James Randi

[Persol]

Originally posted by Ertai
But People who dont know much about it inicially claim that there is no scientific research... not quite
And at the same time, people who claim to know much show that they don't when they list a bunch of the aforementioned flim flam sites.

Well at least you must understand that indeed scientific data as been produced, and yes we have many labs with ongoing experiments
Define many. To me that means more then 50 (considering the number of labs in the US alone). You yourself have been unable to list credible labs... and you claim to be part of the believers group.

The problem here is to get real good hard data (already done, but for pratical uses we need more)
Pleas eshow us this real good hard data. I think you look slightly stupid when you claim fantastic things which you can not backup.

And there is many good data to say that the understanding of ESP phenomena will probably have a good future
I am willing to bet that for every 1 legit source you quote supporting ESP I can quote 5 disproving it.

For example, today a study regarding the dreams of blind people since birth as revealed that they imagine colors and image forms
I'd like to see a link to this study, as you are most likely misinterpretting it.

Its a good start for hipotesis on some kind of Genetic Data Banks that are stored in our brains since we were in the uterus. It suggests that there is a bank of visual memory that actually was never adquired thru normal means (eyes)
You make it sound like genetic memory. It could simply be that our brains were built around seeing certain shapes, so it does.


In short:
please link to the ESP studies that demonstrate it
please list some legit labs which are more than websites
please give a link to this blind sight research

 

[James R]

Ertai:

<i>Ah! Finnaly I notice some belief in you</i>

Don't jump the gun. I haven't said I believe in anything to do with ESP and the like. All I've said was that there a few experiments which deserve further attention.

 

[Ertai]

I was just kidding with you anyway

Well Check out this news on CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/07/21/secret.saic.ap/index.html

So after reading that article, its from yesterday..

Quote here: "With 40,000 employees worldwide, San Diego-based SAIC is enmeshed in some of the government's most sensitive work, from redesigning Army combat systems to bioweapons defense and improving electronic snooping for the ultra-secretive National Security Agency. "

So for Skinwalker and James R.

Cognitive Sciences Lab at SAIC
is the most important Remote Viewing and other related ESP Labs after SRI

So I believe you skeptics still will say that its a not serious research institute... well... its the Biggest contractor for the government, the reason why it involved Remote viewing since the 70s

So here it is.. probably the biggest Laboratory in USA regarding funds, people, etc.. and very low profile actually has a research team for ESP !

Maybe that "little little serious research on ESP" as James Said is actually more than little..

Now that was an interesting coincidence on the CNN news
Now at least SAIC is more known to americans, and the skeptics wont dismiss it as a funky para research lab or something..

Cya

 

[phlogistician]

Originally posted by Ertai
[Cognitive Sciences Lab at SAIC ...
its the Biggest contractor for the government, the reason why it involved Remote viewing since the 70s

IIRC, the ESP and 'remote viewing' experiments were conducted during the cold war, and after failing to provide usable results, abandoned. Just because a large govt organisation investigated these supposed powers, doesn't mean they exist.

I'll go dig up some sources to verify this position. Like most things cold war though, the story was probably leaked so the USSR would waste time and money doing their own research. It's budget attrition. Encourage your enemy to waste loads of money on fruitless exercises. The USSR got the USA to do it with SDI!

 

[phlogistician]

Ah, what do you know, a quick peek at FAS yields results ( I must be psychic to have known to look there!)

http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/stargate.htm

Odd that the main organisers of this waste of taxpayers money were Scientologists eh? Perhaps not. I'll refrain from saying any more lest their lawyers wade in.

And just as predicted, that article states that the US remote viewing effot was in response to an alleged Soviet effort, and the US then went and spent $20,000,000 investigating, only to have the results ultimately debunked and the project closed.

 

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by Ertai
I was just kidding with you anyway

Well Check out this news on CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/07/21/secret.saic.ap/index.html

So after reading that article, its from yesterday..

Quote here: "With 40,000 employees worldwide, San Diego-based SAIC is enmeshed in some of the government's most sensitive work, from redesigning Army combat systems to bioweapons defense and improving electronic snooping for the ultra-secretive National Security Agency. "

So for Skinwalker and James R.

Cognitive Sciences Lab at SAIC
is the most important Remote Viewing and other related ESP Labs after SRI

WTF? You got that from reading about a defense contractor? That article never mentioned Cognitive Sciences Lab at all. What's the relevance?

Originally posted by Ertai
So I believe you skeptics still will say that its a not serious research institute... well... its the Biggest contractor for the government, the reason why it involved Remote viewing since the 70s

It's been involved in Remote Viewing since the 70's because they discovered a lucrative method of fleecing money from believers. The Cognitive Sciences Lab is nothing more than a public relations mill for their books sales and probably "classes" that people can take to learn to "focus their energies," etc.

Poppycock.

If there was anything to this "psi" stuff, you wouldn't have to reach for straws.... It would be mainstream by now!

 

[Halcyon]

Ertai, I admire you. After I post something once, I don't have the patience to keep refering people to the lists of websites books and scientific abstracts already posted in other threads, and I certainly don't have the patience to pay attention to these guys that keep posting while ignoring what's already been said. *sigh*

People keep thinking that just because they don't see much of it here(Need to open their eyes a bit more) that this stuff is non existant. I remember one post up there in which this guy's whole argument against psi is because it should be in the mainstream, and he doesn't even know that it is. It's been in the mainstream for over 60 years. Just not the "american" mainstream. And obviously, because it's not common knowledge to us, it must not have merit, because we know everything there is to know about everything worth knowing about, being the super power that we are, right? God. This research is not something that America ever had any claim to, and people aren't that friendly with sharing as they used to be.

Man, Bulgaria itself at only one point in it's history has made valid the entire claim of PSI existance. They have had the worlds only government supported prophet, kept by the government, who had an entire team of scientists from every field of science to evaluate her and document every aspect of every day of her life, completely controlled until her death. Her predictions proved over 80 percent accurate over this period, more than the 70 percent required for science to accept it, all under completely controlled conditions, and ultimately repeatable(Every day of her life).

 

[Halcyon]

Originally posted by phlogistician

And just as predicted, that article states that the US remote viewing effot was in response to an alleged Soviet effort, and the US then went and spent $20,000,000 investigating, only to have the results ultimately debunked and the project closed.

God, scientologists disgust me, too.

About operation Stargate, the results were never, at any point in history, debunked. By debunk, I mean proven false, not "people saying that it's false by their own interpretations." People(public) misconstrued and took out of context many of the fiindings(Both to use for and aginst the subject of RV). Read the reports themselves, not what people say about them.

 

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by Halcyon
I don't have the patience to keep refering people to the lists of websites books and scientific abstracts already posted in other threads,

None of these appeared valid or current. Nearly every single piece of "evidence" you cited was from the 1960's Cold War era. I'm convinced that you found one source of information and merely copied it's bibliography to these threads without actually looking any of the citations up yourself. If you have them, scan a couple and post them. They certainly aren't accessible to me, which is telling because references that are worthy stay accessible.

Originally posted by Halcyon
and I certainly don't have the patience to pay attention to these guys that keep posting while ignoring what's already been said.

You've actually been ignoring what's been said as well.

Originally posted by Halcyon
It's been in the mainstream for over 60 years. Just not the "[A]merican" mainstream.

If it was so mainstream in the Eastern Bloc (former), why did the Russian Academy of Sciences at Moscow State University organize a symposium called "Science, Antiscience and Paranormal Beliefs" in Moscow, October 5, 2001? The focus of this symposium was "to resist the unprecedented expansion of false science, paranormal beliefs, and new forms of irrationalism into Russian culture at the end of the twentieth and beginning of the twenty-first centuries."

In this symposium, it was agreed that: "today this organized false science has become a pwerful, immoral, and criminal force. Pseudosceince and charlatanism affect even the highest echelons of state institutions, becomeing a parasite on the budget of science, which is already poor."

Paul Kurtz, the chairman of a Russian Academy of Sciences Conference that dealt with similar issues writes that "Russian scientists at the conference complained about the growth of astrology, psychic phenomena, UFOlogy, and alternative medicine, but until now they said they did not have th proper tools or the information with which to criticize the topics."

Edward Kruglyakov, the conference's co-chairman described how, through the years of the Soviet control of Russia until now, "bad science" has crept into the highest reaches of Russian government: "In the Ministry of Emergency Measures, a laboratory of "extrasenses" was arranged, and though no results have been reported yet, the laboratory nevertheless exists and is financially supported."

Also, "at the Ministry of Defense, a military astrologer is emplyed. In addition, the Ministry has created a specialized military unit manned with psychics and others who claim special powers. Their research is conducted secretly. Such sensliss secrecy is advantageous only to dishonest officials. It raises the possibility of corruption and the absence of outside review and control."

Each of these are examples of how pseudoscience, antiscience and just plain "bad" science have crept into government because of the ignorance of officials. Government positions are filled with the same species as the ones that fill the lower ranks of society... they have the same capacity for belief and deception as Ertai and Halcyon.

None of the citations that Halcyon gave was from a legitimate or verifiable source of "psi" or "paranormal" research that has repeatable results. As such, none of those references lend any credibility to his claims. If this assumption is wrong, scan a copy (your local library can help if you have no access to such devices, or perhaps you have friends) and post it here. I think that the only thing you can scan is the original work which used those citations in it's bibliography.

Originally posted by Halcyon
And obviously, because it's not common knowledge to us,

Its not common knowledge to anyone. If so, explain the methodology or statistical models that any one of those references used.

Originally posted by Halcyon
it must not have merit, because we know everything there is to know about everything worth knowing about, being the super power that we are, right?

That would be an example of using false dichotomy in an argument. The comment deserves no further discussion.

Originally posted by Halcyon
Her predictions proved over 80 percent accurate over this period, more than the 70 percent required for science to accept it, all under completely controlled conditions, and ultimately repeatable(Every day of her life).

I don't believe you. I think you are either lying about this claim or retelling the lie of another.

 

[Ertai]

SkinWalker Arent you wasting too much time on this? If your a non-believer... oh well

Anyway... Im just replying here for all skeptics to check this..

This regards to Remote Viewing projects from the CIA after the Coldwar was over.. And used for anti-terrorism

Coldwar OVER... did you read that Skinwalker? RV was used mainly on the 80s and from 1990 to 95..

So at least read this news, Its date is: 20 July 2003
And it refers to use of RV in 1991

This info as been declassified just some months ago... All that AIR report saying Remote Viewing had no uses was based on 5% or less of the material DIA/CIA had regarding to RV sessions..

At least you will know today and in the next year that there is plenty of evidence that Remote Viewing was Effective

Have a look at the news, 20 july 2003:

http://www.sundayherald.com/35426

 

[Halcyon]

Okay, about that conference. These things have a long history over there of being orchestrated as favors, by demands from others in power, like political pressure. I'm not saying that this is the case, but the history of these things needs to be taken into consideration.

As for your remark concerning Bulgaria: She was a blind woman by the name of Vanga Dimitrova. She lived in Petrich. A committee was formed of 30 scientists and a salary of of about 200 dollars a month(equivalent) was given to her to be retained by the scientists for study. There are Institues of Suggestology and Parapsychology in Sofia(the nation's capitol) and Petrich, both were headed by Dr. Georgi Lozanov, who was also the spokesman for both institutes undertook many of the investigations personally. It's all in the proud history of this country. I am not a liar, and your blatant ill-concieved attack on my credibility was unfounded.

If it'll take scans of these documents to convince, then I will find a way to do so. I obviously can do no such thing at work, but I'm sure I can find a way.

Your comment on my sources not "appearing" valid is immediately discounted. By looking at the titles and seeing the dates, you are not in a position to judge the validity of said references. "references that are worthy stay accessible," is also an opinion halfway to fallacy.

But if it's scans you want, I'll find a way to do it.

 

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by Ertai
SkinWalker Arent you wasting too much time on this? If your a non-believer...

And therein lies the problem. "Belief." I'm an Anthropology major, so why people believe is a fascinating subject to me. In fact, I'm thinking of writing a paper on it. So the time here might be well spent

Originally posted by Ertai
So at least read this news, Its date is: 20 July 2003
And it refers to use of RV in 1991

This info as been declassified just some months ago... All that AIR report saying Remote Viewing had no uses was based on 5% or less of the material DIA/CIA had regarding to RV sessions..

http://www.sundayherald.com/35426

And within this secondary news report, which didn't list a researchable citation (not that they are required to or that one wasn't available) we find this tidbit:

“Something is political, dizzy, confused, stuffy, lunatic, nervous and colourful. I keep seeing a small blue spot of light and three shapes. One of the three shapes seems to be more important than the others.”

With psychics of this quality, it's no wonder they shut the program down

 

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by Halcyon
Okay, about that conference. These things have a long history over there of being orchestrated as favors, by demands from others in power, like political pressure. I'm not saying that this is the case, but the history of these things needs to be taken into consideration.

The history does, indeed, need to be considered. Throughout history, world leaders kept oracles, soothsayers, astrologers, alchemists, and others of claim to various paranormal abilities. Modern history should be no different, as it is the human condition to want to believe in things greater than us.

Originally posted by Halcyon
As for your remark concerning Bulgaria: She was a blind woman by the name of Vanga Dimitrova. She lived in Petrich. A committee was formed of 30 scientists and a salary of of about 200 dollars a month(equivalent) was given to her to be retained by the scientists for study. There are Institues of Suggestology and Parapsychology in Sofia(the nation's capitol) and Petrich, both were headed by Dr. Georgi Lozanov, who was also the spokesman for both institutes undertook many of the investigations personally.

I did search Ebsco and MedLine for a reference to Dimitrova, but found nothing. Google had a couple pages worth, though nothing that was very useful. I do note that she was mentioned in a book by the title, The Secret History of America's Psychic Spies by Jim Schnabel. Unfortunately, such books are pseudoscientific and have little credibility themselves. Fiction that touts itself as fact has always sold well... the National Enquirer does it on a weekly basis. I think this is actually one of the two books I read on the subject several years ago, as Dimitrova's story is vaguely familiar to me.

Originally posted by Halcyon
I am not a liar, and your blatant ill-concieved attack on my credibility was unfounded.

My intent was not to attack you, but rather to point out that anecdotal claims are abundant in the field of the "paranormal" and are nearly always complete fabrications. If Lozanov tested Dimitrova, he (Lozanov) did not write a paper on it. I did, however find the following in Ebsco:

Author(s): Abdallakh, Abdel A._
Title: Vanga Dimitrova's political predictions.
Source: PSI Research Vol 2(2), Jun 1983, 15-19.

Abstract:
The author, a Lebanese journalist, describes in anecdotal form the predictions made by the Bulgarian clairvoyant, V. Dimitrova, concerning the political situation in Lebanon and Syria. It is noted that Dimitrova's abilities have been recognized by the Bulgarian government. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2002 APA, all rights reserved):

I bolded the two main problems with this piece: first, journalists are sensationalists when it comes to the paranormal (though some do appear unbiased at times); second, anecdotal claims are just that. Anecdotal.

Originally posted by Halcyon
Your comment on my sources not "appearing" valid is immediately discounted. By looking at the titles and seeing the dates, you are not in a position to judge the validity of said references.

I used the word "valid" in the sense of still acceptable or unexpired. If the work was pseudoscientific to begin with, and the methodology incomplete or insufficient, and if the results cannot be repeated by others, then the work is invalid... regardless of how much exists. If the literature cannot be accessed, the methodology cannot be examined, and the results cannot be attempted by others. Therefore, the literature itself becomes invalid.

I don't see why I cannot be in a position to judge a source. I'm familiar enough with scientific method.

Originally posted by Halcyon
But if it's scans you want, I'll find a way to do it.

It'll begin to validate the literature... I searched one repository that goes back to 1887, even includes European sources of both sides of the former Iron Curtain.

 

[phlogistician]

Originally posted by Halcyon
God, scientologists disgust me, too.

About operation Stargate, the results were never, at any point in history, debunked.

If you'd read the link I provided to FAS, you;d have seen that at best, RV allegedly proved 'valid information' in 15% of it's uses (and that probably with favourable interpretations, having seen supposed 'positive' results and the associated sketches), but this figure was doubted, and it's significance questioned.

So Stargate hasn't shown any effect to be debunked, firstly. Merely making claim and saying 'there's no evidence to disprove this claim' does not make it true, that's a logical fallacy!

If it were reliable, and yielded good results, why are there so many spy satellites on orbit? Because valid scientific procedures yield valid results. Parapsychology is still having it's worth debated. That says everything!

 

[Ertai]

Originally posted by SkinWalker

With psychics of this quality, it's no wonder they shut the program down [/B]

LOL... oh well I guess your right

I should have read better that part were they describe part of the sessions..


I can show you with plenty of oficial info that the actual Data Sessions of RV being done by the government were actually much more precise, and the sketches almost identical to the targets..

Those journalists really picked up some bad wordings from the sessions, RV sessions are better if shown scans of the drawings

If you want I can show you some examples..
Just ask me in PM or I'll PM you

You could put that in your paper work

 

[Halcyon]

Originally posted by SkinWalker
I did search Ebsco and MedLine for a reference to Dimitrova, but found nothing. Google had a couple pages worth, though nothing that was very useful. I do note that she was mentioned in a book by the title, The Secret History of America's Psychic Spies by Jim Schnabel. Unfortunately, such books are pseudoscientific and have little credibility themselves. Fiction that touts itself as fact has always sold well... the National Enquirer does it on a weekly basis. I think this is actually one of the two books I read on the subject several years ago, as Dimitrova's story is vaguely familiar to me.

There's a pretty good book, well referenced, called Psychic Discoveries Behind The Iron Curtain, and copies are usually pretty abundant on used book store sites like amazon, and I think it's in re-circulation, but I'm not sure. The authors had flown to Bulgaria to research the information first-hand. It's the only currently available reference(still published) I can think of, but I have piles and piles of papers and reports all over my library that'll need sorting through in order to come up with anything more.

My intent was not to attack you, but rather to point out that anecdotal claims are abundant in the field of the "paranormal" and are nearly always complete fabrications. If Lozanov tested Dimitrova, he (Lozanov) did not write a paper on it. I did, however find the following in Ebsco:

I understand.
You're correct, I wouldn't trust that source if my life depended on it. However, go to http://www.lozanov.com/lozanov/index.html, there's a link available with an email address to send questions regarding Lozanov's research.

I used the word "valid" in the sense of still acceptable or unexpired. If the work was pseudoscientific to begin with, and the methodology incomplete or insufficient, and if the results cannot be repeated by others, then the work is invalid... regardless of how much exists. If the literature cannot be accessed, the methodology cannot be examined, and the results cannot be attempted by others. Therefore, the literature itself becomes invalid.

Understood.

I don't see why I cannot be in a position to judge a source. I'm familiar enough with scientific method.

But, if you're discounting a source without examining it, what are you applying the scientific method to? That's what I meant.

It'll begin to validate the literature... I searched one repository that goes back to 1887, even includes European sources of both sides of the former Iron Curtain.

Any chance you could provide me a link to that database? It sounds pretty useful.

 

[Halcyon]

Okay, I'm having trouble finding my copy of the first article I listed:

Velinov, Ivan, "Recent Soviet Experiments in Telepathic Communication," Foreign Science Bulletin, Vol 4, No 8, Aug., 1968

HOWEVER, this, and a few of the others are available from;
NTIS,
5285 Port Royal Road
Springfield, VA 22161

Which is where I had to order a few of my reports. The reports aren't free, however.

I will be re-ordering myself a copy, since it's not free, I do not expect you to order one yourself, and wouldn't blame you.

For reports that I've mentioned that I can no longer find(My library is a mess, organization would be nice, but I have no time for it.), I will be sending you my sources for the reports, and I will let you know which reports I have re-ordered so you know what to expect.


I have also ordered a whole slew of reports(You must know, they are all sceptical evaluations of the issue, the only way to have it.) from;

Defense Technical Information Center
Attn: Freedom of Information Act Officer
8725 John J. Kingman Road Suite 0944
Fort Belvoir, VA 22060-6218

And will most likely be posting some information gleaned there-in. This service is free of charge, so you can order all you want. I do not know if there is a categorical listing of all the reports and papers offered by these agencies, but I am looking, and if I find one, I will post a link, being that it should be an invaluable source to anyone researching this subject.