Islam the Peaceful Religion

[GeoffP]

Assuming that you have found the right sources, you may choose one which best suits you and nobody should blame you for that...

If I choose none of the books, Chuush, should no one blame me for that either?

As for the peace passages, you got it wrong. Quran is not a book of "Make love, not war". It is quite natural you don't find it full of PEACE, PEACE, PEACE. It is an all-including book of ideology, facts of life and how-to-live. You will also find war, family, money, help, society, good, evil, warning, Moses, jesus, Muhammad (only 3 or 4 passages with his name), God, satan, sword, olive, pairs, kill, forgive, punish, marry, make love, raise children, pay, measure, collect, thief, travel, paradise, hell, cells, heavens, movement of earth, light speed, solar system, jinns, creation, gravity, history, fruits, women, virgins, revenge, cleanness....

But this is the problem: the Christians can at least claim their version of God is about peace. The Quranic one makes no such claim. Ironically, apologists for islam have insisted for a long time that islam is indeed a "religion of peace", so your comment that it was not specifically so was rather refreshing, even if it wasn't heartening. I find rather, that while I have no deity I still prefer the Christian message to the islamic one, Sura 9, Sura 5 and parts of 4 and 2 being high on my list of reasons to reject your notions of deism. Although, of course, I am obliged to choose neither: a function of the society in which I live.

Best,

Geoff

 

[chuuush]

If I choose none of the books, Chuush, should no one blame me for that either?
Geoff

"2/256. Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah (God) hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."

But this is the problem: the Christians can at least claim their version of God is about peace. The Quranic one makes no such claim.

"59/22. Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- Who knows (all things) both secret and open; He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

23. Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the justly Proud. Glory to Allah! (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him.

24. Allah is He, the Creator, the Originator, the Fashioner. To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names: whatever is in the heavens and on earth, doth declare His Praises and Glory: and He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise."

Ironically, apologists for islam have insisted for a long time that islam is indeed a "religion of peace", so your comment that it was not specifically so was rather refreshing, even if it wasn't heartening.

Maybe it is because it is the most attacked religion on earth and almost all propaganda in western media is directly or indirectly aimed at drawing an evil image of it... and/or perhaps because muslims do not have the permit to defame other divine religions, however evil their followers behave...

I find rather, that while I have no deity I still prefer the Christian message to the islamic one, Sura 9, Sura 5 and parts of 4 and 2 being high on my list of reasons to reject your notions of deism. Although, of course, I am obliged to choose neither: a function of the society in which I live.

What exactly didn't suit your taste there in these chapters? Thy are so big texts full of almost any kind of teachings...

 

[AK444]

Not a peaceful religion. We dont need to read and learn how peaceful it is.
See any news channel at any time. you will come to know.

 

[chuuush]

Hi chuuush!

I had a couple real questions.

#1) On what day and in what year was the Qur'an finished and by who? Who were the exact people who compiled and canonized it?

I am not sure I got it right. Do you mean the end of revelation or when Quran was compiled. Read this anyway:
http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/
once there, go to section: Quran >> The History and authenticity of the Quran

If you want a history of islam, I suggest you try an islamic site to get first hand account instead of a non-muslim site. One suggestion is:
http://www.islamicity.com/education/ihame/default.asp?Destination=/education/ihame/1.asp

Many outsiders are so much focused on the prophet himself (P.B.U.H.) that do not have any knowledge on his companions. This may help:
http://anwary-islam.com/companion/abu_bakr_siddiq.htm

#2) What exactly is novel as well as enlightening in the Qur'an?
I mean, is there anything in the Qur'an that wasn't already expressed in Atheistic Greek Philosophy, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, etc...? What exactly is NEW? If there is nothing NEW and NOVEL then really why bother reading it? (note: bla bla bla .. and Mohammad was the Last Prophet, is not a new concept or enlightening, it is a flat statement).

So? Anything in there that is Novel and Enlightening?

Divine religions do not cancel their predecessors, they complete them and correct the wrong ideas which entered by human hand during time. There is no doubt that holy books like the Bible and Torah were altered by human hand and thus contained numerous wrongs and mistakes because they were no longer exact words of God, that's why islam came and why islam is the last divine religion, because its book is non-changeable by human beings.

Quran says that God is one and doesn't have any partners, he doesn't have a wife or a child... many old books including non-divine ones preach honesty, rightfullness, piety and good-doing; yet it can't be a reasoning against Quran to say it is preaching the same old merits in this way.. What Quran has added is that it purifies the human faith from human made alterations, it absolutely rejects the idea of multiple Gods/semi-gods, it puts forth a working and comprehensive system of social life, gives numerous hints about the scientific facts which were found by men centuries later, corrects a lot of wrong ideas about the angels, what to eat and what not eat (halal and Haram), bring a new form of the idea of ordering to good and discouraging from the evil (Amr Bil Maaruf ve NAhy Anil Munkar), Orders resistance against wrong-doers, approves the previous holy scripts as God-sent and the prevous prophets (including Jesus and Moses..), etc. etc...

Also when talking about Quran and its content, you inevitably need to have knowledge of the isamic traditions and commentaries as well.

#3) Regarding the many many unique and novel concepts only found in the Qur'an that you listed in (#2) - Could you please share with us YOUR personal Enlightenment? Some unique enlightened knowledge that you have acquired from the Qur'an?

What do you mean by this much general question? All my good characteristics have Quran's marks on them, and the bad ones will absolutely be corrected if I fully follow the Quranic teachings.

 

[chuuush]

Not a peaceful religion. We dont need to read and learn how peaceful it is.
See any news channel at any time. you will come to know.

Yup, you're right....Do not let others change your mind...

 

[GeoffP]

"2/256. Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah (God) hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."

Your post - and several translations - reads, effectively:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion for truth stands out clear from error..."

In other words, no matter the situation, one cannot really be "compulsed" to accept islam, since no one can be "compulsed" to accept the truth, now can they? This is precisely the way Wahhabis and conservatives of other sects interpret it. In other words: yes, one can indeed be compulsed to join islam, but since islam is the truth, it's not really compulsion.

"59/22. Allah is He...

Who commands slaughter and conversion:

al-Buhkari Book 19, 4294:

...He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them.

Sahih Muslim Book 001, Number 0030:
It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for the right affairs rest with Allah.

I might add that both of the above are sunnah, and al-Buhkari particularly canonical.

Of course there's also:

Q 9: 5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Unless you're not muslim, evidently.

Q 9: 29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

That's tolerance all right.

Maybe it is because it is the most attacked religion on earth and almost all propaganda in western media is directly or indirectly aimed at drawing an evil image of it... and/or perhaps because muslims do not have the permit to defame other divine religions, however evil their followers behave...

Oh? So muslims are not allowed to blast Christians because "their god was born of a woman's body", to which some I've met add "covered in shit and filth"? Muslims are not allowed to defame Judaism for supposedly corrupting their religious observance (an affirmation, I might add, utterly without proof of any kind)? Muslims are not allowed to despite the supposedly Christian ethic of "putting partners with God" as is formally denounced in the shahada? How about everything in Sura 9 after Q 9: 28? That isn't defamation? It was the second-to-last sura "revealed", you know.

What exactly didn't suit your taste there in these chapters? Thy are so big texts full of almost any kind of teachings...

What didn't suit my sensibilities in the Quran was the sense of the enforcement of islamic supremacism. I don't think you find the same in the Bible, and athiesm doesn't command that you follow it or die, either.

 

[Positron]

So chuuush your evidence that Islam was a religion of peace was a few passages about how Great Allah is? Im sure there a re books on Hitler and how great he is too. About how he'll be merciful if you join him. YOu are a prime example of a brainwashed person. Here is the steps Islam takes to win over others and thenn use them for the true motive of Islam which is to kill all "infidels"

1) Lure them in with promises of peace and such by showing them a few passages out of a badly translated or fabricated version of an Islamic holy book

2) Then make them forsake tyheir former freinds and allies in the belief that they are evil.

3) when they have no more allies but True Islamic followers they tell them their real plan which is to kill and destroy others

4) having no allies left they have no choice but to do what their new "freinds" tell them to.

Chuuush you are falling into their plan. They need to convert people across the seas in order to strike at the interior of their enemies strongholds. True islam is the slaughter of innocents and people who only want to help them. I am warning you chuuush. follow this path farther and you will find nothing but madness and sorrow.

Why should I choose your god who wants you to kill me and hate me, when I have a god who commands me to love you and try to save you from your misguided path?:shrug:

 

[Michael]

I am not sure I got it right. Do you mean the end of revelation or when Quran was compiled. Read this anyway:
http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/
once there, go to section: Quran >> The History and authenticity of the Quran
http://www.islamicity.com/education/ihame/default.asp?Destination=/education/ihame/1.asp
http://anwary-islam.com/companion/abu_bakr_siddiq.htm

Hi chuuush, I looked through the sites but they did not say anything to answer my specific question:

1) What day and in what year was the Qur'an completed?
2) What is the name of each person that was involved in compiling the Qur’an?
3) Which parts were written down by which person?
4) Who were the exact people who canonized it?

Divine religions do not cancel their predecessors, they complete them and correct the wrong ideas which entered by human hand during time. There is no doubt that holy books like the Bible and Torah were altered by human hand and thus contained numerous wrongs and mistakes because they were no longer exact words of God, that's why islam came and why islam is the last divine religion, because its book is non-changeable by human beings.

Quran says that God is one and doesn't have any partners, he doesn't have a wife or a child... many old books including non-divine ones preach honesty, rightfullness, piety and good-doing; yet it can't be a reasoning against Quran to say it is preaching the same old merits in this way.. What Quran has added is that it purifies the human faith from human made alterations, it absolutely rejects the idea of multiple Gods/semi-gods, it puts forth a working and comprehensive system of social life, gives numerous hints about the scientific facts which were found by men centuries later, corrects a lot of wrong ideas about the angels, what to eat and what not eat (halal and Haram), bring a new form of the idea of ordering to good and discouraging from the evil (Amr Bil Maaruf ve NAhy Anil Munkar), Orders resistance against wrong-doers, approves the previous holy scripts as God-sent and the previous prophets (including Jesus and Moses..), etc. etc...

Also when talking about Quran and its content, you inevitably need to have knowledge of the Islamic traditions and commentaries as well.

Thanks for that, but really I still have some questions in this regard:

1) What were the 5 most important “corrections” that were made by the Qur’an?
2) Does the Qur’an offer anything novel (new) that is also enlightening?
3) What have you found that was a personal enlightenment that you feel only the perfect book (such as the Qur’an) could have offered?

What do you mean by this much general question? All my good characteristics have Quran's marks on them, and the bad ones will absolutely be corrected if I fully follow the Quranic teachings.

Again thank you chuuush, I will try to be more specific. I am not religious and so this has more to do with my curiosity of Islamic History and Philosophy than any belief in Gods. I was wondered about your personal revelations.

-*- Have you experienced an enlightened epiphany reading the Philosophies of Islam?
-*-If so what was it?



What do you think of this: I’ve spoken with people born Muslim who have converted to Buddhism. They told me that in doing so that had, for the first time in their lives, felt a sense of peace and relief.

Why do you suppose Buddhism gave them a peace of mind they never experienced being a Muslim?


I have one more question – strictly just your opinion:

Do you think that Mohammad was en enlightened person?
Do you think that he was more enlightened about the human condition compared with Buddha? If so, what was the most enlightening philosophy that Mohammad offered to Humanity?




Thanks!
Michael

 

[Zakariya04]

Not bad for a religeon of peace? what do you say?


Weekly Jihad Report
(3/10 - 3/16) Jihad Attacks: 75

Dead Bodies: 344

Critically Injured: 415

Monthly Jihad Report
(February, 2007) Jihad Attacks: 237

Dead Bodies: 1716

Critically Injured: 2884



If this true-to-life image of Muhammad, the self-proclaimed prophet of Islam, offends you more than the murder of thousands of innocent people explicitly in the name of Islam and Allah each year, then it means that you are definitely a Muslim (or at least a well-known type) and this page is for you.

As a Muslim, you know that life is full of tough choices. Do you behead or not behead? Have adult relations with your buddy's 9-year-old child...? Take a female sex slave... ?

For followers of the Religion of Peace, it all comes down to knowing what Muhammad did when faced with the same decisions (based on reliable Muslim sources, of course). In fact, the more you know about the founder of Islam the better, even if you aren't Muslim.

Forget all those shifty-eyed apologists, trying to make Muhammad out to be some sort of "Jesus clone" based on a few obscure anecdotes. The prophet of Islam definitely wasn't one to turn the other cheek.

You want the truth? Think you can handle it? Well, here you are then...

What Would Muhammad Do?
(a checklist)

Would Muhammad...?
YES!
NO!
.........


........


.......

Dear Buffalo,

I hope you are well.

It is a pity you have not moved on from these tired baseless arguments as yet....

Forever quote you give me i can counter it with another quote, so whats the point? What you must undertsand iis that having to rely on translations does not always reveal the truth...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Take it ez
zak