Is The Theory of Relativity Fatally Flawed?

[Quantum Quack]

IN a way SR can be applied to our atomic vibaration rate iteslf.

As velocity increases the atomic vibrational distance travelled reduces [length contraction] the time needed to cover the original distance, dilates or increases.
But really why bother and just state that the atomic vibrational distance covered is less in a given absolute time. That being an Earth metric of what a second is.

 

[marv]

As velocity increases the atomic vibrational distance travelled reduces [length contraction] the time needed to cover the original distance, dilates or increases.

...and your evidence is.........?

 

[Quantum Quack]

I marv I was only suggesting that SR evidences could be applied in this manner...I perosnally have no evidence to support any of it.

If Time dilation or atomic slowing what ever your preference is evidenced as suggested by SR followers then it could be explained in simple atomic vibrational distance terms and not time orientated terms.
But as you can guess I am talking through my arse any way....

 

[Paul T]

But there are micro gravitational effects, particularly relating to friction. As to atomic clocks, intuition tells me that there are similar - call them sub-atomic level - gravitational effects. Any particle with mass will be affected by gravity.

You seem to be quite delusional in your thought. I would rather call your "intuition" as speculation. They are not the same thing. In my opinion someone has intuition only if he or she knows the matter generally. For instance, since I know nothing about how a dvd works then when I say I have an intuition about something related to it, my "intuition" is bullshit. It is called speculation rather than intuition!

A "second" in Denver vs. LA is strictly a function of the preferred measuring device(s). "Time" itself is inconsequential.

You haven't answer to the question. Is one second in Denver the same as one second in LA? I asked this question because a GF clock in LA after it is being moved to Denver will tick slower (a quartz clock will not). Please also note that based on GR, any clocks in LA (GF, quartz or cesium) will tick (a very very little) faster after they are moved to Denver. Therefore, what's ruled by GR on this matter has nothing to do with how the clock works. But GF clocks tick slower in Denver is not ruled by GR (not directly).

 

[Paul T]

The failure is obvious. Different mechanisims have different response to gravity. Your assumption that only atomic clocks are affected isolates the affect to one particular mechanisim or process. You are clearly referring to the affect on a process and not a change in time.

You failed to understand the issue, as usual. GF clocks and any clock used pendulum are affected by gravity; they work because of gravity; their tick rate change when the gravity change. There are many clocks which are not affected by gravity, such as quartz clock, spring clock and certainly cesium clock. However, all clocks tick rate vary (theoretically) with gravity. This is GR issue, not the same as the slowing down of GF clock when moved to Denver. You mixed two difference issues and argued that they are contradictory. Therefore I said you failed to understand the issue.

 

[marv]

Similarily, the first "device" for measuring time was the seasonal change, aka our solar orbit. "It's Spring!" coincides with our April. "Spring" is a reality, while "April" is a constructed metric for conviently measuring time. Altering the calender can't alter the Earth's orbit.

Here's where grammar, punctuation and spelling come in. I can't follow this sentence:

As velocity increases the atomic vibrational distance travelled reduces [length contraction] the time needed to cover the original distance, dilates or increases.

 

[marv]

You seem to be quite delusional in your thought. ... In my opinion someone has intuition only if he or she knows the matter generally.

in-tu-i-tion n. 1. A direct knowledge or awareness of something without conscious attention or reasoning;...

spec-u-la-tion n. 1. The act of theorizing or conjecturing;...​

I can say that I "know" that atoms and their component particles have mass, and by extension are subject to gravitational force, because it's been well proven. Otherwise, you and I would be floating off into space.

You haven't answer to the question. Is one second in Denver the same as one second in LA?

A "second" is a construct and does not occur naturally. How long a "second" is strictly depends on the device creating that metric be it GF, quartz, or whatever. If your clock device is ten minutes slow, you do not "correct" it by comparing it to something in nature. You reset it by comparing it to another clock that you consider more accurate.

I asked this question because a GF clock in LA after it is being moved to Denver will tick slower (a quartz clock will not). Please also note that based on GR, any clocks in LA (GF, quartz or cesium) will tick (a very very little) faster after they are moved to Denver. Therefore, what's ruled by GR on this matter has nothing to do with how the clock works. But GF clocks tick slower in Denver is not ruled by GR (not directly).

Try How Stuff Works. However, the author does make one small error on page 2 when he says, "Since gravity is constant at any given spot on the planet,..."

 

[Yuriy]

Dear Mavr,
Please, use whole your ability to "direct knowledge or awareness of something without conscious attention or reasoning" and tell us what you think about "vlindish manner of solution of problems". Your response will be very appreciated.

 

[marv]

This is a joke, of course, Yuyri.

I know nothing of "vlindish" as to who or what it might be. Not even GOOGLE could help:

Your search - allintext: "vlindish" - did not match any documents.
No pages were found containing "vlindish".

Perhaps you could try again.

 

[Yuriy]

Exactly, my dear Mavr!
It is exactly what Paul T was talking about: " someone has intuition only if he or she knows the matter generally. For instance, since I know nothing about how a dvd works then when I say I have an intuition about something related to it, my "intuition" is bullshit. It is called speculation rather than intuition!"...
I specially have chosen question about something that you can not find on Internet about, so you were unable to learn what "vlindish" might mean. And you testified that in such a case your intuition does not work. That was what Paul T was talking about...
And now it comes some explanation. The very good Russian writer once used in his book the sentence "to dvarcuvate by the vlindish manner". The essence of that was to describe something that people talk not knowing what they are talking about: neither "to dvarcuvate", nor "vlindish" mean anything known, they are just words created by this writer. Of course any intuition can not help you to find any sense of them. Because, as Paul T said to you: "someone has intuition only if he or she knows the matter generally"...
It is now customized in Russia to say about someone who speaks on matter he does not know well: "He dvarcuvates by the vlindish manner"... I guess, a lot of people in our Forum dvarcuvate by a vlindish manner... I hope, now your intuition will help you to find out who does it...

 

[MacM]

You failed to understand the issue, as usual. GF clocks and any clock used pendulum are affected by gravity; they work because of gravity; their tick rate change when the gravity change. There are many clocks which are not affected by gravity, such as quartz clock, spring clock and certainly cesium clock. However, all clocks tick rate vary (theoretically) with gravity. This is GR issue, not the same as the slowing down of GF clock when moved to Denver. You mixed two difference issues and argued that they are contradictory. Therefore I said you failed to understand the issue.

As usual you make false assertions. I understand perfectly. That is why I use that example. It highlites the fact that you must choose a particular clock design to make your claims.

Just how do you justify your confidence that a particular clock design proves time dilation is a joke.

I only proves the clock runs slower or faster as a function of enfluences on the clocks process and may have absolutely nothing to do with time perse'.

 

[James R]

Different mechanisims have different response to gravity.

I dealt with this previously.

 

[MacM]

I dealt with this previously.

Yes, most ineffectively, by fiat declaration.

 

[marv]

Yuriy, the dictionary definitions for intuition and speculation came from an English dictionary, not a Russian dictionary. However, there may be subtle differences in these definitions between our native languages.

Even though I have never jumped off of the roof of a twenty story building, I need not speculate on what the outcome would be because I intuitively know what would be the result.

And in the spirit of one insult deserving another, I suggest that you work a little harder on your English grammar. If you wish to try to provide instruction on English usage, start another thread.

My apologies to everyone else.

[/thread-hijack]

 

[James R]

Yes, most ineffectively, by fiat declaration.

Whatever.

 

[Yuriy]

Marv,
definitions are correct and are the same in both languages, your interpretation of them and usage of them are wrong. What firstly was noticed by some "native" educated guy, Paul T, who, I hope knows English not worse than you do, and much, much better than I do...
I only have shown (using some small experiment) the logical holes in your interpratation and usage of these definitions... You have participated in this experiment well...

 

[MacM]

Marv,
definitions are correct and are the same in both languages, your interpretation of them and usage of them are wrong. What firstly was noticed by some "native" educated guy, Paul T, who, I hope knows English not worse than you do, and much, much better than I do...

WEBSTER:

Intuition: 1) The direct knowing or learning of something without the conscious use of reasoning; immediate apprehension or understanding. 2) Something known or learned in thin this way. 3) The ability to percieve or know things without conscious reasoning.

Speculate: 1) To think about the various aspects of a given subject; mediate; ponder; esp to conjecture.

I think it would be hard for you to make the case that his example of not leaping off of a tall building is based on speculation rather than intuition.

Perhaps you should not put your faith in others simply because they agree with your views and rely more on the substance of the posters words.

 

[Yuriy]

I hope, every reader understands that a small conversation between marv and me goes not about definitions of "intuition" and "speculation" (as I already said: "the definitions are correct and are the same in both languages "), but about Paul T's remark "In my opinion someone has intuition only if he or she knows the matter generally". Such remark was needed, because definitions do not say anything about conditions when these phenomena work.
A small experiment, which I performed with mavr's participation, has evidently shown the truth of Paul T's position - "without general knowledge of the matter intuition does not work, at all". MacM, as usually did not get the sense of issue...

 

[MacM]

I hope, every reader understands that a small conversation between marv and me goes not about definitions of "intuition" and "speculation" (as I already said: "the definitions are correct and are the same in both languages "), but about Paul T's remark "In my opinion someone has intuition only if he or she knows the matter generally". Such remark was needed, because definitions do not say anything about conditions when these phenomena work.
A small experiment, which I performed with mavr's participation, has evidently shown the truth of Paul T's position - "without general knowledge of the matter intuition does not work, at all". MacM, as usually did not get the sense of issue...

Oh, MacM got it perfectly. You cannot work in the realm of realities such as jumping off building but want to fabricate nonsensical words and make up crap as a defense.

 

[marv]

The title of this thread is not Word definitions. Yuriy, if you cannot contribute, stop trying to hijack this thread.

Your constant and intentional misspelling of my name is an added insult commensurable to a child. Regrettably, you are the first entry on my IGNORE list.