Islam is a pagan religion

[WildBlueYonder]

The foundations of islam are pagan
• In pre-Islamic days, that Muslims call the Days of ignorance, the religious background of the Arabs was pagan, and basically animistic. Through Moon, Sun, Stars, Planets, Animals, wells, trees, stones, caves, springs, and other natural objects man could make contact with the deity. At Mekka, “Allah” was the chief of the gods and the special deity of the Quraish, the prophet’s tribe. Allah had three daughters: Al Uzzah (Venus) most revered of all and pleased with human sacrifice; Manah, the goddess of destiny, and Al Lat, the goddess of vegetable life. These three daughters of Allah (there is a Quranic verse about them) were considered very powerful over all things. Therefore, their intercessions on behalf of their worshippers were of great significance.
• (B) Arabs used to give their children names such as—Abdullah (slave of Allah). Clean proof was the fact that, Muhammad’s father’s name was “Abdullah”. Logical analogy here is—had there been no “Allah” in pre-Islamic Arab, there could be no Abdullah or slave of Allah in Arabia.

• In Qura’n there are at least a dozen verses in which Allah repeatedly swears by the names such as moon, sun, stars, planets, night, wind etc. It is a mystery why the creator Allah (?) should swear by his creations. Normally, we swear by the name of something much superior to us, such as we swear by God or by the name of our father (who is considered senior or superior to us). But we never swear by the name of something inferior to us. Here in the Quran swearing fashions of Allah (God) by moon or stars hinting us that Allah considered these things superior to himself. And this makes us to think (otherwise) as to who actually acted as Allah in Quran? However, in his explanation of why the Qur’an swears by the moon in Surah 74:32,

• In Islam many rituals performed (today) by devoted Muslims in the name of Allah are connected to the pagan worship that existed before Islam. Pagans practices of the Pilgrimage of Kabah once a year--the Fast of Ramadan, running around the Kabah seven times, kissing the black stone, shaving the head, animal sacrifices, running up and down two hills, throwing stones at the devil, snorting water in and out the nose, praying several times a day toward Mecca, giving alms, Friday prayers, etc. are strictly followed by Muslims today. Nobody can deny the fact that, all the above rituals of Muslim’s hajj today—existed well before the arrival of Islam.
From:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/skm30804.htm

Check these out too:
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/pagansources.htm
http://www.africanaquatics.co.za/_christian/_articles/islam_and_the_koran.htm
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Books/Torrey/torrey5.htm

 

[Ghassan Kanafani]

The foundations of islam are pagan

* If so , then Abraham was a pagan .
* Abraham did not worship deity's wich is required for Paganism .
Spare me the western-centric ridiculement of ancient spiritual systems .

In pre-Islamic days, that Muslims call the Days of ignorance,

That is because Abraham was a Muslim . The days you are trying to refer to are days that stand not in connection with Abraham , simply because Ismael did not represent Arabia and there was no "body of Christ" method to become a Muslim .

Mekka, “Allah” was the chief of the gods and the special deity of the Quraish, the prophet’s tribe.

Which has no relevance whatsoever with the Islamic theological concepts .

Allah had three daughters: Al Uzzah (Venus) most revered of all and pleased with human sacrifice; Manah, the goddess of destiny, and Al Lat, the goddess of vegetable life. These three daughters of Allah (there is a Quranic verse about them) were considered very powerful over all things. Therefore, their intercessions on behalf of their worshippers were of great significance.

Im sorry but no such Allah exists in the Qu'ran . I can show you pagan issues regarding Thor and link it with Christianity because a pre-Christian peoples worshipped it , you do see the uselesness of this all .

You can not even decipher Allah , dont bother hijacking semantics for personal ridiculing aims .

Im sorry , no daughters nor deity's here :

Arabs used to give their children names such as—Abdullah (slave of Allah). Clean proof was the fact that, Muhammad’s father’s name was “Abdullah”. Logical analogy here is—had there been no “Allah” in pre-Islamic Arab, there could be no Abdullah or slave of Allah in Arabia.

You do know that the Prophet decends from Muslims ? You dont seem to be aware of the Islamic era . Once more Abraham was a Muslim .

You think Muslim means some Mohammedan follower of a religion you discovered some years ago , its allright its simply your complete lack of anything Arabic .

It is a mystery why the creator Allah (?) should swear by his creations.

Dont bother as long as you see Allah as some "guy" you cannot understand the concepts you try to describe .

we swear by the name of something much superior to us, such as we swear by God or by the name of our father (who is considered senior or superior to us). But we never swear by the name of something inferior to us. Here in the Quran swearing fashions of Allah (God) by moon or stars hinting us that Allah considered these things superior to himself. And this makes us to think (otherwise) as to who actually acted as Allah in Quran?

You are not Allah and should set yourself not in compare as if its some "guy" swearing over things like your buddies do .

Your "swear by superiority" concept doesnt go since swearing as you do Allah does not engage in .

In Islam many rituals performed (today) by devoted Muslims in the name of Allah are connected to the pagan worship that existed before Islam.

No Paganism took it over after it has been the religion of Abraham . But again ........

Nobody can deny the fact that, all the above rituals of Muslim’s hajj today—existed well before the arrival of Islam.

Thats because Abraham existed before your idea of Islam came to be .

 

[Proud_Syrian]

what about the evil bible ?

www.evilbible.com

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
what about the evil bible ?

Boy, you are going to have a lot of explaining to do, when you meet St. Peter at the Gate in to Heaven, boy are you in for a surprise! Sorry, you can't convert after you are dead, at least you can keep Mohammad company in hell, oh and no crying either, because then you will be "Humble_Syrian"

 

[Ghassan Kanafani]

Originally posted by Randolfo
Boy, you are going to have a lot of explaining to do, when you meet St. Peter at the Gate in to Heaven, boy are you in for a surprise! Sorry, you can't convert after you are dead, at least you can keep Mohammad company in hell, oh and no crying either, because then you will be "Humble_Syrian"

Toobad it doesnt make up for your wasted life dying in ignorance .

 

[Proud_Syrian]

Originally posted by Randolfo
Boy, you are going to have a lot of explaining to do, when you meet St. Peter at the Gate in to Heaven, boy are you in for a surprise! Sorry, you can't convert after you are dead, at least you can keep Mohammad company in hell, oh and no crying either, because then you will be "Humble_Syrian"

let us see from the EVIL BIBLE itself who will really end up in hell !

'' But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire . " Matthew 5:22 Surely most of you have said bad words now and then , therefore according to YOUR Jesus , most of YOU will taste the Fires of Hell and are not Free from punishment according to Jesus !!!

" Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven . " Matthew 7:21 If Jesus is YOUR Savior , why would he say calling upon him as 'Lord' on the Day of Judgement will Not Save YOU ? Jesus even told a entire generation that there is No Escape from Hell for them, and what they have done will be with them: "..How can ye escape the damnation of Hell? wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood
shed upon the earth, from the *blood of Innocent Abel* unto
the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. *Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation* ." Mt 23:33-36

How can a Christian be sure they are saved when Jesus repeatedly says that with a sinning eye or a sinning hand, We Will Go to Hell , Jesus even offers a remedy by suggesting we cut off our hand or pluck out our eye to avoid Hell , this certainly leaves the listeners Unsure if they will go to Hell or not unless they take drastic measures : " And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire " Mark 9:47

" And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched " Mark 9:43 Jesus even says you will be cast into Hell if you do not behave in accordance with the Will of God :

" And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. " Matthew 3:10

" Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. " Matthew 7:19

How many Christians live undisciplined lives , producing bad fruit and expecting Jesus will save them ? How can they be sure when Jesus makes it perfectly clear they will go to Hell ? Jesus is saying Every Sinner will be cast into the Fire .

Where does Jesus say every sinner will be saved through the
blood of Jesus ? Even at the Supper table , Jesus said his blood is shed for _many_ not , all .

It even seems as though Jesus came to Warn us about Hell
rather than save us from Hell, Jesus came to give us Uncertainty of our Salvation: " I have come to cast a fire on the earth; and what will I if already it has been kindled? " Luke 12:49

Jesus also directly warns that if you do not obey him, you will be thrown into Hell: " Unless any one abide in me he is cast out as the branch,and is dried up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. " John 15:6 (also John 5:24)

According to the Gospel, it is possible to fall out of the Christian faith through sin; "For how can those who abandon their faith be brought back to repent again? They were once in God's light; they tasted heaven's gift and received their share of the Holy spirit; they knew from experience that God's word is good, and they had felt the powers of the coming age. And then they abandoned their faith! It is impossible to bring them back to repent again, because they are again crucifying the Son of God and exposing him to public shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

and that Christians are not fully saved until they enter the heavenly kingdom ( 1 Peter 1:4-5)

Even in the Old Testament , there is Absolute Uncertainty if we will go to Hell or not : There is a prediction in Psalms that the sinners will go to Hell, similar to what Jesus says:

"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the (nations)
that forget God." Ps 9:17

Does this include all with in the evil nations such as Germany in WW!! ? or America during Hiroshima etc.. ?

In Isaiah which we assume predicted Jesus , also predicts Hell will take even the people who are boastful :

" Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth
without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it ." Isaiah 5:14

In conclusion , "Let him who thinks he stands take care lest he fall" (1 Corinthians 10:12).

We see that Jesus did not come to remove _all_ sin, but in fact to warn us of Hell and assist us in receiving forgiveness, but certainly not removing our responsibility to obey the commandments "otherwise we will be thrown into Hell" as Jesus continuously warned.

Even at the sacrifice where the Cruci-fiction of Jesus was supposedly a action to forgive the human race, why would Jesus ask God "Forgive them fore they know not what they do" if the crucifixion was indeed the Ultimate sacrifice ? why would Jesus need to ask God to forgive us if the assumed shedding of Jesus's blood was in fact a means of atonement ?

Unless perhaps the cruci-fiction was not a ultimate method of
forgiveness and in fact we are very much in danger of Hell as it is written in the Old Testament and the Gospel of Jesus .

How then can we be saved if we are still in danger of the Hell Fire as Jesus warns ?

Allah (which means - God - in the Semitic Arabic language) gives us many clear signs in the Holy Quran to assure us we will be saved , Allah clarifies the Favors bestowed upon us and in return Allah only asks you believe in the Day of Judgement , in those Allah sent to us (including Jesus) and follow the teachings of the Quran .

" Those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and establish regular prayers and regular charity, will have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . " {The Holy Quran 2:277}

 

[chalcedony]

But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire . " Matthew 5:22 Surely most of you have said bad words now and then , therefore according to YOUR Jesus , most of YOU will taste the Fires of Hell and are not Free from punishment according to Jesus

You have no understanding of the words you read. Try reading the whole passage and not just isolated verses.
Matthew 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus was warning people that they could not rely on the Law of Moses for their salvation, that they were committing sinful acts just by these thoughts.

" Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven . " Matthew 7:21 If Jesus is YOUR Savior , why would he say calling upon him as 'Lord' on the Day of Judgement will Not Save YOU ?

Again, you have no understanding of what you read. Jesus was not referring to people who called Him Lord AND relied on Him. Jesus was referring to those who called Him Lord but with a falseness, those who hearts did not belong to Him. You see “Lord” and immediately assumed the passage referred to Christian belief in Jesus’ divinity. Read the part where “not everyone who says to me Lord Lord”. Notice that says that some who call Jesus “Lord” will get into heaven. Why? Because they are true believers and know that He is the Son of God, God Himself.

Jesus even told a entire generation that there is No Escape from Hell for them, and what they have done will be with them: "..How can ye escape the damnation of Hell? wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood
shed upon the earth, from the *blood of Innocent Abel* unto
the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. *Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation* ." Mt 23:33-36

You really must try learn to read the bible carefully. The previous verses clearly state that Jesus is talking about the Pharisees, Jewish religious leaders of the time who were obsessed with following the legalistic letter of the law of Moses and forgot to give their hearts to the Lord.
Matthew 23
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

How can a Christian be sure they are saved when Jesus repeatedly says that with a sinning eye or a sinning hand, We Will Go to Hell , Jesus even offers a remedy by suggesting we cut off our hand or pluck out our eye to avoid Hell , this certainly leaves the listeners Unsure if they will go to Hell or not unless they take drastic measures : " And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire " Mark 9:47

Hyperbole to make a point. A common practice in writing or speech. The point He was making is the importance of turning away from sinful life and casting one’s eyes upon the Lord.

" And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. " Matthew 3:10

And who exactly is John the Baptist talking about? A couple of verses above where he addresses the Pharisees and Sadducees.
Matthew 3
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

" Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. " Matthew 7:19

Read the passage in context! Is that so difficult? Jesus is not talking about Christians but of false prophets.
Matthew 7
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

How many Christians live undisciplined lives , producing bad fruit and expecting Jesus will save them ? How can they be sure when Jesus makes it perfectly clear they will go to Hell ? Jesus is saying Every Sinner will be cast into the Fire .

Where does Jesus say every sinner will be saved through the
blood of Jesus ? Even at the Supper table , Jesus said his blood is shed for _many_ not , all .

We are not to live undisciplined lives. The bible admonishes us to try to live a holier life to please God, but that leading a holy life does not give us salvation. Salvation only comes from accepting the gift of Jesus. Jesus makes it quite clear that those who reject that He is the Son of God will be cast into the pit of hell.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Mark 16
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 10
7Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.

It even seems as though Jesus came to Warn us about Hell
rather than save us from Hell, Jesus came to give us Uncertainty of our Salvation: " I have come to cast a fire on the earth; and what will I if already it has been kindled? " Luke 12:49

Context, Syrian, context. Jesus is telling us that hell awaits those who do not believe, not that Christians are going to hell.

Jesus also directly warns that if you do not obey him, you will be thrown into Hell: " Unless any one abide in me he is cast out as the branch,and is dried up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. " John 15:6 (also John 5:24)

Read the entire passage. You cannot understand a verse taken out of context from its passage. Jesus clearly states that those who do NOT abide with Him are cast out by God. Those who believe in Jesus are saved.

John 15
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[1] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

John 5
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

According to the Gospel, it is possible to fall out of the Christian faith through sin; "For how can those who abandon their faith be brought back to repent again? They were once in God's light; they tasted heaven's gift and received their share of the Holy spirit; they knew from experience that God's word is good, and they had felt the powers of the coming age. And then they abandoned their faith! It is impossible to bring them back to repent again, because they are again crucifying the Son of God and exposing him to public shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

and that Christians are not fully saved until they enter the heavenly kingdom ( 1 Peter 1:4-5)

A much debated passage. We believe in once saved, always saved. We believe these passages to mean that those who are true believers can never fully abandon their faith. We believe this because of words Jesus said.
John 10
27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[1] ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

In conclusion , "Let him who thinks he stands take care lest he fall" (1 Corinthians 10:12).

Please put the text in context. The scripture is referring to falling into temptation, NOT falling into hell.

1 Corinthians 10
12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! 13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

Even at the sacrifice where the crucifixion of Jesus was supposedly a action to forgive the human race, why would Jesus ask God "Forgive them fore they know not what they do" if the crucifixion was indeed the Ultimate sacrifice ? why would Jesus need to ask God to forgive us if the assumed shedding of Jesus's blood was in fact a means of atonement ?

1. Jesus asked forgiveness towards people who did not believe in Him.
2. Jesus told His apostles to forgive others. He was setting an example.

How then can we be saved

Allah (which means - God - in the Semitic Arabic language) gives us many clear signs in the Holy Quran to assure us we will be saved , Allah clarifies the Favors bestowed upon us and in return Allah only asks you believe in the Day of Judgement , in those Allah sent to us (including Jesus) and follow the teachings of the Quran .

The quran teaches you to believe in the gospel. The gospel states that Jesus is the Son of God and that salvation comes through belief in Him. How can you reconcile this with the words in your quran?

" Those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and establish regular prayers and regular charity, will have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . " sura 2:277

And who gets into paradise in your religion brother? Yet even then Allah is capricious and can change his mind. I know in whom I have my salvation: Jesus.
Acts 4
12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

 

[Markx]

Christianity more Pagan than Islam?

Absolutely!


http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/



http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa1.htm

More in detail view??

http://northernway.org/pagandna.html


Enjoy!

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian


let us see from the ... itself who will really end up in hell !

what a hypocrite! you don't even believe the Bible & then you try to use it to say that I'll go to hell? The nerve! Loser! That's between me & God, and there are a whole lot of Bible verses for me to live for & hope, but you are already lost if you stay a muslim, unless you become a Christian muslim?

 

[Walker]

Any Pagan religion is polytheistic. Islam is not. If so applied, your logic could implicate Christianity as paganism, because of the existence of a Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Some could even interpret dispensationalism as temporal paganism.

FYI, if you go back far enough, everyone's pagan. Please reference: Moses vs. Golden Cow, among other instances of paganism in pre-Christian history.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
Toobad it doesnt make up for your wasted life dying in ignorance .

ignorance? My poor Ghassan, I know too much, to fall for the king of lies, the lord of black stones, the reciter of evil verses, so don't worry about me, I'm more worried about you, I hope you are not 'tender', because the rude awaking you'll get in hell will make you cry & cook you till you're 'well done'! Repent!

 

[Walker]

Good thing Jesus wasn't this much of a retard, or he'd never have picked up any disciples.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by Walker
Any Pagan religion is polytheistic. Islam is not.

Not really true on three counts;1) many so-called pagan religions believe in a supreme god, 2) practicers of islam do several things that are straight from their pagan past (i.e. all the ceremonies done at pilgrimage & 3) just elevating one of your 3 hundred gods to the status of supreme being, does not make you unpagan, just a copy cat

If so applied, your logic could implicate Christianity as paganism, because of the existence of a Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

which tells me you do not understand the Trinity, or the concept of "ehud", as in "Shema Yisrael, Adonai Elohainu, Adonai Echad"

 

[okinrus]

How many Christians live undisciplined lives , producing bad fruit and expecting Jesus will save them ? How can they be sure when Jesus makes it perfectly clear they will go to Hell ? Jesus is saying Every Sinner will be cast into the Fire .

He stated that every tree that does not produce fruit will be sent to the flames. There is the fruit of repentance, the first fruit so to speak, mentioned by John the baptist. No one can produce fruit without God since only God is good. Jesus is not speaking just about prophets but about everyone.

Where does Jesus say every sinner will be saved through the
blood of Jesus ? Even at the Supper table , Jesus said his blood is shed for _many_ not , all .

John states that he died for everyone which would include you notwithstanding the denial of him doing so.

It even seems as though Jesus came to Warn us about Hell
rather than save us from Hell, Jesus came to give us Uncertainty of our Salvation: " I have come to cast a fire on the earth; and what will I if already it has been kindled? " Luke 12:49

There is the fire that lights our path and the fire that burns. From Isaiah, anyone who walks by their own light and not the light of God's servent will be burned.

Islam is not really pagan. The fact that they do ceremonies at a specific place does not disqualify them because the Jews would pilgrimage to Jerusalem to practice their passover. In worship, we are all in the same place, and so God prophesied that he would gather the nations and we would all go to Jerusalem.

 

[Ghassan Kanafani]

Originally posted by Randolfo
ignorance? My poor Ghassan, I know too much, to fall for the king of lies, the lord of black stones, the reciter of evil verses, so don't worry about me

Ignorant is the man who ignores valid argument and goes blindly with the lies his very identity is dependant on .

Your attempts to demonize are so pathetic and so obvious retracable in your reasoning behind all the ignorant statements you are making .

you'll get in hell

Im sorry I cant go along with your imaginations .

Now lets see your ignorance once more

practicers of islam do several things that are straight from their pagan past

Their origin , again , is Abrahamic . Adopting of such Abrahamic things does not make you the originator . Can you understand this ?

just elevating one of your 3 hundred gods to the status of supreme being, does not make you unpagan, just a copy cat

The fact that you so pathetically translate the moondog deity in the same 5 european letters (Allah) as the Islamic concept , is completely pathetic and already dealt with .

Show me where this :

is found in the pagan worship you speak of ? Was this one of the pantheon Gods ?

Reapeating ignorant statements does not make you look any smarter Randolfo .

 

[Walker]

which tells me you do not understand the Trinity, or the concept of "ehud", as in "Shema Yisrael, Adonai Elohainu, Adonai Echad"

Which tells me you're an idiot that can't understand broad strokes of thought. I'm pointing out that the aspect of your narrow understanding of Islam that calls you to percieve it as paganism is likely shared by others in regards to christianity. So their understanding could be just as correct or flawed (in this case flawed) as yours.

 

[Markx]

Originally posted by Randolfo
Not really true on three counts;1) many so-called pagan religions believe in a supreme god, 2) practicers of islam do several things that are straight from their pagan past (i.e. all the ceremonies done at pilgrimage & 3) just elevating one of your 3 hundred gods to the status of supreme being, does not make you unpagan, just a copy cat



which tells me you do not understand the Trinity, or the concept of "ehud", as in "Shema Yisrael, Adonai Elohainu, Adonai Echad"

If you can't see how paganised christianity is, than I feel really sad for you. You are showing that how handicap you are and how blind and brain washed you have became. You are denying all the facts and try to tell yourself that Christianity doesn't have Pagan DNA?. Rondalfo, repent while you have time and stop believing in what your church told you, leave your fanatic and radical views about others and accept the fact that your religious and spiritual leader Paul destroyed your Christianity and you are following a false religoin. Leave your church and use your brain while you have time.

 

[Michael]

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
The foundations of islam are pagan

* If so , then Abraham was a pagan .
* Abraham did not worship deity's wich is required for Paganism .
Spare me the western-centric ridiculement of ancient spiritual systems .

In pre-Islamic days, that Muslims call the Days of ignorance,

That is because Abraham was a Muslim . ..

Ghassan, usually you are a little more complete in your explainations. I'm not sure what Abraham has to do with anything? I understand that the original poster may have had other intentions (aka just putting Islam down out of ignorance) however, as an atheist I thought the notion of a religion (Christian, Muslim, Jew, Shinto, Taoist, ect..) being based on previous religous worship as quite logical. Taking an atheists view point and just forcusing on the original post it appears that Arabic peoples were worshipping in much the same manner before and after Islam was started. You seem to be saying that, this should be expected becasue Abraham was conected somehow. Yet, doesn't it seem just as likely, if not more so, that after the introduction of Islam these pre-Islamic traditions and ideas were simply carried forward. And that (say 100 years prior) there these were simply none-Jewish and none-Chrsitian in character (say pure-Arabic). I mean - even you mentioned Thor and its influence on Christianity and certainly we can agree to that. I'm sure the worship or Thor had nothing to do with Chrsitianity (orginally). So, yes, prechristian-European religions were incorporated into Christianity (as would be natural and expected) however are you not willing to see the sense in the same such things happening in Arabia? (or India or Tabet or China or Afria or or or) My point being that pre-anyreligion the "old" indigneous beleifs are incorporated into the "new" and that Arabia peoples probably had indigenous beleifs that had nothing to do with ANY jewish traditions or beleifs?

(on the side it seems most archelogist agree that many of the significant characters in the jewish religion were just fictional and/or based on other pre-jewish religions. Again which is what I would think is natural and what I would expect) So to use these characters as "real" seems a little to much?)

 

[Ghassan Kanafani]

1) Ghassan, usually you are a little more complete in your explainations.

2) I understand that the original poster may have had other intentions (aka just putting Islam down out of ignorance)

1 was pretty much because of 2 , I usually dont expect to speak to peoples in here to care for extensive explenation so I make a quick point and to those who actually seek understanding it comes of as incomplete , which it indeed is . My appologies . I shall try to explain it better :

I'm not sure what Abraham has to do with anything?

Muslims see Abraham as Muslim , Islam is is not seen as something new that came after Christianity but as the return to the true religion of Abraham .

This is relevant when he speaks of the days of ignorance , as he means pre-Muhammad . However from Islamic perspective this pre-Muhammad era is only temporary and is after a period that was not considered as darkness . This period can be considered Islamic as well .

as an atheist I thought the notion of a religion (Christian, Muslim, Jew, Shinto, Taoist, ect..) being based on previous religous worship as quite logical.

I think you have a little tomuch of a Judeo-Christian idea of worshipping , and I think there you can find my disagreement with it .

I dont know about Shinto but Taoism has a complete different function for worshipping , and how it unfolds and received meaning , but i do not know toomuch about it to make a clear judgement . Anyways the entire issue of worshipping has much potency for revision as worshipping appears in non-religious circles just as much as , perhaps even more sometimes , than in religious ones .

My point is that the relevance lies in that powerless deity that is
subject of worship , and exactly there you will find my denial of Islamic worship as practiced today in the Judeo-Christian manner , as reflecting of the intentions and meaning of the scriptures .

even you mentioned Thor and its influence on Christianity

Im sure I mentioned Thor but I dont think I used him ever in Christian context , but I did have an argument in mind regarding pagan importations in Europe in Christianity , for instance the word God in the different languages that is used within Christianity . I never got into this because I do not wish to use this in these discussions , it makes an argument of "disproving" Christianity some how and Im really not into that .

Anyways I got your point .

But now regarding Arabia :

are you not willing to see the sense in the same such things happening in Arabia?

I am not saying Arabic things that were un-Islamic were imported into the religion as happened everywhere else , I was merely disproving the specific issues that mr bigot pointed out that had been imported : like the name Allah .

This is because of the connection with Abraham , many things that one from a non-Islamic point of view would see as merely Arabic , misses the point that Islam points back to Abraham , and that Abraham had a son called Ismail of who is considered as forefather of the Sabean Quraish tribe of which Muhammad came .

these were simply none-Jewish and none-Chrsitian in character (say pure-Arabic).

Yes your point is understood , but you are missing out on Ismail here .

"old" indigneous beleifs are incorporated into the "new" and that Arabia peoples probably had indigenous beleifs that had nothing to do with ANY jewish traditions or beleifs?

And thats the whole thing , because of the Abrahamic connection through Ismail many of the things practiced pre-Muhammad are considered Islamic .

Another discussion is the dissection of that what Abraham and his intended and that what was practiced .

(on the side it seems most archelogist agree that many of the significant characters in the jewish religion were just fictional and/or based on other pre-jewish religions. Again which is what I would think is natural and what I would expect) So to use these characters as "real" seems a little to much?)

I do not believe that believe peoples were fictional because of the easy possibility of their existance combined with the even easier possibility of their distortion in scripture hermeneutiks .

We should never underestimate the effect of these .

Aside of that I would not exclude symbolical value of the peoples in question .

Anyways this doesnt change their usage regarding weither they are real or not , the message is real and to that peoples identify , or not .

 

[Markx]

Originally posted by Michael
[/B]

Michael:

You asked a good question. There have always been a debate among Muslims and Christians about Abraham. Radical christians, like Southern Baptists and other "Christian Talibans" thinks that Muslims worship a different God. My answer is simple, that Muslims worships the God of Abraham. There is a quite a history of Abraham. That is why GK brought his name up. I like you to read the following link and see the importance of Ibrahim ( Abraham) in Islam. It might give you some idea of who he was? And why is he so important. However since you are an atheist, I don't expect you to believe any of this, but *if* we assume for an instance that you are not an atheist and a follower of a Monotheistic religion, now if you read the following, it might make more sense.

http://www.emuslim.com/Ibrahim.asp

Another good link.

http://www.soundvision.com/info/hajj/abraham.asp

I just didn't want to take the bandwith so provided you with the above two links.