Israeli/Hamas disregard for human life.

[S.A.M.]

The IDF warned the Palestinians that war was coming and if they didn't want to be in it, they should leave. Those that didn't leave obviously wanted to be in it.

The Palestinians knew for weeks that the troops were coming.

Baron Max

The Israelis bombed UN buildings. Did they warn them?

They bombed civilians during ceasefires they declared. Where was the warning?

They bombed a cop station and killed all the cops. Did they warn them?

 

[Baron Max]

The Israelis bombed UN buildings. Did they warn them?

Yeah, they probably did!

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

The Israelis bombed UN buildings. Did they warn them?

They bombed civilians during ceasefires they declared. Where was the warning?

They bombed a cop station and killed all the cops. Did they warn them?

Do you know what war is, SAM? I mean, do you have even a clue about the concepts of a declared war? Do you think that it's always pretty, with lots of flowers and soft pom-poms?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

Yeah, they probably did!

Baron Max

Then the war crimes investigations should be pretty straightforward

South African judge to head UN inquiry into Gaza war crimes
By Reuters

South African judge Richard Goldstone will head an international fact-finding mission into allegations of war crimes by Israeli forces and Palestinian militants in Gaza, the United Nations said on Friday.

The former war crimes prosecutor will head a four-member team whose mandate stems from a resolution adopted by the United Nations Human Rights Council at a special session on January 12.

Goldstone will investigate conduct by both sides in Israel's 22-day offensive in the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip. According to a Palestinian rights group, 1,417 people including 926 civilians were killed in the fighting. Thirteen Israelis also died.

"It is in the interest of all Palestinians and Israelis that the allegations of war crimes and serious human rights violations related to the recent conflict on all sides be investigated," Goldstone said in a statement.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1076259.html

 

[Baron Max]

Then the war crimes investigations should be pretty straightforward

Oh, sure ....if you want to know about "war crimes" committed by the IDF, then just ask Hamas members ...they'll always be fully truthful, never resorting to propaganda or unsubstantiated accusations.

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

I'd rather just ask the IDF

They like to boast about their "accomplishments"

 

[Baron Max]

I'd rather just ask the IDF ... They like to boast about their "accomplishments".

So like you, SAM, to listen to the single voices in the night instead of the of the entire choir! ...LOL!

Baron Max

 

[Bells]

Oh, sure ....if you want to know about "war crimes" committed by the IDF, then just ask Hamas members ...they'll always be fully truthful, never resorting to propaganda or unsubstantiated accusations.

Baron Max

Oh, they have freely admitted it.

Whenever concerns are expressed over civilian casualties inflicted in Israeli military operations, the country's generals and political leaders are quick to insist that theirs is the "world's most moral army." That claim was challenged by human rights observers over Israel's recent offensive in Gaza, although such criticism is reflexively dismissed by Israel as driven by pro-Palestinian bias. But when the allegations of abuses come from Israeli soldiers involved in the fighting, they can't be as easily dismissed.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak was forced to repeat the "world's most moral army" mantra on Thursday, this time to reassure his own countrymen shocked by allegations published in the Israeli media from six veterans of the Gaza operation. The six soldiers, whose identity is being kept confidential, made their claims in an address last month to cadets of the Yitzhak Rabin military academy, of which they are graduates. Among other claims, the soldiers alleged that an Israeli sniper had shot a woman and her two children who walked in the wrong direction after being ordered out of their home by Israeli troops. In a second incident, a sniper supposedly killed an unarmed elderly woman who posed no apparent threat to Israeli troops. And the soldiers ascribed these incidents to overly permissive rules of engagement. See pictures of Israel's Gaza offensive)

"I simply felt it was murder in cold blood, said the soldier who witnessed the scene, quoted in the daily Haaretz. He went on to explain sarcastically, "That's what is so nice, supposedly about Gaza. You see a person waking on a road... He doesn't have to be with a weapon, you don't have to identify him with anything and you can just shoot him. With us it was an old woman on whom I didn't see any weapon. The order was to take that woman out, the moment you see her."

------------------------------------------------------

Human rights investigators suggest that what the soldiers' allegations and eyewitness accounts from Gaza residents suggest is that, in an effort to maximize the safety of their own soldiers entering Gaza, Israeli commanders may have let their ethical standards slide. Retired general and former security chief Ami Ayalon concurs. The Gaza operation, says Ayalon, "compromised the I.D.F.'s ethos, which was once built on ethics, sacrifice. And today, after the Gaza offensive, it is based on force alone."

A soldier identified as Aviv from the Givati Brigade, one of Israel's elite combat units, reportedly described to the military cadets his inner conflict over obeying orders to use indiscriminate firepower while clearing out an eight-story apartment building. "We were supposed to ... burst through the lower door, start shooting inside and then ... I call this murder... in effect, we were supposed to go up floor by floor, and any person we identified, we were supposed to shoot. I initially asked myself: Where is the logic in this?"

Aviv explained that his commanders had blurred the boundaries between combatants and civilians: "From [the officers] above, they said it was permissible, because anyone who remained ...inside Gaza City was, in effect, incriminated, a terrorist, because they hadn't fled," Aviv alleged. "On one hand, they really don't have anywhere to flee to, but on the other hand [the officers] are telling us they hadn't fled so it's their fault." Faced with having to slay the 40 families cowering in the building, he was able to persuade his superiors to let him warn the tenants, giving them five minutes to leave or "get killed."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090321/wl_time/08599188685600

The testimonies include a description by an infantry squad leader of an incident where an IDF sharpshooter mistakenly shot a Palestinian mother and her two children. "There was a house with a family inside .... We put them in a room. Later we left the house and another platoon entered it, and a few days after that there was an order to release the family. They had set up positions upstairs. There was a sniper position on the roof," the soldier said.

"The platoon commander let the family go and told them to go to the right. One mother and her two children didn't understand and went to the left, but they forgot to tell the sharpshooter on the roof they had let them go and it was okay, and he should hold his fire and he ... he did what he was supposed to, like he was following his orders."

According to the squad leader: "The sharpshooter saw a woman and children approaching him, closer than the lines he was told no one should pass. He shot them straight away. In any case, what happened is that in the end he killed them.

"I don't think he felt too bad about it, because after all, as far as he was concerned, he did his job according to the orders he was given. And the atmosphere in general, from what I understood from most of my men who I talked to ... I don't know how to describe it .... The lives of Palestinians, let's say, is something very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers. So as far as they are concerned they can justify it that way," he said.

Another squad leader from the same brigade told of an incident where the company commander ordered that an elderly Palestinian woman be shot and killed; she was walking on a road about 100 meters from a house the company had commandeered.

The squad leader said he argued with his commander over the permissive rules of engagement that allowed the clearing out of houses by shooting without warning the residents beforehand. After the orders were changed, the squad leader's soldiers complained that "we should kill everyone there [in the center of Gaza]. Everyone there is a terrorist."

The squad leader said: "You do not get the impression from the officers that there is any logic to it, but they won't say anything. To write 'death to the Arabs' on the walls, to take family pictures and spit on them, just because you can. I think this is the main thing: To understand how much the IDF has fallen in the realm of ethics, really. It's what I'll remember the most."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

Do you think the Israeli soldiers who were there are lying?

 

[Baron Max]

Oh, they have freely admitted it.

Do you think the Israeli soldiers who were there are lying?

So you think that we should simply believe them and convict the entire IDF without benefit of due process of the law?

Baron Max

 

[copernicus66]

Whats unreasonable about going berserk under those conditions?

What conditions? Did this man suffer any more than the billions of other individuals throughout history who did not resort to hacking at children with an axe?

I'm surprised its only the occasional one who goes bonkers.

I'm not surprised that you'd attempt to absolve Islamists and brown people of all responsibility.

Americans have started shooting their own kids merely on losing jobs.

And they are condemned for doing so by the American population, and punished by the American justice system. On the other hand, Muslims will attempt to defend or mitigate murderous behaviour perpetrated by their fellow Muslims.

This is precisely why we cannot co-exist, S.A.M. Mainstream Islam consists of people like you, Diamond and Arsalan, who close ranks whenever another Muslim fucks up. They will attempt to mitigate, excuse or blame their behaviour on someone else (usually the West), and then rattle on about the West, as if any of the West's own fuck ups justify the barbarism exhibited by your Islamic comrades. In your eyes, it's you and your fellow Muslims vs. all us non-Muslims. What do they call it... "Pan-Islamism"?

Without the starvation, the blockade, the loss of home and nation, the prolonged occupation.

Do you want some more cheese with your whine?

 

[Bells]

So you think that we should simply believe them and convict the entire IDF without benefit of due process of the law?

Baron Max

Why would they lie?

What they have detailed has been described all over Gaza during the incursion. So why would they lie? What do they gain by lying about it?

There are obviously soldiers in the IDF who know the difference between right and wrong and those who know and simply do not care. Those soldiers were merely telling of what they saw and experienced.

 

[S.A.M.]

Let me see US troops run to the Utah desert when New York is attacked and I'll agree that Americans make sense when they apply ridiculous notions to Palestinians.

 

[Baron Max]

Why would they lie? What they have detailed has been described all over Gaza during the incursion. So why would they lie? What do they gain by lying about it?

It doesn't matter, Bells! When wild accusations take the place of due process of the law, then we're nothing but savages and mobs and advocates of personal vendettas. Is that what you want?

And when people are accused and convicted by public opinion, what do we have as a society, Bells? What is the need of the rule of law, when a quick public opinion is all people need to convict others? It is faster, isn't it? But is that what we want?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

Due process? Like Gitmo? lol

 

[Baron Max]

Due process? Like Gitmo?

As a matter of fact, yes!

Baron Max

 

[aaa]

S.A.M, I'd like to hear your response on this one:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1075992.html

Ofer Gamliel, the jailed father of Yair Gamliel, who was wounded in the Bat Ayin terror attack, on Thursday refused to visit his son in the hospital accompanied by prison guards

Ofer Gamliel is currently serving a prison sentence for his involvement in the 'Bat Ayin underground,' which had planned to carry out an attack several years ago at a girls' school in the A-Tor neighborhood in East Jerusalem.

In April 2002, police arrested Shlomo Dvir, Yarden Morag and Ofer Gamliel, 'Bat Ayin underground' members, who were later convicted of attempting to place an explosive device near the East Jerusalem school.

Morag and Gamliel were sentenced to 15 years each, while Dvir was sentenced to 12 years. Additional Bat Ayin residents were arrested and convicted in connection to the attempted attack.

Those settlers were trying to kill innocent school girls and the Israeli law dealt with them properly. Unfortunately, we don't see such things on the other side.

 

[S.A.M.]

As a matter of fact, yes!

Baron Max

So the Americans support the kidnapping and holding of civilians without access to courts and Red Cross for indefinite periods of time.

 

[S.A.M.]

S.A.M, I'd like to hear your response on this one:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1075992.html


Those settlers were trying to kill innocent school girls and the Israeli law dealt with them properly. Unfortunately, we don't see such things on the other side.

The Israeli "law" forgot to deal with the internationally illegal settlements.

The Israei "law" has also conveniently overlooked the Geneva conventions rules on replacing the population of occupied territories with its own "people", Not surprising, since that would ethically require the dissolution of the state ideology.

 

[copernicus66]

I wonder if the Muslims on this forum are going to condemn the axe-wielding Palestinian any time soon?

 

[S.A.M.]

What if he had used a white phosphorus bomb instead? Would that make his actions right? If he killed 300 children instead of one?