Is there free will in heaven / the spiritual world?

RedRabbit said:
I'm not really sure what to make of that. Seems like you're saying that god guides evolution. Which is a prime example of determinism, which is the opposite of free will. :confused:

What I was really asking though was if heaven is the next 'step' in the continous plan of god, what was his plan before the earth or all life existed? i.e. the previous step. Before life -> Life -> Afterlife. Or why for that matter is heaven the next one? 'Logically' there could be others before that 'stage' arrives and countless ones before this. The only 'evidence' we have for heaven being next is that people who have no evidence say so.

But if I'm guessing correctly re the evolution matter then I think I might have my answer and will leave it there.
Click to expand...

I think we have free will within the confines of what's given. For example, you can't rightly choose to be a fish, or to fly like a bird.

I dont think god is subject to time and space constraints as we are.

I see heaven as more of a resting place. The kingdom of Christ being the next evolution, on earth as it is in heaven.
 
Lori_7 said:
I think we have free will within the confines of what's given. For example, you can't rightly choose to be a fish, or to fly like a bird.
Click to expand...

I gathered that. What I inferred was that you were saying god was 'guiding' evolution. From amino acids to us. That we are the end result of a long thought out plan. We are after all 'created in his own image', are we not? That would be deterministic in nature. No free will allowed.

I dont think god is subject to time and space constraints as we are.
Click to expand...

No offence, but that's bloody convenient. It's also a logical fallacy. He can not be omnipresent and omniscient if you also want free will. Two things he would have to be if he was outside the constraints of time and space.

I see heaven as more of a resting place. The kingdom of Christ being the next evolution, on earth as it is in heaven.
Click to expand...

But that's in relation to god's will, isn't it? Not how we would perceive the physical dimensions of heaven.

Matt 6:10 "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."
 
RedRabbit said:
I gathered that. What I inferred was that you were saying god was 'guiding' evolution. From amino acids to us. That we are the end result of a long thought out plan. We are after all 'created in his own image', are we not? That would be deterministic in nature. No free will allowed.
Click to expand...

well, i have a really hard time buying that when i know i make choices every day.



No offence, but that's bloody convenient. It's also a logical fallacy. He can not be omnipresent and omniscient if you also want free will. Two things he would have to be if he was outside the constraints of time and space.
Click to expand...

why? just because god knows what you will choose before you choose it, doesn't mean god makes or even influences the choice. if god the father is law, which is exactly what i think the father is, and everything that occurs does so according to law, then the knowledge is just inherent in what god is.



But that's in relation to god's will, isn't it? Not how we would perceive the physical dimensions of heaven.

Matt 6:10 "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."
Click to expand...

of course it is. it's god. who else's will would prevail? lol. but it's my will too. i want an end to suffering and to be at one with the universe and my fellow human beings. who wouldn't? i mean, no one can supersede or defy the law that created and governs the universe. one could beat their head against it like a brick wall, i know from experiencing and observing the way we live now, but it hurts like hell.
 
I am sorry to inform you all there is no free will . Sorry there just is not . I know it feels like there is . Lori7 lets take it from a biblical perspective " All the hairs of your head are counted "
O.K. there are more bible quotes that support this too , but Me Bible is in the truck and it is raining so not now , The rains came early this year , looks like Smokey the Bear is going to get a vacation.
 
Lori_7 said:
I think we have free will within the confines of what's given. For example, you can't rightly choose to be a fish, or to fly like a bird.

I dont think god is subject to time and space constraints as we are.

I see heaven as more of a resting place. The kingdom of Christ being the next evolution, on earth as it is in heaven.
Click to expand...

fly like an eagle to the sea . Lake Missoula
 
What do you mean by "free will"? You are free to do what you will? Well others have the right to disagree with you, e.g. should you decide to murder someone. I'm sure the person (and God) would call that a sin.
 
Believe said:
If the only decisions you get to make in your life is whether or not to sin you may wanna get your head checked.
Click to expand...

Why?
God wants man to sin and has given us a sinful nature to do just that.
can you fight your nature? No you cannot.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Note that God says that all must repent.
If you cannot or will not sin then you will not learn the lessons repenting brings and will go to hell.

Regards
DL
 
Me-Ki-Gal said:
I am sorry to inform you all there is no free will . Sorry there just is not . I know it feels like there is . Lori7 lets take it from a biblical perspective " All the hairs of your head are counted "
O.K. there are more bible quotes that support this too , but Me Bible is in the truck and it is raining so not now , The rains came early this year , looks like Smokey the Bear is going to get a vacation.
Click to expand...

he can keep count of my hairs all he wants but i'm still the one who decides which color i dye it or which hairdo i choose to wear. i don't understand the perceived enigma with this. there are an infinite number of examples of how life is a bunch of choices amongst a bunch of givens.
 
Lori_7 said:
well, i have a really hard time buying that when i know i make choices every day.
Click to expand...

But I wasn't talking about everyday. I was talking about the evolution of life from individual atoms to complex organisms like us over which you have no choice if god is guiding it. A very complex pre-planned deterministic view if god is guiding it. Something I got from your comment about us being like technology. Btw, can I ask you, do you believe in evolution and what do you think is it's driving force if you do?

why? just because god knows what you will choose before you choose it, doesn't mean god makes or even influences the choice. if god the father is law, which is exactly what i think the father is, and everything that occurs does so according to law, then the knowledge is just inherent in what god is.
Click to expand...

But if god knows every decision that you're going to make in advance you don't have the freedom to change that choice. If you did then god would be wrong. I presume you're not going to agree with that.


of course it is. it's god. who else's will would prevail? lol. but it's my will too. i want an end to suffering and to be at one with the universe and my fellow human beings. who wouldn't? i mean, no one can supersede or defy the law that created and governs the universe. one could beat their head against it like a brick wall, i know from experiencing and observing the way we live now, but it hurts like hell.
Click to expand...

I was referring to the "on earth as it is in heaven" comment you made when I asked about what heaven would look like and you just quoted a piece of scripture that I didn't see any answer in. It brings up a interesting point though, if god's will does prevail what is the point of us having free will? If it's so we can make our choices to believe in him or not so he knows who is worthy to save I have to wonder why he didn't know that already. I mean if he knows everything we do and everything we will do he must already know who's going to be saved and who isn't. So what's the point of all this? And, consequently, what's the point of free will?
 
Signal said:
Is there free will in heaven / the spiritual world?


Provide reasoning and/or evidence (scriptural or other) for or against.
Click to expand...
there is free will everywhere

whether one is in the material or spiritual world is a merely a consequence of how it is utilized
 
RedRabbit said:
But I wasn't talking about everyday. I was talking about the evolution of life from individual atoms to complex organisms like us over which you have no choice if god is guiding it. A very complex pre-planned deterministic view if god is guiding it. Something I got from your comment about us being like technology. Btw, can I ask you, do you believe in evolution and what do you think is it's driving force if you do?
Click to expand...

like i said, i see choices among givens. i mean, you can't have evolution of life without everyday.

of course i "believe" in evolution. you can see it within just a few generations. i think the driving force behind it is god the father (law), but i also think there has been interventions of various sorts.



But if god knows every decision that you're going to make in advance you don't have the freedom to change that choice. If you did then god would be wrong. I presume you're not going to agree with that.
Click to expand...

think about it this way...imagine that you had the opportunity to follow someone around invisibly or undetected for their entire lives and observe them. do you see that they would still have the opportunity to change their minds as many times as they wanted, and you would simply be observing them changing their mind? it's like that. it's as if from god's perspective, everything is happening at once. he sees the entire picture. that doesn't change the picture. it doesn't stop the picture.

do you know that time is something that we experience uniquely, depending on where you are (in relation to gravity), or how fast or slow you're moving?




I was referring to the "on earth as it is in heaven" comment you made when I asked about what heaven would look like and you just quoted a piece of scripture that I didn't see any answer in. It brings up a interesting point though, if god's will does prevail what is the point of us having free will? If it's so we can make our choices to believe in him or not so he knows who is worthy to save I have to wonder why he didn't know that already. I mean if he knows everything we do and everything we will do he must already know who's going to be saved and who isn't. So what's the point of all this? And, consequently, what's the point of free will?
Click to expand...

communion i think. true love, which is something that you can't force, and something that is not born out of ignorance, but out of understanding and truth.
 
Lori_7 said:
like i said, i see choices among givens. i mean, you can't have evolution of life without everyday.

of course i "believe" in evolution. you can see it within just a few generations. i think the driving force behind it is god the father (law), but i also think there has been interventions of various sorts.
Click to expand...


Sorry Lori, I don't see how everyday choices you make can influence the evolution of life. I must be misunderstanding something here. If you're talking about your personal evolution fine, but evolution of life... :confused:


Didn't mean to insult you. Just got a feeling I was talking to a creationist, new earther and didn't believe in that 'godless Darwin'. These interventions you speak of are strange. Are you saying they act without god's will or knowledge? Separate from him.


think about it this way...imagine that you had the opportunity to follow someone around invisibly or undetected for their entire lives and observe them. do you see that they would still have the opportunity to change their minds as many times as they wanted, and you would simply be observing them changing their mind? it's like that. it's as if from god's perspective, everything is happening at once. he sees the entire picture. that doesn't change the picture. it doesn't stop the picture.
Click to expand...


But you wouldn't just be observing if you already knew the answer. It would be pointless. If god knew everything at once he would know the beginning and the end at the same time and would therefore know the choices made beforehand and in retrospect. i.e. He would know the choices you made before you made them and free will would be meaningless. You couldn't change it because from his point of view it would already have occurred. And, where does it say that god operates like this? Explicitly.


do you know that time is something that we experience uniquely, depending on where you are (in relation to gravity), or how fast or slow you're moving?.
Click to expand...

I do. But if god is not affected by the constraints of time and space like us it means that he has no end and no beginning. He is everything that is and everything that can be. Nothing can exist outside of him. Which means he is you and me and everything we do, including every thought and decision you and I make. He is therefore also free will because it can't exist outside of him and is therefore privy to the conclusions of your decisions before you make them. His very existence, as postulated, rules out the concept of "free" will.

And the fact that we do obey those laws and have a beginning and an end kind of makes me wonder what he was doing with the rest of his infinite amount of time. If put on a timeline, our existence wouldn't even be detectable against his infinite one. For an infinite amount of time, god seems to be doing very little.


communion i think. true love, which is something that you can't force, and something that is not born out of ignorance, but out of understanding and truth.
Click to expand...

It wouldn't have to be forced. If god is everything and not subject to the laws he created it is conceivable that communion could have been 'programmed' to begin with. It makes the prospect that we must learn something he knows to be a futile exercise. Like rats, we have to find the cheese. I'm not comfortable with the knowledge that the reason I'm here is to be saved from an existence I was given in order that I might find that I need to be saved from it at all. That's petty in the extreme.
 
Lori_7 said:
he can keep count of my hairs all he wants but i'm still the one who decides which color i dye it or which hairdo i choose to wear. i don't understand the perceived enigma with this. there are an infinite number of examples of how life is a bunch of choices amongst a bunch of givens.
Click to expand...

You think you choose Lori . Did you really ? If your the "Mother did you you have a choice in the matter ? O.K. try not being the Mother ! You can't cause you have been chosen. You don't have free will dear . You know damn well if you run you can't hide for the power will chase you down and make you confront the force that befalls you . Did Jonas have free will when the big fish swallowed his ass and spit Him onto the shore were he was supposed to go by the order of creation . Lori did you have a chose to not experience the miracles that lead you to belief . You did not ,,cause you are the Mother , if you had a choice would you live through it again just to be ridiculed by peer review ?
 
One of the greatest questions is do we have free will here, much less anywhere else?

That needs to be solved first, and I don't believe we are close to it. We feel like we have free will, but do we? Are we just a set of chemical and physical reactons (The same thing) and is the future therefore determined?
 
johnpepper said:
One of the greatest questions is do we have free will here, much less anywhere else?

That needs to be solved first, and I don't believe we are close to it. We feel like we have free will, but do we? Are we just a set of chemical and physical reactons (The same thing) and is the future therefore determined?
Click to expand...
If you can't explain what are the chemicals that just made you type that it tends to indicate that we are closer to free will than you think ....
 
I don't think that lack of an explanation is proof in any way. We just don't have the whole picture, and likely due to the uncertianty principle, never will.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top