Jailed for Sending Kids to Better School District

[Trooper]

I have many friends who have done this. It’s very common. Do any of you think that she should have been jailed for this? I feel that the dollar amount should be attached to the child.

Mom Jailed for Sending Kids to Better School District


“American schools don't teach as well as schools in other countries because they are government monopolies, and monopolies don't have much incentive to compete. In Belgium, by contrast, the money is attached to the kids -- it's a kind of voucher system. Government funds education -- at many different kinds of schools -- but if a school can't attract students, it goes out of business.

Belgian School Principal Kaat Vandensavel told us she works hard to impress parents.

She told us, "If we don't offer them what they want for their child, they won't come to our school." She constantly improves the teaching, saying, "You can't afford 10 teachers out of 160 that don't do their work, because the clients will know, and won't come to you again."

"That's normal in Western Europe," Harvard economist Caroline Hoxby told me. "If schools don't perform well, a parent would never be trapped in that school in the same way you could be trapped in the U.S."


John Stossel's 'Stupid in America'

YouTube: Stupid in America

 

[dbnp48]

Here's a link to the pros and cons of school voucher systems:
http://www.balancedpolitics.org/school_vouchers.htm

 

[Trooper]

Thanks for the link!

“In 1955 Milton Friedman put forth an idea of using free market principles to improve the United States public school system. Currently, public schools are funded by state and local taxes and a child is assigned their school based on where that student lives. Friedman pointed out that by distributing vouchers to the families of students equal to the tuition that he/she would receive at his/her local public school, a student’s family could then choose from options where best to send their child.”

The Foundation for Educational Choice

“It is increasingly understood that America's education crisis is one of school structure, not of per pupil expenditures. Simply put, American schools are failing because they are organized according to a bureaucratic, monopolistic model; their organizing principle is basically the same as that of a socialist economy. For the same reason that socialist economies around the world have failed and continue to fail, America's centrally planned schools are failing.”

The Cato Institute


Separation from church and state can and has been resolved by voucher systems using only non-religious private schools. In the 60’s school vouchers were used as a way to carry on segregation but today’s voucher programs prohibit racial discrimination. However, here is a public high school located in Lancaster, Pennsylvania that has decided to segregate its students by race and gender, and only African-Americans. If we are resorting to this to improve grades then it is time to realize that our current system is not working.

School defends experiment to separate black students in a bid to boost their academic results.

 

[sifreak21]

story is skewed on of the main reasons is she would pay the 30,000usd difference in schooling not because she lied becuase she wanted the better school but didnt want to pay for it.. that said 30k is fucking outragous for a shit ass public school

 

[adoucette]

On a personal side of this story, the mother was apparently near getting her degree and was to become a teacher:

"'Because of the felony conviction, you will not be allowed to get your teaching degree under Ohio law as it stands today. The court's taking into consideration that is also a punishment that you will have to serve.'' - Judge Patricia Cosgrove


Arthur

 

[adoucette]

School defends experiment to separate black students in a bid to boost their academic results.

Hmmmm?

I guess it really isn't educational segregation as the title suggests.

The separation is only for a short period - six minutes each day and 20 minutes twice a month

It would seem like it is oriented towards providing additioinal mentoring to these students.

Also, what it didn't say is what the rest of the student body is doing during these ~3 hours of separation each month, and there in could be the undoing of this, because while most black students might be doing poorly, there are surely some who are doing better than some whites, yet they have to attend this purely because of race and not academic achievement and that is not likely to be allowed to persist.

Arthur

 

[SilentLi89]

Also, what it didn't say is what the rest of the student body is doing during these ~3 hours of separation each month, and there in could be the undoing of this, because while most black students might be doing poorly, there are surely some who are doing better than some whites, yet they have to attend this purely because of race and not academic achievement and that is not likely to be allowed to persist.

Arthur

I know it's bad to say that segregation was a good thing, but every single elder black person that I've asked have all said that segregated schools were much better. According to them the teachers expected more from their students, mediocre grades were not acceptable. However in integrated schools even up until this day teachers often don't expect much from their black students.

While I assume it's unintentional, regardless of what people know it is just a deeply ingrained stereotype in the US that black people aren't smart, they excel in things like athletics and entertainment, but not school. So when a black student gets a C on a test teachers often think, that they did their best, they might even get praise for it.

Teachers have low expectations so the kids meet expectations. When teachers have high expectations the students also have high expectations. The solution is finding teachers who expect more from their students regardless of background which is much easier said than done.

*it'd be even better if those kids parents expected more from them...

 

[clusteringflux]

I know it's bad to say that segregation was a good thing, but every single elder black person that I've asked have all said that segregated schools were much better. According to them the teachers expected more from their students, mediocre grades were not acceptable. However in integrated schools even up until this day teachers often don't expect much from their black students.

While I assume it's unintentional, regardless of what people know it is just a deeply ingrained stereotype in the US that black people aren't smart, they excel in things like athletics and entertainment, but not school. So when a black student gets a C on a test teachers often think, that they did their best, they might even get praise for it.

Teachers have low expectations so the kids meet expectations. When teachers have high expectations the students also have high expectations. The solution is finding teachers who expect more from their students regardless of background which is much easier said than done.

*it'd be even better if those kids parents expected more from them...

I wouldn't endorse segregated education today but I've read that there was pride and competition factor involved with segregated schools. While that motivation mat not be the greatest to get hung up on, it would certainly go a great distance towards feeling truly equal to whip the pants off some fru fru white school in a test of academics.
Another thing that may not be so bad for young black males in particular is to be in an environment where strong male teachers can be shown as role models. Where now it can be seen as a "white thing" to be "smart" and a "black thing" to be athletic and suave.
It also begs the question of how many teachers don't want to the extra step with black kids not because they aren't smart enough but because it would "look" like special treatment in an artificially equal setting.

 

[SilentLi89]

I wouldn't endorse segregated education today but I've read that there was pride and competition factor involved with segregated schools. While that motivation mat not be the greatest to get hung up on, it would certainly go a great distance towards feeling truly equal to whip the pants off some fru fru white school in a test of academics.
Another thing that may not be so bad for young black males in particular is to be in an environment where strong male teachers can be shown as role models. Where now it can be seen as a "white thing" to be "smart" and a "black thing" to be athletic and suave.
It also begs the question of how many teachers don't want to the extra step with black kids not because they aren't smart enough but because it would "look" like special treatment in an artificially equal setting.

That's all very possible. Regardless of the motivation for higher achievement it worked. All schools should be more competitive, my school was extremely academically competitive with other schools in not only our area but nationwide and competitive with each other. Now that high school has one of the highest API ratings in the state. Then people would less often feel the need to have interdistrict transfers. The annoying part is what a pain it is to get your kids transferred.

 

[Trooper]

If the system isn’t working, why stick with it? In my humble opinion, it is not only African American students who are not benefitting, it’s all children. We need a system that rewards good teachers and one that doesn’t protect the bad ones. There are great teachers out there and they deserve merit pay. We should have a choice as to where our children attend school. It shouldn’t be based on our zip code. The teachers union, with their tenure programs, makes it almost impossible to fire ineffective teachers.

Teacher Tenure is Under Attack.

“More probably, the teachers’ unions have sent a message to every urban Democrat in the United States: Your first priority is to protect our jobs, all of our jobs, whether we perform competently or not. If you instead put children and learners first, we will crush you.”

Putting Union Jobs Ahead of Children’s Futures

 

[adoucette]

If the system isn’t working, why stick with it?

Well we shouldn't, but even if you try, the chances of making meaningful change are not good.

Don't believe me, then try taking on the public school system some time and trying to make them change ANYTHING.

It's nearly impossible as they hold nearly all the cards and the only one you really have to play is to take your kid out of public school (you usually don't have an option as to where they go to public school), and for most working parents, that's simply not an option.

Having fought with public school officials for years (thankfully my kids are now out), I quickly learned that there were few things you could do to affect meaningful change in the system.

I hate to admit it, but now that my own kids have escaped, I no longer have the desire or energy to try to fix the broken system that it obviously is.

Arthur

 

[iceaura]

I know it's bad to say that segregation was a good thing, but every single elder black person that I've asked have all said that segregated schools were much better

Schools have returned to segregation over the past couple of decades - the schools in my area are obviously segregated by race.

It doesn't seem to have helped.

The segregated schools of the past turned out mostly illiterate and ignorant black graduates.

One of the strongest correlations with the apparent decline of educational standards in the high schools is the increasing credential emphasis in the outer world - the requirement of a diploma for even the most menial of jobs. Another is the decline in relative pay and respect and working conditions for teachers, compared with other professions requiring similar career preparation (not just doctors and lawyers: a 36 week trade school program in CNC machining, four hours a day four days a week, nothing beyond junior high school arithmetic and literacy required, can easily start you - right out of the school - at the median annual wage of an established high school teacher in my area. You'll be thousands less in debt. You won't have to take summer classes to keep up your license. And you can go to the bathroom whenever you need to, play on the weekends, get paid for every hour you work, leave your job at the factory door, hit anyone who screams and spits at you, and quit for better money on two weeks notice). Add to that the loss of the coerced supply of superior ability in women formerly denied better employment elsewhere.

You aren't going to fix that with vouchers, or union busting.

 

[madanthonywayne]

Another is the decline in relative pay and respect and working conditions for teachers, compared with other professions requiring similar career preparation (not just doctors and lawyers: a 36 week trade school program in CNC machining, four hours a day four days a week, nothing beyond junior high school arithmetic and literacy required, can easily start you - right out of the school - at the median annual wage of an established high school teacher in my area. You'll be thousands less in debt. You won't have to take summer classes to keep up your license.
You aren't going to fix that with vouchers, or union busting.

Please. Teacher pay is not bad. Especially when you consider that they get a three month vacation.

No one believes teacher salaries are the path to great wealth. However, most people don't realize that the average teacher salary is significantly higher than many other professional occupations requiring a 4-year degree. Depending on what and where you teach, you'll find a teacher salary can be quite competitive.

According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), in 2009 median teacher salaries for K-12 positions ranged from an average of $50,380 a year for kindergarten teachers to over $55,150 a year for some secondary school positions. And, those numbers just reflect the U.S. average.

The BLS also estimates that full-time public teachers work an average of 36.5 hours a week during the school year. With the average school year across much of the United States at usually less than 200 days, teaching salaries start to look even more attractive.

In addition, these numbers don't take into account the benefits that most school districts offer their educators: comprehensive health and life insurance, as well as solid retirement and pension plans. Many school districts also offer to pay for or contribute to a teacher's continuing education.

Most districts pay more based on the amount of college education a teacher has. A master's degree, doctorate or other types of certification, such as special education or vocational certificates, can add thousands of dollars to a base teacher salary each year. For more information on these programs, read our article, "How to Become a Teacher."

There are also many other opportunities to increase your teacher salary:

coaching after-school athletics
advising after-school clubs
becoming a department head
becoming a mentor for new teachers
helping with after-school tutoring programs
administering and grading placement exams
teaching summer school programs
By supplementing your teacher salary with these extra teaching opportunities, you can make an even better living in many areas. Depending on your teaching degree, experience and job placement research, you can have a very rewarding and good-paying career in the teaching profession.

Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics 2009
​

http://www.alleducationschools.com/education-careers/article/teacher-salary-secrets

Furthermore, private schools, which tend to pay less and offer fewer benefits somehow manage to yield results far superior to that at public schools.

We're often told that public schools are underfunded. In the District, the spending figure cited most commonly is $8,322 per child, but total spending is close to $25,000 per child -- on par with tuition at Sidwell Friends, the private school Chelsea Clinton attended in the 1990s.

What accounts for the nearly threefold difference in these numbers? The commonly cited figure counts only part of the local operating budget. To calculate total spending, we have to add up all sources of funding for education from kindergarten through 12th grade, excluding spending on charter schools and higher education. For the current school year, the local operating budget is $831 million, including relevant expenses such as the teacher retirement fund. The capital budget is $218 million. The District receives about $85.5 million in federal funding. And the D.C. Council contributes an extra $81 million. Divide all that by the 49,422 students enrolled (for the 2007-08 year) and you end up with about $24,600 per child.

For comparison, total per pupil spending at D.C. area private schools -- among the most upscale in the nation -- averages about $10,000 less. For most private schools, the difference is even greater.​

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/04/AR2008040402921.html

 

[iceaura]

Please. Teacher pay is not bad. Especially when you consider that they get a three month vacation.

It's been declining, was the point. It's about equivalent to entry level wages at a skilled trade, these days. You are complaining about declining teacher quality, maybe factors that are declining in synchrony deserve some attention?

It's not high enough any more to attract top college grads to what are by general agreement high stress, bad situation jobs - some are willing to take the pay hit, for that supposed "vacation" (which is schooling and other job support, for many teachers - stuff they don't have time for in the 70 hour school season weeks).

Furthermore, private schools, which tend to pay less and offer fewer benefits somehow manage to yield results far superior to that at public schools.

In my home town the local private school went to 9th grade - when the kids transferred to the public school they were about a half grade behind, often a full grade. They needed remedial work, to catch up.

They rode the public school bus, too: most private schools in cities piggyback on the taxpayer's dime for busing, infrastructure, etc. It's common for liars to compare tuition at private schools to the total cost of the entire operation at public schools, and draw conclusions. (tuition at Sidwell is 30k, not counting endowment funds, btw).

 

[adoucette]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jan/27/simmons-school-vouchers-the-right-option/?page=1

Article on vouchers as the answer.

Never heard a good reason why they wouldn't be a good solution after it was given the green light by the Supremes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelman_v._Simmons-Harris

The Supreme Court ruled that the Ohio program did not violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, because it passed a five-part test developed by the Court in this case, titled the Private Choice Test.

Under the Private Choice Test developed by the court, for a voucher program to be constitutional it must meet all of the following criteria:

• the program must have a valid secular purpose,
• aid must go to parents and not to the schools,
• a broad class of beneficiaries must be covered,
• the program must be neutral with respect to religion, and
• there must be adequate nonreligious options.

Arthur

 

[iceaura]

Article on vouchers as the answer.

Never heard a good reason why they wouldn't be a good solution

If they actually replace the entire funding setup of public schooling, on a community scale, they are too expensive and the schools are subject to the same woes - no money is saved, and no quality improvements follow.

If they cover only partial costs, and only a chosen few of the student community, they operate as tax breaks for rich people. We have enough of those.

 

[adoucette]

So, assuming we went to a voucher system (and made the transition intellegently) the final outcome, where the cost is the same (no reason to think that pay via voucher would be more expensive) and schools had to compete based on demonstrable results wouldn't be better than one where they don't have to compete on anything?

Why?

Based on the information contained in this report, the authors recommend that the Cleveland Scholarship Program should be continued and expanded by the State of Ohio.

http://www.hks.harvard.edu/pepg/PDF/Papers/clev2ex.pdf

Ohio 2009: Numbers released by the department show 13,064 students applied by last month's deadline for Educational Choice Scholarships for the upcoming school year. That represents an increase of more than 20 percent from the 10,818 applications received last year.

Arthur

 

[SilentLi89]

If the system isn’t working, why stick with it? In my humble opinion, it is not only African American students who are not benefitting, it’s all children. We need a system that rewards good teachers and one that doesn’t protect the bad ones. There are great teachers out there and they deserve merit pay. We should have a choice as to where our children attend school. It shouldn’t be based on our zip code. The teachers union, with their tenure programs, makes it almost impossible to fire ineffective teachers.

California doesn't even do tenure programs anymore, but it still has one of the lowest quality educations in the country. There will always be teachers that are bad for some students and good for others. I don't think it's just about the teachers. Teachers don't make the rules they just follow them. Even if the majority of the class is struggling with a topic they have to plow forward. The education system in the US needs a complete overhaul. There is no quick fix. It's absurd that the US has such terrible primary education, yet many US universities are the some of the best in the world.

 

[SilentLi89]

Schools have returned to segregation over the past couple of decades - the schools in my area are obviously segregated by race.

It doesn't seem to have helped.

The segregated schools of the past turned out mostly illiterate and ignorant black graduates.

It wasn't the segregation that was good, it was the exectations that teachers had for their students. Nowadays younger black teachers and parents have the same stereotypes about black students being "unteachable" swimming around in their psyche too. They don't expect much from their students who in turn meet their expectations. Take those same low achieving kids and put them in a school where people care about their grades and don't let them slide by on bad ones and they all can get at least a 2.0 GPA, having passed Calculus, Latin, and have a year of undergraduate study under their belt. But schools like that are very few and far between unfortunately...

The guy who created my high school did the same for inner city kids in that area, with excellent results. Too bad there aren't more people like him, starting schools everywhere.

 

[iceaura]

So, assuming we went to a voucher system (and made the transition intellegently) the final outcome, where the cost is the same (no reason to think that pay via voucher would be more expensive) and schools had to compete based on demonstrable results wouldn't be better than one where they don't have to compete on anything?

Seems to me any system creating realistic competition among all schools for all students would be insanely expensive - for the overcapacity alone, let alone the busing, hiring, transfer of materials, etc.

How are you planning to set this up?