian building code?

Surely the big ones in Alaska, right across the ocean involving the same plate etc, recently - since WWII and the invention of nuclear power - provided all the reminder necessary? if the big one that hit Kobe in the 60s was not enough, or the many preWar ones over history.
The Aleutian eartquakes and Tsunamis, and the 1869 Sanriku earthquake involve (potentially) different mechanisms from what you expect even from a megathrust. Kobe was also a different mechanism.

And if the possibility was overlooked, that doesn't change my argument at all - that is still evidence that the safety ascribed to nuclear power operations is not accurately assessed in general, and the arguments used to support the complacency are seriously and obviously flawed.
So once again we come back to your point that you think that the power industry should build to a standard where if something that happens that we have no reason to suspect can happen or will happen, happens it will survive?

In 2007, it was estimated that there was a 99% chance of an M[sub]w[/sub]8.1-8.3 earthquake occuring in the next 30 years.

Where do you draw the line iceaura?
1 in 100 years? I live within cooey of a major faultline that has a reccurrence period of 160 years.
1 in 1000 years? Banqiao dam was built to this standard, and it still failed. Tsunamis are estimated to inundate the Sendai plains once every 1100 years.
1 in 2000 years? It's estimated that the Aleutian Islands earthquake was a 1 in 2000 year event because of the type of earthquake it involves. The storm that caused the Banqiao dam to fail was a 1 in 2000 year event.
1 in 15,000 years? Siesmologists estimate it's been at least 15,000 years since the greendale fault ruptured.
 
Last edited:
You'd have to be totally ignorant of Japan's seismic situation to say anything like that. Japan is well-known as one of the most earthquake-prone inhabited regions in the world - that's why they have all those crazy-strict building codes, with earthquake safety explicitly in mind. A magnitude 8.3 earthquake caused a tsunami to hit the northern coast of Japan (which is mercifully not so inhabited) as recently as 2006.

Any seismologist worth his salt has known, for decades, that earthquake/tsuanmi events like this in Japan are simply a matter of timing. See also: California.

Bull shit.

See my subsequent post to Ice, and feel free to misconstrue it as you see fit.
 
Salsa sauce???
Must be a NZ thing.:shrug:

We eat salsa here.
Nope, it's more widespread than that.

The worst part of it is that the word "salsa" literally means "sauce."

But, let's have some sympathy. Whatever it is that they're eating in places where "salsa sauce" is the used term, probably doesn't deserve to be recognized as "salsa" anyway.
Hence it being among the Tautologies I listed that annoy me.
 
Trippy said:
Meanwhile what just happened in Japan, is, as far as I know, without precedent. As far as I know, up until the other there was no physical evidence to support the idea of something of that magnitude occuring.

Therein lies the difference. In respect of Challenger, they knew it was a possibility, in respect of a Tsunami of that magnitude, they had no reason to consider it a possibility.
Japan is one of the most earthquake prone countries on the planet and tsunamis are not uncommon there.

This is something they have drills for and plan their buildings around.

They had every reason to consider it a possibility, hence the overly strict building standards and raised roads throughout the countryside. Hence the alarms and why they constantly have tsunami drills that has the whole population learning to move to ground higher than 10m. Don't forget, Japan gets at least one tsunami a year.

This may have been their big one. Or it may not have been.

But keep in mind, this wasn't even Japan's biggest ever tsunami. I think the biggest one they have had was just over 56ft in 1498. In 1952, they had a 30m high tsunami.

So they had every reason to consider it a possibility because they have had much bigger ones in the past.
 
Last edited:
Plains that get inundated by tsunami with an expected frequency of 160 years, are not places that I would site nuclear power plants.

Thanks for pointing that out - it was a typo, it should have read 1100 years - hence it being listed in the "1 in 1000 year" category.
 
Thanks for pointing that out - it was a typo, it should have read 1100 years - hence it being listed in the "1 in 1000 year" category.

It seems that the 1-in-1000 years planning guideline was insufficient, then, given the actual outcome.

The thing about planning around the timing of major geological catastrophies is that such is very difficult to predict. The big one could take out LA tomorrow, or not for another 500 years (which is presumably outside the operating lifetime of whatever power plant, or even many current power technologies). How are you supposed to plan around that? If you can't, how can you claim any real surety in the margin of safety?
 
The worst part of it is that the word "salsa" literally means "sauce."

Yes, that's why I've never heard it referred to as salsa sauce. It's Texas here. We may be crazy as bedbugs, but we don't eat salsa sauce.

But, let's have some sympathy. Whatever it is that they're eating in places where "salsa sauce" is the used term, probably doesn't deserve to be recognized as "salsa" anyway.
*Nods*. Damn straight. If it doesn't prickle your scalp it's not any good.
Edited to add-I'd probably consider it Marinara if it's a tomato-based salsa.

Thanks for pointing that out - it was a typo, it should have read 1100 years - hence it being listed in the "1 in 1000 year" category.

Funny that...we keep having those 1000-year flooding events every ten years here...
But flooding frequency due to weather and seismic activity are unrelated.

The big one could take out LA tomorrow, or not for another 500 years (which is presumably outside the operating lifetime of whatever power plant, or even many current power technologies). How are you supposed to plan around that? If you can't, how can you claim any real surety in the margin of safety?

Being the cautious pessimist I am...I say assume it WILL happen, not that it may. Don't gamble lives and landscape on best-case scenarios. (But is anybody gonna listen to me? noooo...)
 
Last edited:
:Face palm:
Et tu Bells? I've already clarified this point.
Japan is one of the most earthquake prone countries on the planet and tsunamis are not uncommon there.
Not what I actually said though, is it.

Yes, and nothing I've said suggests otherwise. It's also something they design their Nuke Reactors around.

They had every reason to consider it a possibility, hence the overly strict building standards and raised roads throughout the countryside. Hence the alarms and why they constantly have tsunami drills that has the whole population learning to move to ground higher than 10m. Don't forget, Japan gets at least one tsunami a year.
Come now. Surely you've read ahead by now? So I'm going to let this one go.
I didn't say Tsunamis don't happen.


This may have been their big one. Or it may not have been.

But keep in mind, this wasn't even Japan's biggest ever tsunami. I think the biggest one they have had was just over 56ft in 1498.
In a different part of the country, in a different geological setting.
My understanding is that the Meio Nankai Tsunami was <10m.
My understanding is that they average one Tsunami every 6 ot 7 years.
Nankai gets hit by a Megathrust Earthquake every 100 to 150 years.
And no, the highest tsunami in Japan was actually a small megatsunami in 1792 that was caused by the collapse of the side of a volcanooe (Mount Unzen) and it had a height of 100m.

So they had every reason to consider it a possibility because they have had much bigger ones in the past.
Once again, in a different part of the country, in a different geological setting.

Addendum:
Allow me to reiterate this points to you Bells.
In three thousand years, there have been three tsunamis that have inundated the Sendai plains, the most recent of which was only 2m.
Meanwhile, they were expecting a M8.1-8.3 shake, not an M9.
 
Last edited:
It seems that the 1-in-1000 years planning guideline was insufficient, then, given the actual outcome.

The thing about planning around the timing of major geological catastrophies is that such is very difficult to predict. The big one could take out LA tomorrow, or not for another 500 years (which is presumably outside the operating lifetime of whatever power plant, or even many current power technologies). How are you supposed to plan around that? If you can't, how can you claim any real surety in the margin of safety?
Because knowing that something occurs once every 1000 years, and knowing that you power plant is expected to have a 40 year lifetime lets you calculate the probability of that event occuring within that plants lifetime. This gives you, when you weigh it against the probable outcomes of that event occuring, mitigation measures can be put in place to reduce the risks to acceptable levels.
 
This was posted about an hour ago:

http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/tre72a0ss-us-japan-quake/

Dunno if anybody'd linked it yet-explosion in #2 reactor...

But I thought Chernobyl had a containment vessel that cracked open??? apparently not:

"This is nothing like a Chernobyl," said Murray Jennex, a nuclear expert at San Diego State University. "At Chernobyl you had no containment structure -- when it blew, it blew everything straight out into the atmosphere."
So I find that a whole lot more reassuring.
 
This was posted about an hour ago:

http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/tre72a0ss-us-japan-quake/

Dunno if anybody'd linked it yet-explosion in #2 reactor...

But I thought Chernobyl had a containment vessel that cracked open??? apparently not:


So I find that a whole lot more reassuring.

Yeah, the RBMK design lacked any containment:
rbmk.gif

rbmk.gif

chernowreck2.gif
 
:Face palm:
Et tu Bells? I've already clarified this point.
After I had posted...

:)


Update



A FIRE has broken out at the number-four reactor at the quake-hit Fukushima No.1 atomic power plant and radiation levels have risen considerably, Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan says.

Mr Kan has told people within 30km of troubled nuclear power plant to stay indoors.

Radiation is spewing from damaged reactors at a crippled nuclear power plant in tsunami-ravaged northeastern Japan in a dramatic escalation of the four-day-old catastrophe.

The prime minister has warned residents to stay inside or risk getting radiation sickness.

A government spokesman said radiation emanating from the plant today is high enough in nearby areas to damage health.

(Source)

I believe this is on top of the explosion earlier this morning.
 
Back
Top