Jesus died for (supposedly) plotting against the higher Jewish authority. He didn't die to save any murderer. He died BECAUSE he was made to drown in his own blood... making it manslaughter. Anyway, didn't Judas die in his place or something?KalvinB said:
It Was Barabbas!
- Thread starter ConsequentAtheist
- Start date
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
Hiya CA,
Perhaps the question is not whether or not you have too much faith in God, but whether or not you have too much faith in Timothy.
Perhaps, but given that I believe the Bible is inspired by God then my faith remains in Him.
Yes, Dave, and often this acceptance is based on 2 Timothy 3:16. I have never really understood how the faithful can be satisfied with such circular reasoning: the Bible is true because the Bible says so. I find the argument underwhelming.
Well some people experience a real personal relationship with Christ and are also blessed with the Holy Spirit; this is all some people need.
I know of no reasonable examples of the Tanach referencing Jesus. There appears to be, however, more than a few instances where the authors referenced well known stories from the Tanach to lend credence to their stories.
What about Isaiah 53 for instance? Do you palm this of as a mere coincidence or part of some plot to elevate Jesus to Messiah status? Baring in mind this prediction was written 700 years before Jesus walked the earth. Is Isaiah 53 the same in the Jewish Bible? What about Isaiah 7:14 too? Why would early church leaders decide to concoct a fictitious story that just happened to fulfil numerous prophecies, were men capable of this in your opinion?
Deuteronomy 32:8.
So is the text for this verse in Jewish scripture different or am I confused by what you are trying to explain by harmonisation?
Read the history.
I will try my best to cover this area this year.
Noting the underwhelming response to the miracle found in Luke is hardly "the Jewish perspective".
I was actually referring to “And, even here, Luke gets it wrong. There are any number of things that are prohibited on Shabbat. None include healing someone by touching them (unless done for wages). Furthermore, had her infirmity been acute rather than chronic, healing her (be it Shabbas or not) would have been mandated. The leader of the synagogue simply would have had no basis for saying what he is purported to have said”
You provided a perspective that I couldn’t because of my lack of knowledge about Jewish traditions. I think I did jumble up my response so it wasn’t clear though.
Do you think Luke is the only dodgy gospel in the context we’re talking?
Thanks for the links btw.
Dave
Perhaps the question is not whether or not you have too much faith in God, but whether or not you have too much faith in Timothy.
Perhaps, but given that I believe the Bible is inspired by God then my faith remains in Him.
Yes, Dave, and often this acceptance is based on 2 Timothy 3:16. I have never really understood how the faithful can be satisfied with such circular reasoning: the Bible is true because the Bible says so. I find the argument underwhelming.
Well some people experience a real personal relationship with Christ and are also blessed with the Holy Spirit; this is all some people need.
I know of no reasonable examples of the Tanach referencing Jesus. There appears to be, however, more than a few instances where the authors referenced well known stories from the Tanach to lend credence to their stories.
What about Isaiah 53 for instance? Do you palm this of as a mere coincidence or part of some plot to elevate Jesus to Messiah status? Baring in mind this prediction was written 700 years before Jesus walked the earth. Is Isaiah 53 the same in the Jewish Bible? What about Isaiah 7:14 too? Why would early church leaders decide to concoct a fictitious story that just happened to fulfil numerous prophecies, were men capable of this in your opinion?
Deuteronomy 32:8.
So is the text for this verse in Jewish scripture different or am I confused by what you are trying to explain by harmonisation?
Read the history.
I will try my best to cover this area this year.
Noting the underwhelming response to the miracle found in Luke is hardly "the Jewish perspective".
I was actually referring to “And, even here, Luke gets it wrong. There are any number of things that are prohibited on Shabbat. None include healing someone by touching them (unless done for wages). Furthermore, had her infirmity been acute rather than chronic, healing her (be it Shabbas or not) would have been mandated. The leader of the synagogue simply would have had no basis for saying what he is purported to have said”
You provided a perspective that I couldn’t because of my lack of knowledge about Jewish traditions. I think I did jumble up my response so it wasn’t clear though.
Do you think Luke is the only dodgy gospel in the context we’re talking?
Thanks for the links btw.
Dave
ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
In other words, this discussion is futile. I am no match for circular reasoning, much less some fictive Holy Spirit. I can only leave you with the reminder that the followers of competing religions, including the many purged variants of Ante-Nicene Christianity, felt and feel likewise inspired and blessed. In the words of Stephen Roberts:davewhite04 said:
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
You are, of course, kidding. Do you accept the stories of competing religions?davewhite04 said:
Dave, if you wish to discuss either of these "prophesies", I suggest that you select one and start a new thread.
See [here]. Leading Tanach/LXX/DSS scholars consider the RSV to be closer to the original, with changes subsequently made to erase the residue of early Israelite henotheism.davewhite04 said:
The prohibition on Shabbat centers around issues of doing word and exerting creative effort. Had Yeshua used special chants or potients, he could have been justifiably condemned. He did nothing of the kind.davewhite04 said:
Good God no!davewhite04 said:
There's the Passion narrative for example.
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
Hiya CA,
In other words, this discussion is futile.
I suppose it is futile like many discussions between Atheists and Theists but I have actually learnt alot from you in this discussion in general, shame I can't teach you anything really...
Do you accept the stories of competing religions?
Well I don’t know other religions/cults well enough to condemn them.
Dave, if you wish to discuss either of these "prophesies", I suggest that you select one and start a new thread.
Ok, I thought you might have had a quick rebuttal.
See [here]. Leading Tanach/LXX/DSS scholars consider the RSV to be closer to the original, with changes subsequently made to erase the residue of early Israelite henotheism.
Thanks
The prohibition on Shabbat centers around issues of doing word and exerting creative effort. Had Yeshua used special chants or potients, he could have been justifiably condemned. He did nothing of the kind.
This is something I will look into in more detail.
Good God no! There's the Passion narrative for example.
And what is the Passion narrative you refer to?
Dave
In other words, this discussion is futile.
I suppose it is futile like many discussions between Atheists and Theists
but I have actually learnt alot from you in this discussion in general, shame I can't teach you anything really...Do you accept the stories of competing religions?
Well I don’t know other religions/cults well enough to condemn them.
Dave, if you wish to discuss either of these "prophesies", I suggest that you select one and start a new thread.
Ok, I thought you might have had a quick rebuttal.
See [here]. Leading Tanach/LXX/DSS scholars consider the RSV to be closer to the original, with changes subsequently made to erase the residue of early Israelite henotheism.
Thanks
The prohibition on Shabbat centers around issues of doing word and exerting creative effort. Had Yeshua used special chants or potients, he could have been justifiably condemned. He did nothing of the kind.
This is something I will look into in more detail.
Good God no! There's the Passion narrative for example.
And what is the Passion narrative you refer to?
Dave