Is very finite number of ways that matter can be arranged?

[quantum_wave]

What does it matter how you orient molecules? What molecule will always be water molecule no matter how you turn it around.

True, but the OP said "the number of ways that matter can be arranged and shaped". I was invoking the fact that "the number of ways that a molecule can rotate on it axis is potentially infinite", and so there are a potentially infinite number of different arrangements if each different orientation is considered an "arrangement"?

 

[quantum_wave]

There is some misinformation in this thread. If you're working within a finite volume of space and there is only a finite number of quantum states for that space then the number of ways matter can be arranged is also finite. This should be obvious. You are perceptive to conclude that the number of paintings and sculptures are finite as well, just as the number of songs able to be written is finite.

Point out the misinformation so we can all learn as we go.

 

[RJBeery]

Point out the misinformation so we can all learn as we go.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. The potential wavelengths of photons is not infinite and the number of ways a molecule can rotate on its axis is not infinite due to quantum mechanics. The only way matter could be arranged in an infinite number of ways is if space itself was infinite. Confined space + finite number of quantum states = finite physical arrangements.

 

[quantum_wave]

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. The potential wavelengths of photons is not infinite and the number of ways a molecule can rotate on its axis is not infinite due to quantum mechanics. The only way matter could be arranged in an infinite number of ways is if space itself was infinite. Confined space + finite number of quantum states = finite physical arrangements.

Thank you for clarifying, and it is true the OP did specify a finite space.

However, though it is off topic, in QM it is considered possible that if particle being measured is in superposition of states until it is measured, and once measured the energy is disbursed into new states that are not yet measured, then that would seem to allow an ifininite number of possibilities when both the measured states and the as yet unmeasured states of the particles are considered, but let's not get into this here unless the OP agrees it is pertinent.

 

[Tailspin]

I honestly don't know if it's pertinent or not because, to be perfectly frank, I am not a scientist and don't know as much as you apparently do. I can't say if quantum mechanics is personal and not because I honestly have no idea what it is.

But what I'm hearing from RJBeery is that my fears are now confirmed. There are finite possibilities on absolutely everything and everything is part of a finite possibility. And unless something stops humans from creating altogether we will ultimately exhaust all possibilities, not just an art but in everything.

Is there some way out of this I haven't seen? It's just that I've been obsessing over this for the last two days and I don't know how I can go on with this hanging over me.

 

[RJBeery]

I honestly don't know if it's pertinent or not because, to be perfectly frank, I am not a scientist and don't know as much as you apparently do. I can't say if quantum mechanics is personal and not because I honestly have no idea what it is.

But what I'm hearing from RJBeery is that my fears are now confirmed. There are finite possibilities on absolutely everything and everything is part of a finite possibility. And unless something stops humans from creating altogether we will ultimately exhaust all possibilities, not just an art but in everything.

Is there some way out of this I haven't seen? It's just that I've been obsessing over this for the last two days and I don't know how I can go on with this hanging over me.

Rest assured we will all die before any of this happens. The potential permutations involved are simply beyond comprehension; the available art to be created may as well be infinite.

On a side note, I heard a guy once talking about "writing" a song using a computer which ran through all of the possible scale progression/ music sequences for Western songs. He could then, in theory, sue everyone for sampling*.

*the meat of this story is true but the details may be lacking

 

[humbleteleskop]

True, but the OP said "the number of ways that matter can be arranged and shaped". I was invoking the fact that "the number of ways that a molecule can rotate on it axis is potentially infinite", and so there are a potentially infinite number of different arrangements if each different orientation is considered an "arrangement"?

Yes, if looking at absolute position of individual parts, but relatively the system as whole always must end up in some energy equilibrium. Many combinations are simply not possible, or can not be stable for any significant amount of time.

 

[quantum_wave]

I honestly don't know if it's pertinent or not because, to be perfectly frank, I am not a scientist and don't know as much as you apparently do. I can't say if quantum mechanics is personal and not because I honestly have no idea what it is.

But what I'm hearing from RJBeery is that my fears are now confirmed. There are finite possibilities on absolutely everything and everything is part of a finite possibility. And unless something stops humans from creating altogether we will ultimately exhaust all possibilities, not just an art but in everything.

Is there some way out of this I haven't seen? It's just that I've been obsessing over this for the last two days and I don't know how I can go on with this hanging over me.

You may not value the possibility that there are an infinite number of possible art creations, at least not enough to look into QM. If you can give up based on a general statement about a finite number of quantum states in a finite space, then you don't care that much to explore the quantum realm for your self. But if you did care, you might find you are safe, and you won't be at risk of running out of possible individual creations, ever, at least based on the "spookiness" of quantum mechanics.

 

[quantum_wave]

Yes, if looking at absolute position of individual parts, but relatively the system as whole always must end up in some energy equilibrium. Many combinations are simply not possible, or can not be stable for any significant amount of time.

You are ignoring the creativity of the artist. Nothing says that the system created as art cannot be dynamic, giving off used energy and replacing it with fresh useful energy. Equilibrium can be avoided, lol.

 

[humbleteleskop]

I honestly don't know if it's pertinent or not because, to be perfectly frank, I am not a scientist and don't know as much as you apparently do. I can't say if quantum mechanics is personal and not because I honestly have no idea what it is.

But what I'm hearing from RJBeery is that my fears are now confirmed. There are finite possibilities on absolutely everything and everything is part of a finite possibility. And unless something stops humans from creating altogether we will ultimately exhaust all possibilities, not just an art but in everything.

Is there some way out of this I haven't seen? It's just that I've been obsessing over this for the last two days and I don't know how I can go on with this hanging over me.

Time. The time variable gives everything a whole new dimension of possibilities. Things are not only relative to their number of spatial arrangements, but also with duration of different time intervals those arrangements last. There are many different melodies you can play with only two tones, infinitely many, by simply increasing or decreasing duration of each note or a pause interval between them, or the speed their volume changes, or the length of the whole song. The number of different songs is truly infinite, but just because the time is infinite, and maybe it is also infinitely divisible, which makes it that much more infinite.

 

[humbleteleskop]

You are ignoring the creativity of the artist. Nothing says that the system created as art cannot be dynamic, giving off used energy and replacing it with fresh useful energy. Equilibrium can be avoided, lol.

Yes, combinations of "dynamic things" is unbound as the time itself. Although I think the OP question was originally only about static combinations or just spatial arrangements.

 

[quantum_wave]

Yes, combinations of "dynamic things" is unbound as the time itself. Although I think the OP question was originally only about static combinations or just spatial arrangements.

True. I hope Tailspin can get some comfort out of the endless creative possibilities. If not, I will still be here believing there is no limit in the universe, given any finite space, to the possible individual art creations if the dynamic possibilities are considered.

 

[Tailspin]

This sounds interesting but what are these "dynamic things" you are talking about? How can any finite space lead to infinite combinations of matter?

 

[quantum_wave]

This sounds interesting but what are these "dynamic things" you are talking about? How can any finite space lead to infinite combinations of matter?

Let's try this. Define the space that will be occupied by the art work, and specify if the art will be movable or fixed in that space, and/or if the art work can have moving parts, or can have sound, etc., and I think humbletelescop[e] and I might be able to describe some "dynamics" that will open up infinite possibilities.

 

[Tailspin]

Okay. For the sake of argument let's say it's a drawing on a standard A4 size of paper.

 

[exchemist]

I think it is possible to fantasize an exception to any rule. Are you saying that in nature there is no limit to the temperature that a black body can attain?

I am not aware of one, though obviously matter eventually dissociates into quark plasma or something and it gets rather exotic and rare.

But all I was pointing out is that the UV catastrophe, which you mentioned, does not concern any upper limit on achievable temperature, it is to do with unsuccessful attempts to account for the spectrum emitted by a black body - which can in principle be at any temperature you like.

 

[Tailspin]

Ok, I need to go to bed now. I'll check in tomorrow.

 

[brucep]

True, but the OP said "the number of ways that matter can be arranged and shaped". I was invoking the fact that "the number of ways that a molecule can rotate on it axis is potentially infinite", and so there are a potentially infinite number of different arrangements if each different orientation is considered an "arrangement"?

Try invoking a real scientific fact and then see what answer you come up with.

 

[exchemist]

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. The potential wavelengths of photons is not infinite and the number of ways a molecule can rotate on its axis is not infinite due to quantum mechanics. The only way matter could be arranged in an infinite number of ways is if space itself was infinite. Confined space + finite number of quantum states = finite physical arrangements.

Is that right? Obviously if the system is quantised then only certain eigenstates of the system can stably exist, meaning that only a series of discrete values of energy, momentum etc are possible. But might there not, nonetheless, be an infinite series of such eigenstates?

 

[brucep]

Is that right? Obviously if the system is quantised then only certain eigenstates of the system can stably exist, meaning that only a series of discrete values of energy, momentum etc are possible. But might there not, nonetheless, be an infinite series of such eigenstates?

The system is the universe so the answer is no. For a series of eigenstates to be infinite there would need to be an infinite source of natural phenomena we describe with that physics.