Is the problem faith itself or the imposition of faith?

It has become too common now. Maybe it was Kierkegaard or like that. Anyway, I did find this:
The most dangerous thing in the world is to try to leap a chasm in two jumps.

Which I kind of liked. However, it has become so common because it defines faith as an act of belief. Reason can take you to the edge of action but faith takes you across.
 
I've found that many people have spoken out against having faith itself.

The persuasiveness of their hostility depends, at least in part, on what 'faith' is understood to mean.

At it's most basic, 'faith' means something like 'trust'. And if we poke into it, we'll find that everyone has faith in propositions that they can't prove, whose terms they often can't even define completely. People couldn't live their lives if they didn't.

Of course, if the things trusted on faith turn out to be false, then the faithful one might be more likely to encounter problems. If the faithfully trusted but false beliefs are widespread and somehow harmful, then social problems might arise.

One of my much respected authors, Christopher Hitchens, was notorious for nailing religion to the wall. Dawkins has done so as well. And Sam Harris, though more moderate in his approach, is still known for challenging the ideas of faith.

I think that all three of those authors are atheist polemicists, the militant atheist equivalent of evangelical Christian apologists.

But what is so wrong with faith itself?

Problems can arise if the faith becomes so strong as to be closed-minded, so strong as to exclude the possibility of error entirely. There's a variety of religious rhetoric that praises unshakeable conviction as if it was a virtue. Unfortunately, that can blind the faithful one to the harm that they are doing, putting them in a place where they absolutely refuse to acknowledge it. Think of Christians burning heretics alive in God's name, of communism's gulags and its 'dictatorship of the proletariat', and of Hitler's forceful but blind militancy and his 'final solution'.

Pathologies of faith very definitely exist, and they can become very dangerous.

But it's probably foolish for opposing polemicists to insist that it's somehow "wrong" for people to have trust in anything that hasn't been conclusively justified by facts and logic. I mean, how can the critics justify their own criticisms without calling upon their own intuitive faith that some things are right and other things are wrong?

(There's a strong note of often-unexamined and rarely-justified moralism in a great deal of contemporary cultural-critique.)

I'm not saying that our atheist-polemicists are totally wrong about their criticism of faith. I don't think that they are and agree with a lot of what they say. But perhaps they are a little simplistic and they might be shooting without aiming properly.

I completely understand taking a stand against someone of faith who imposes thier beliefs on others, unwantedly. But I don't understand why people challenge different religions without having been instigated.

There might be some kind of instinctive emotional desire in people to have everyone around them in agreement, to have everyone on the same page. That unanimity would strengthen group solidarity and cohesion in the small paleolithic bands in which human beings evolved. That's my speculation.

This concept has been applied across the board. Christians condemning Muslims, Muslims condemning Christians, Christians condemning Atheists, and Atheists condemning Christians. Of course, condemnation is by no means limited to my provided examples.

Perhaps it's part of being human, part of the ancestral human condition. If my speculation immediately above has any validity, then it might be based on human instincts that had survival value in small hunting-gathering bands, but might have become kind of disfunctional and counter-productive in large civilized societies. For the last 5,500 years, since the rise of the Sumerian city-states, and perhaps since the appearance of settled neolithic villages almost 10,000 years ago, the ability to coexist with people who are different than ourselves has gradually become inescapable, and thus of increasing survival value.

But why is faith in one belief or another, or in any belief, so widely condemned and challenged?

It always seems to be other people's faith that's being condemned, never our own. These kind of critiques don't seem to be equipped with mirrors.

What does it matter to you if one believes in God, an afterlife, etc, so long as they are not harming or affecting you in any manner?

If you are addressing me with that (I know you weren't, but it's a legitimate question), my answer is that I don't typically care a whole lot about what other people believe. That is, I don't care unless their beliefs start to impact me directly. Then I'll start to care. If they get into my face, or if they try to institutionalize their beliefs in the workings of society itself, eliminating my option to think differently, then I'm likely to become their opponent.

But ultimately, I don't think that I have all the answers about anything. I'm just feeling my way in this lifetime, in this confusing and mysterious place where I find myself. (The universe.) I don't really hold any evangelical doctrines about it, any form of cognitive uniformity that I want to impose on anybody.

For example, I have faith. I'm not Christian, Muslim or Jewish. But I do beleive in a higher power of which I have no knowledge of specifics... hence, "faith". But I don't dare proclaim that I am right or that others are wrong. And I have no reason to impose it upon others. To each their own. But yet I have still been condemned and challenged by non-believers and believers alike as to being 'disillusioned' for having such beliefs.

What is the problem with faith? Why is it NOT okay for one to have beliefs in one's own mind?

Everyone has beliefs. Even the critics of belief have beliefs. If they didn't, they couldn't make their criticisms. Of course, it's also true that not all beliefs are equally true or equally justifiable.

I guess that one lesson from this is that if we are going to claim the freedom to think our own thoughts, then we need to accept the likelihood that many of the people around us are going to be exercising the same freedom. Some of them are probably going to disagree with us. Some might want to argue their case. They might desire very passionately to convince us that they are right and we are wrong. That can turn into an egoistic power-game (one that we see a lot here on Sciforums) which introduces a whole new can-of-worms.

So it's unrealistic for us to expect to be able to progress through our lives without any challenge or disagreement.
 
Problems can arise if the faith becomes so strong as to be closed-minded, so strong as to exclude the possibility of error entirely.

Problems arise then for whom? The person with the unshakeable faith?

A problem is something perceived by a particular person; a problem doesn't somehow exist on its own, independently of a person.


There's a variety of religious rhetoric that praises unshakeable conviction as if it was a virtue. Unfortunately, that can blind the faithful one to the harm that they are doing, putting them in a place where they absolutely refuse to acknowledge it.

Sure. But the ones to have a problem with that are other people, not the person with such faith.


But it's probably foolish for opposing polemicists to insist that it's somehow "wrong" for people to have trust in anything that hasn't been conclusively justified by facts and logic. I mean, how can the critics justify their own criticisms without calling upon their own intuitive faith that some things are right and other things are wrong?

Exactly. These exchanges about faith tend to simply be a matter of one-upmanship.

The polemicists tend to expect the same unshakeable trust in their own position, as the ones they are criticizing have in some other position.


(There's a strong note of often-unexamined and rarely-justified moralism in a great deal of contemporary cultural-critique.)

Exactly.


I'm not saying that our atheist-polemicists are totally wrong about their criticism of faith. I don't think that they are and agree with a lot of what they say. But perhaps they are a little simplistic and they might be shooting without aiming properly.

I agree. I think those polemicists are not using their spotlight effectively.


Perhaps it's part of being human, part of the ancestral human condition. If my speculation immediately above has any validity, then it might be based on human instincts that had survival value in small hunting-gathering bands, but might have become kind of disfunctional and counter-productive in large civilized societies. For the last 5,500 years, since the rise of the Sumerian city-states, and perhaps since the appearance of settled neolithic villages almost 10,000 years ago, the ability to coexist with people who are different than ourselves has gradually become inescapable, and thus of increasing survival value.

Indeed. And with the loss of community and the rise of individualism comes the danger of effectual solipsism ...
 
You should probably avoid personal attacks such as this, especially when the very sentence in which you claim another person is ignorant has such blatant spelling and grammatical errors.

Also, you can't be agnostic and believe in God.

Ok. My mistake, that was still very ignorant of that poster. I have a distinct stance against religion. I do not know if God exist, I do not claim to know, but I believe.
 
Ok. My mistake, that was still very ignorant of that poster. I have a distinct stance against religion. I do not know if God exist, I do not claim to know, but I believe.

Once again you contradict yourself. For someone who say's that there are not religious or have no faith...You somehow still continue to exhibit those mannerisms. You can have at least the decency of labeling that "ignorant" poster their name if you are going to address them behind their backs like in conniving manners, Regards Saturnine Pariah. P.S. As for calling yourself
agnostic take another look at the definiton.
ag•nos•tic

noun
1.
a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience. Synonyms: disbeliever, nonbeliever, unbeliever; doubter, skeptic, secularist, empiricist; heathen, heretic, infidel, pagan.
2.
a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.
3.
a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic: Socrates was an agnostic on the subject of immortality.
 
It only seems appropriate that I overthought the question and googled too many words. Wikipedia has a nice page about leap of faith.

Spidergoat, for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_of_faith

ETA:
A leap of faith, in its most commonly used meaning, is the act of believing in or accepting something intangible or unprovable, or without empirical evidence.[1] It is an act commonly associated with religious belief as many religions consider faith to be an essential element of piety.

The phrase is commonly attributed to Søren Kierkegaard; however, he himself never used the term, as he referred to a leap as a leap to faith. A leap of faith according to Kierkegaard involves circularity insofar as a leap is made by faith.[2] In his book The Concept of Anxiety, he describes the core part of the leap of faith, the leap. He does this using the famous story of Adam and Eve, particularly Adam's qualitative leap into sin. Adam's leap signifies a change from one quality to another, mainly the quality of possessing no sin to the quality of possessing sin. Kierkegaard maintains that the transition from one quality to another can take place only by a "leap" (Thomte 232). When the transition happens, one moves directly from one state to the other, never possessing both qualities.

It is important to understand that Kierkegaard felt a leap of faith was necessary in accepting Christianity due to the paradoxes that exist in Christianity. In his book Philosophical Fragments, Kierkegaard delves deep into the paradoxes that Christianity presents.

The implication of taking a leap of faith can, depending on the context, carry positive or negative connotations, as some feel it is a virtue to be able to believe in something without evidence while others feel it is foolishness. It is a hotly contested theological and philosophical concept. For instance, the association with "blind faith" and religion is disputed by those with deistic principles that argue reason and logic, rather than revelation or tradition, should be the basis of belief in God.
 
Once again you contradict yourself. For someone who say's that there are not religious or have no faith...You somehow still continue to exhibit those mannerisms. You can have at least the decency of labeling that "ignorant" poster their name if you are going to address them behind their backs like in conniving manners, Regards Saturnine Pariah.

I quoted you calling you a ignorant sheep, I was pretty angry that you regarded me in such a manner as you did calling me a theist, or christian. Im sorry, I am unsure if you even were aware before now I exist here. Your not ignorant. I was drawn the unknowing part of agnosticism, I overlooked the part that states he is absolutely unknowable.

Are you familiar with my post?
 
Hmmm...quite strange..for the longest time i had the assumption that you were a theist. Well this a humorous outcome now isn't!. Are a Deist then perhaps? That would make more sense.
 
There's quite a large difference in expecting the sun to rise in the morning and believing in a present, loving deity.

I agree that there probably is.

To call them both "faith" is ridiculous.

I disagree with that part.

What makes both of them instances of faith is that they both are examples of belief in things whose truth can't be logically demonstrated. And while we are on that subject, logic itself seems to ultimately be a matter of intuition. How does one demonstrate the validity of logic without falling into circularity?

The value in using the word 'faith' in both cases is that it highlights the need for those who want to condemn belief in God while affirming their own belief that the Sun will rise tomorrow, to better clarify how they believe that those two examples differ.

I agree that the two examples do differ, but explaining precisely how they differ isn't a trivial problem.

All of our beliefs seem to involve some greater or lesser degree of faith. It isn't as if religious belief represents a separate cognitive category that's entirely distinct from common-sense or even from scientific belief.
 
Hmmm...quite strange..for the longest time i had the assumption that you were a theist. Well this awkard. Are a Deist then perhaps? That would make more sense.

The problem with deism is this.

According to deists, the creator never intervenes in human affairs or suspends the natural laws of the universe.
-Wiki

This is unknowable.

Deism holds that reason and observation of the natural world, without the need for organized religion, can determine that the universe is the product of an intelligent creator.

This is more like me. However, God can easily have evolved with the universe, not created it. My stance on God is very different from anything out there. I would love to summarize it and summit it to anyone who wants my view. I am heavily opposed to a one-track religion. The value of a fraternity is enormous, but if closed minded like Christianity then it becomes down right destructive to the faithful community.

Most important to me is we do not know God exist, for a reason. Thats really were my beliefs start to unfold.
 
I agree that there probably is.



I disagree with that part.

What makes both of them instances of faith is that they both are examples of belief in things whose truth can't be logically demonstrated. And while we are on that subject, logic itself seems to ultimately be a matter of intuition. How does one demonstrate the validity of logic without falling into circularity?

The value in using the word 'faith' in both cases is that it highlights the need for those who want to condemn belief in God while affirming their own belief that the Sun will rise tomorrow, to better clarify how they believe that those two examples differ.

I agree that the two examples do differ, but explaining precisely how they differ isn't a trivial problem.

All of our beliefs seem to involve some greater or lesser degree of faith. It isn't as if religious belief represents a separate cognitive category that's entirely distinct from common-sense or even from scientific belief.
In fact religious belief tends to follow the general rules of explanatory modeling. It just hasn't accepted that our own individual observations might be more reliable than those of an authority figure.
 
I disagree with that part.

What makes both of them instances of faith is that they both are examples of belief in things whose truth can't be logically demonstrated.

What are you talking about? You realize that stars don't simply blink off, right? You realize that planets don't just suddenly stop rotating, don't you? Even the sudden appearance of a star-eating black hole would take years to finish off the Sun.

There's no way for the sun not to rise tomorrow.


The value in using the word 'faith' in both cases is that it highlights the need for those who want to condemn belief in God while affirming their own belief that the Sun will rise tomorrow, to better clarify how they believe that those two examples differ.

Saying "the sun will rise tomorrow" is not a belief. It's an understanding. Now, if you wanted to qualify it with something like "The sun will rise tomorrow for me," then you've opened up a world of possibilities that could prevent one from being around to see the sun rise. But the sun will rise with or without you. (With or without yoooooooooou)

I agree that the two examples do differ, but explaining precisely how they differ isn't a trivial problem.

Sure it is. One is a belief in an invisible entity which is unfalsifiable, the other is an awareness of the heliocentric model.

All of our beliefs seem to involve some greater or lesser degree of faith. It isn't as if religious belief represents a separate cognitive category that's entirely distinct from common-sense or even from scientific belief.

Beliefs, perhaps. But not everything is a belief.
 
The problem with deism is this.


-Wiki

This is unknowable.



This is more like me. However, God can easily have evolved with the universe, not created it. My stance on God is very different from anything out there. I would love to summarize it and summit it to anyone who wants my view. I am heavily opposed to a one-track religion. The value of a fraternity is enormous, but if closed minded like Christianity then it becomes down right destructive to the faithful community.

Most important to me is we do not know God exist, for a reason. Thats really were my beliefs start to unfold.

It has nothing to do with them claiming to know the unknowable. You've done the same thing by saying "God can easily have evolved with the universe, not created it." This is just a matter of rejecting an explanation that does not appeal to you and replacing it with one that does.

It's spiritual masturbation, nothing more.
 
The problem with deism is this.
According to deists, the creator never intervenes in human affairs or suspends the natural laws of the universe.

-Wiki

This is unknowable.

You're misunderstanding Deism if you think this is a doctrine that can't be disputed. There are many Deists who believe that God might choose to intervene in creation occasionally, or even often. The idea that God doesn't is simply one that springs from "reason and observation of the natural world". In other words, because there is no real evidence to suggest that this happens, Deists simply tend to default to the most likely explanation. There is room in Deism for divine intervention, but there is also a stark contrast between the sort of intervention that is consistent with what is observed (and is therefore consistent with the Deist view), and the sort that many other theists like to imagine into existence.
 
What are you talking about? You realize that stars don't simply blink off, right? You realize that planets don't just suddenly stop rotating, don't you? Even the sudden appearance of a star-eating black hole would take years to finish off the Sun.

There's no way for the sun not to rise tomorrow.




Saying "the sun will rise tomorrow" is not a belief. It's an understanding. Now, if you wanted to qualify it with something like "The sun will rise tomorrow for me," then you've opened up a world of possibilities that could prevent one from being around to see the sun rise. But the sun will rise with or without you. (With or without yoooooooooou)



Sure it is. One is a belief in an invisible entity which is unfalsifiable, the other is an awareness of the heliocentric model.



Beliefs, perhaps. But not everything is a belief.
you might want to go back and see if you can't figure out your error here.
 
It has nothing to do with them claiming to know the unknowable. You've done the same thing by saying "God can easily have evolved with the universe, not created it." This is just a matter of rejecting an explanation that does not appeal to you and replacing it with one that does.

It's spiritual masturbation, nothing more.

When did I say I knew anything? God is not unknowable. He is unknowable if he so wills it.
 
What makes both of them instances of faith is that they both are examples of belief in things whose truth can't be logically demonstrated. And while we are on that subject, logic itself seems to ultimately be a matter of intuition. How does one demonstrate the validity of logic without falling into circularity?

The value in using the word 'faith' in both cases is that it highlights the need for those who want to condemn belief in God while affirming their own belief that the Sun will rise tomorrow, to better clarify how they believe that those two examples differ.

I agree that the two examples do differ, but explaining precisely how they differ isn't a trivial problem.

All of our beliefs seem to involve some greater or lesser degree of faith. It isn't as if religious belief represents a separate cognitive category that's entirely distinct from common-sense or even from scientific belief.

Who is the knower?

How can things be known?

When we say that we "know something," what exactly do we mean by that?


For numerous versatile ontolgies that are around in modern culture, there seems to be only one epistemology: a trival taking for granted that when one thinks one knows, one indeed knows, and that knowledge is somehow one's own doing, the result of one's own efforts.
 
In fact religious belief tends to follow the general rules of explanatory modeling. It just hasn't accepted that our own individual observations might be more reliable than those of an authority figure.

Your own individual observations?

What is there that you can really call "your own"?
 
When did I say I knew anything?

Really?

You said:
...However, God can easily have evolved with the universe, not created it.

...Most important to me is we do not know God exist, for a reason.

...God is not unknowable. He is unknowable if he so wills it.

These are all claims of knowledge. You've given God attributes. Perhaps you don't realize you've done this, but you clearly have an image of God that you subscribe to, and all others are rejected in favor of it.
 
MZ3Boy84,


But what is so wrong with faith itself? I completely understand taking a stand against someone of faith who imposes thier beliefs on others, unwantedly. But I don't understand why people challenge different religions without having been instigated.

Having ''faith'', and ''imposing'' one's belief on others, are entirely unrelated.

People challenge religion because they can, plus, today's religions do not have the philosophical clout, to show their usefulness, at least not the general institutions.
What we're left with are empty organisations trying to maintain a level of importance, which may have served well back in days when the world was a big place.


But why is faith in one belief or another, or in any belief, so widely condemned and challenged?

Because it is misunderstood. In the minds of many, it simply means belief in something without evidence. On a material platform, that is seen as madness, and that is the platform ''faith'' is being understood today. But that's not what faith is, that is to say, you cannot understand faith from a planned material platform. It fits differently with each individual, and is turned on and off according to each and every moment.


For example, I have faith.

What do you mean by this?

jan.
 
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