Is the Christian god an archmage?

[Medicine*Woman]

The Isrealites (Jews) have been persecuted throughout history. For some reason lunatics or deluded zealots hate them.

Because of this, it is no surprise that the people would invent Judaism, based upon earlier religious beliefs. Then, the thoughts took flight into Christianity today when it became popular (ie forced upon men under pain of death).

With freedom of religion, and tons of information, everything that is observable can be explained by facts. So, it is really hard to believe in magic and God. They exist in the unobservable realm of faith. So, why would a being demand everyone to believe in it perish, given this age of information? Why would a being demand people to be ignorant of the observable, instead choose the realm of fantasy? It makes no sense at all!

It would make more sense to believe if God demanded this, but was also observable itself.

It's the same argument that no one has directly argued in favor of, sorry to repeat myself.

I promised myself that I would always save a bit of room for God to show up and blow my mind. I guess I will, but the more I wait, the more frustrated I get of myself for entertaining outlandish things.

It will take many more years to be de-programmed, I know.

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M*W: But, you are on the right track, and I will say again that I admire you for having the foresight to question your own beliefs. It's not an overnight sensation. It does take a number of years. In the meantime, read all you can, and question everything you read. The truth is being revealed to you at your own pace to understand it. It's a process. Good luck with your journey!

 

[Adstar]

OK.
I'm searching for answers from my agnostic point of view. I don't believe in magic, but I'm intrigued by the idea of magic.

In restricting yourself in those defined strictures you put yourself in a prison.

So, I want to know what you all think about magic. I wonder how Christians view magic. If there is hope of God, then there is hope of magic and that is encouraging.

But you don't believe in magic. So how can you then be encouraged by something you don't believe in?

Above all, though, I think there are some serious flaws I'm trying to point out in the Bible regarding magic, God, and God's expectations taught in the Bible. The idea that a God demands faith without reason is maddening because (if God exists) he has created those who live by reason. And that would be unjust.

God does not demand faith without some reasoning, but the reasoning of man is limited and can never fully understand God, therefore there will always be an element of faith within our relationship with God. Those who seek to know it all before believing anything will never believe they will never have faith.

It is counter productive if God wants man to believe that he exists, at the same time being silent.

He has not been silent. As you have already been told He has left His message in the Bible.

It says in the Bible that God wants man to believe that he exists. And it also says that God will not give any more signs until the end.

Sounds fishy.

It says in the Bible that He wants man to believe Him. Not sure if i remember where it says He wants people to believe He exists. Do you have the verse?

So if you believe in God, then he'll provide evidence if he chooses?

To believe in God one must already have accepted the evidence that He has chosen to give.

Anything and everything observable can be explained by science. Whatever happened to you is explainable. For you, you choose to believe it was God that set the event in motion. For others, it is a random event.

I would like to see a scientist explain to me how i repeatedly saw the future. How did i observe the future? You statement of faith:"Whatever happened to you is explainable." has no basis in reality.

Things like faith and God cannot be explained by science, that's why we're debating here today. And that is why I pose these questions. My hope is to reach some sort of reasonable explanation as to why the Bible has certain ideas in it. My theory is that it is false, regardless of if God exists or not.

So be it.

The evidence I am attempting to gather is not being addressed by Christians here!

It is and has but you are choosing to ignore it.

With freedom of religion, and tons of information, everything that is observable can be explained by facts. So, it is really hard to believe in magic and God, and if God is omniscient, he would understand this.

I grew up in the same kind of society you have. Yet i believe God.

Magic and God exist in the unobservable realm of faith.

Another statement of faith. Sounds like it was drummed into you. And your repeating it parrot fashion. But i have already given you the "magic" i observed.

So, why would a being demand everyone to believe in it (or perish), given this age of information? Why would a being demand people to be ignorant of the observable, instead choose the realm of fantasy?

That’s why He gave a message through Jesus that does not rely upon magic or physical observation. It is a message that speaks of deep truths that strike the very core. That’s why people who have been moved by it do not need magic and something physically observable. Jesus said Blessed are those who do not see but still believe.

Please help and explain, because it sounds as if God is unjust or we have it all wrong, but I reserve my judgement.

I think you have already made your judgement.

It's like if I taught my son how to pick his nose, then demanded that he not pick his nose. We are supposedly a product of God. So, who's fault is it if I sin?

The important thing to God is ones reaction to their own sin. Does one embrace it or loath it.

If there is no God, then it's my fault if I sin. If there is a God, sounds like it's his fault if we believe the Bible.

If there is no God then sin does not exist. But deep down you know sin exists don't you. So if there is sin then God exists.

Look at Adam and Eve, they comitted the first sin. According to the Bible it was their fault. But, if God is omniscient, he would have known man would take the apple and save man from it. He failed to save his sheep.

Once they decided to rebel against Gods instructions they ceased to be Gods sheep, they became followers of satan wolves in sheep’s clothing if you like.

If a sheep ran astray we blame the shepherd, not the sheep.

And thats why Jesus came. For the lost sheep.

Sure, they had free will to not take the apple, but that's like dangling a piece of steak in front of a dog and telling it "No".

Something is fishy!

They did not take the fruit because they where after some fruit. They took it because satan told them that God was a liar and that they would be Gods if they ate the fruit. They chose to believe the lie and believe God was a liar.

Bottom line is I want to know a shred of reason why God would do things like this and yet remain justly. Things like Adam and Eve and things like creating me as a skeptic and demanding my unreasonable faith before giving evidence to satisfy.

I didn't choose to be a skeptic. I can tell you the events in my life that slowly shaped me this way.

First you say that God created you as a sceptic, then you say that events in your life have slowly shaped you into being a sceptic? Make your mind up, you cannot have it both ways, where you born a sceptic or did you become a sceptic?

I had no control over the events in my life, evil or good. Much of it as an innocent child. Much of who I am today is the result of my parents and teachers. What about God, and how come he did not have a place? Whatever the reason, it was wrong to be silent. If God truly is as the Bible depicts him, surely he would have touched me as a child and told me that it doesn't have to be this way.

Interesting. Abraham was a man before God came to Him. Same with Moses.

You experienced bad things as a kid? Maybe you want to believe in a fairy God who would come along and keep you from all troubles in the world. And because God is not like that you hate Him. Maybe your not a sceptic to the existence of God but simply angry at God for not intervening in your early life to protect you. Funny thing is i know many people who have gone through the most vicious child abuse emotional, physical and sexual and they have embraced the love of God as the only loving Father they ever had.

So now, after being a Christian, I feel like my brother betrayed me....or I can just dismiss the possibility of God, and that is a much happier position for me....unless he were to make ammends....that (if the Bible is true) would be the best.

Make amends? Sounds like you don't want a magical sign at all. Thats just something you use to justify rejection. Would it be true to say you want God to apologise for not keeping you from harm as a child? Is all this elaborate talk of magic just a smoke screen for a person who blames God for their worldly suffering? Who rejects God not because of the proof or lack there off but out of a simple: "I suffered when i was a Kid God and because You did not protect me i hate you and reject you" ?

So, are you going to say it was the sheep's fault? Adstar, are you going to try to argue that?? We all start as sheep, and if given a reason to trust a shepherd, would follow. So if the shepherd neglects the sheep, it is not the sheep's fault.

And the reasons you would follow God is that God will first apologise to you for allowing you to suffer harm in this world and then from that time onward God will magicaly put you in portective bubble that will protect you from all forms of suffering and harm. Is that it?

God does not and never has garenteed anyone a life without troubles. God did not protect me from the harm i suffered as a Child But God has given me the strengh and peace in my mind to take the suffering of this world. I expect to suffer more before i am through with life. I accept it as an outcome of living in a faulty world full of people who have knowledge of evil and sometimes some of them chose to use that knowledge on me.

It takes time to build love and trust, God (if he exists) would know this. It takes two beings to create a relationship. God (if he exists) would know this. So, where is God?

He is with me.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[swarm]

God is against magic because he isn't that good at it. He wants to get some more levels under his belt.

 

[jayleew]

Adstar, you are not being helpful, to me you sound defensive. Calm down and use your noggin.

Those who seek to know it all before believing anything will never believe they will never have faith.

OK. In the context of God's understanding, i'll entertain this concept. But, I'll take it all by faith if I have something to have faith in. Right now, God is nothing more than an imaginary friend.

He has not been silent. As you have already been told He has left His message in the Bible.

In my lifetime thus far, he has been silent. Why can't you conceptualize the problem that people have believing in God may not be what you believe? Sure, it may fit some, but not all. Everything does not fit in a little box.

It says in the Bible that He wants man to believe Him. Not sure if i remember where it says He wants people to believe He exists. Do you have the verse?

"Thou shalt love thy God with all thy heart, and all thy soul..."

How can one love something that does not exist? You would say, but God does exist. And I might say, prove it. We could debate this crap all night, and get nowhere. You are missing the point, i'll get to it with Adam and Eve AGAIN.

To believe in God one must already have accepted the evidence that He has chosen to give.

I can't accept this for the same reason you can't accept idols as representations of gods, aside from the fact God says no idol worship. The evidence is insufficient, so you don't believe in other gods.

I would like to see a scientist explain to me how i repeatedly saw the future. How did i observe the future? You statement of faith:"Whatever happened to you is explainable." has no basis in reality.

Nostradomus saw the future. Or did he?

I grew up in the same kind of society you have. Yet i believe God.

Why, because of your visions?

If there is no God then sin does not exist. But deep down you know sin exists don't you. So if there is sin then God exists.

"Sin" as in selfishness or evil can exist without God.

I know there is wrong and right, justice and unjustice. Ethics coexist with religion or faith and wisdom.

And thats why Jesus came. For the lost sheep.

They did not take the fruit because they where after some fruit. They took it because satan told them that God was a liar and that they would be Gods if they ate the fruit. They chose to believe the lie and believe God was a liar.

I agree, but think deeper. They took it because satan told them that they would be Gods, and God also forbade them to eat from this tree. Since God forbade them to eat from the that tree, why was it there in the first place. Why did God put it there to tempt the sheep he knew would take the fruit?

A powerful God surely could have roasted the tree and prevent the fall of man. By not choosing to do so, God shares fault.

If I had a rifle in my house and I told my son, "Do not touch my rifle." And then, one day he grabbed the gun and injured himself or another person. Would I not share in the blame? As a responsible adult, I would lock up the gun, and have the ammunition in a different place. Satan was the ammunition.


So, Jesus came to clean up God's mess?

First you say that God created you as a sceptic, then you say that events in your life have slowly shaped you into being a sceptic? Make your mind up, you cannot have it both ways, where you born a sceptic or did you become a sceptic?

If you believe that God can influence lives, then he influenced people around me, or chose not to. Either way, he directly or indirectly shaped me into who I am. If you believe in God and that he is omniscient, then nothing happens on accident. Maybe, I'm unfinished work?

You experienced bad things as a kid? Maybe you want to believe in a fairy God who would come along and keep you from all troubles in the world. And because God is not like that you hate Him. Maybe your not a sceptic to the existence of God but simply angry at God for not intervening in your early life to protect you. Funny thing is i know many people who have gone through the most vicious child abuse emotional, physical and sexual and they have embraced the love of God as the only loving Father they ever had.

I didn't say bad. I said I experienced events, good and evil. Both the good and the bad made me who I am. And these events were allowed by God. By not sheltering me from these events (good or bad), his stamp of approval is on my back. I am what I am supposed to be, by the will of God. So, back to my original question. Since I am what I am, and God knew I would be, why does God threaten to throw me into the lake of fire if I don't believe in him by the end. Where is the justice in that? And how much more work I could accomplish for him if God didn't play hide and seek? I am ready and willing to turn my life over if God is real. The longer he makes me wait, the harder it is to have faith.

It doesn't make any sense to be silent now. And, the Bible is not proof of God. Only God can prove God's existence.

 

[jayleew]

Make amends? Sounds like you don't want a magical sign at all. Thats just something you use to justify rejection. Would it be true to say you want God to apologise for not keeping you from harm as a child? Is all this elaborate talk of magic just a smoke screen for a person who blames God for their worldly suffering? Who rejects God not because of the proof or lack there off but out of a simple: "I suffered when i was a Kid God and because You did not protect me i hate you and reject you" ?

If I rejected the existence of God, I would not be here debating and asking questions. It would be pointless. I also am very happy in life, I am without a doubt "blessed". I follow the teachings of the Bible because I agree with its philosophy of life living. The philosophies and ethics contained in the Bible are enough to live a happy life if you accept all its teachings in unison. But there are some fishy concepts about God.

I don't blame God for anything for two reasons: He doesn't exist as far as I know and if he did exist, it was my own lack of faith or the failings of spiritual leaders watching over me. However, I am upset that if God is real, he hasn't called. Wouldn't you kinda be hurt if your dad never called you? Also, I don't hate anything. I even go to church regularly because I seek the truth, wherever it is. I have stopped singing in the praise band though a year ago, because I cannot sing things I don't believe. I even used to be a worship leader and Sunday school teacher for over 4 years. Heck, i've read the Bible more than maybe a third of believers.