Is the Christian god an archmage?

[jayleew]

In the Christian Bible, their god is named God. God is said to have untold and awesome power. This power is so great that God created the universe, is omniscient, and omnipresent. There are stories of walking on water, turning water into wine, causing all kinds of calamities, and invading thought.

This really sounds like Gandalf? I mean it sounds like magic.

So, if it were magic, why is God so against the practice of it?

Also in the Bible, God says that its followers are not to practice magic. Why is that? Does God want it all for himself? All power and honor to the God?

I'm not against a supreme being having all the power, honor, and glory. I am not against worshipping a being that created me. I mean what could I do about it? But, let's get it straight here. The popular belief about God is that it is perfect and just. But, is God selfish? It seems God's character is in question here. Or, is being selfish not necessarily immoral?

I side by this argument that morality is relative to the situation.

If morality is in question, then how the heck are we supposed to know what is right or wrong if we listen to a book (the Bible)??? A book is too black and white to fit every and all situations!

If I had all the gold in the world and I didn't want anyone to have any of my gold. Would that be an immoral act?

Something is fishy.

My conclusion is that if there is a God, then no one has a clue as to its character, or all the bibclical documents are outdated or false. If there is a God, which is it?

 

[Balerion]

Also in the Bible, God says that its followers are not to practice magic. Why is that? Does God want it all for himself? All power and honor to the God?

No, it says that because the authors of the Bible actually thought magic was real. Most people did back then, in one form or another, I'd imagine. That right there should tell you that even if there is a god, the people who wrote that crap certainly did not have any real information about it.

 

[wsionynw]

Not just then, I imagine some people today believe David Copperfield can fly.

 

[OilIsMastery]

Is the Christian god an archmage?

Duh... I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want Him to cast on you...

 

[Balerion]

Not just then, I imagine some people today believe David Copperfield can fly.

Well, you might be on to something there. Maybe we have an inherent desire to believe in things we really know aren't possible. I mean, I like to think of myself as a fairly reasonable guy, not too much of a kook, anyway, but I have seen Copperfield live...and I gotta admit, a couple of tricks he did left me for a moment convinced that the dude was magic...of course, I know he's not, but it's almost like a knee-jerk reaction.


Edit: By the way, there is no Christian God. Christianity is simply reformed Judaism, and they worship the same evil being.

 

[swarm]

The xtian god is actually just a 9th level mage, but he has good press.

 

[lightgigantic]

In the Christian Bible, their god is named God. God is said to have untold and awesome power. This power is so great that God created the universe, is omniscient, and omnipresent. There are stories of walking on water, turning water into wine, causing all kinds of calamities, and invading thought.

This really sounds like Gandalf? I mean it sounds like magic.

So, if it were magic, why is God so against the practice of it?

Also in the Bible, God says that its followers are not to practice magic. Why is that? Does God want it all for himself? All power and honor to the God?

the idea is that devotion to god can get waylaid by mystical pursuits, much like it can get waylaid by philosophy or fruitive activities - a key symptom of getting waylaid is to be constantly striving for personal honour etc

I'm not against a supreme being having all the power, honor, and glory. I am not against worshipping a being that created me. I mean what could I do about it? But, let's get it straight here. The popular belief about God is that it is perfect and just. But, is God selfish? It seems God's character is in question here. Or, is being selfish not necessarily immoral?

perhaps at this point we could ask what moral requirement do you have to possess power.

I side by this argument that morality is relative to the situation.

so when you have a situation that all things are relative to (namely god), what transpires?

If morality is in question, then how the heck are we supposed to know what is right or wrong if we listen to a book (the Bible)??? A book is too black and white to fit every and all situations!

therefore a certain class of person can distinguish between a general principle and how it can be maintained in numerous different circumstances.

For instance if one knows that it is wrong to kill someone for no reason, they will know it is wrong to kill them with a knife, with a stick, with a piano, etc etc

If I had all the gold in the world and I didn't want anyone to have any of my gold. Would that be an immoral act?
and

Something is fishy.

so if you had $100, and don't give it to me, you are fishy too?

My conclusion is that if there is a God, then no one has a clue as to its character, or all the bibclical documents are outdated or false. If there is a God, which is it?

your conclusion doesn't follow your introductory points

 

[Adstar]

"Also in the Bible, God says that its followers are not to practice magic."

And His followers believe He has their best interests in mind. It is for our good that we take no part in such activities.

That kind of makes the rest of your post irrelevant for followers of God. The rest of your post is simply making an allegation that Gods motives for giving this directive are impure. An allegation based on no facts what so ever.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[jayleew]

And His followers believe He has their best interests in mind. It is for our good that we take no part in such activities.

That kind of makes the rest of your post irrelevant for followers of God. The rest of your post is simply making an allegation that Gods motives for giving this directive are impure. An allegation based on no facts what so ever.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I'm actually hoping to get on topic. That is, in the Christian view, God is and God accomplishes some things with supernatural (ie magical) powers. So, how can a Christian renounce the existence of magic and yet retain the existence of a being who possesses magical qualities.

Since there is no evidence of real magic, how can we believe God has these powers, or exists at all? Stories upon stories exist are in the Bible, but in the age of information, not a peep of magical happening. You can't tell me that if God exists he chooses not to use his powers anymore. That is shooting himself in the foot. It is his powers that can encourage or discourage people on the path God thinks we should follow (and hopefully that would be to him).

God chose not to give a sign to the Pharisee's. Is that because it would have fallen on deaf ears? What about the seekers today like me who want the truth and are willing to accept evidence.

If one of God's goals is to win the heart and soul of man, he's doing a crappy job of wooing. It's like the silent treatment from a loved one....only you know they exist because they weren't always silent. How can physical man be expected to see the unseeable if God does not exist in our realm of existence?? Then, God puts the threat of death behind the expectation.

That is outrageous. Let's see some magic, then i'll believe. Shoot, I'd settle for a postcard dropped from an empty sky.

The truth I see is that most Christians believe in anything paranormal (if they dont' they should). It is illogical to believe in a paranormal God and not all things paranormal. I know there is a lot of brainwashing of children...for good or evil, it remains to be seen.

My whole thought behind this thread was to classify what God is. If God is a magician, and he exists, it would be cool to know that magic is real. We all know it's not, even some Christians I know will tell you the same...but, in the next breath talk about how God caused hail to burn like fire on the ground for Moses.

If God is real, then he's been a jerk to me.

 

[Adstar]

I'm actually hoping to get on topic. That is, in the Christian view, God is and God accomplishes some things with supernatural (ie magical) powers. So, how can a Christian renounce the existence of magic and yet retain the existence of a being who possesses magical qualities.

We do not renounce magic, We share Gods guidance that using magic is not good for humans.

Since there is no evidence of real magic, how can we believe God has these powers, or exists at all?

If you don't believe magic exist then why post on this subject at all? Weird.

Stories upon stories exist are in the Bible, but in the age of information, not a peep of magical happening. You can't tell me that if God exists he chooses not to use his powers anymore. That is shooting himself in the foot.

How does it shoot God in the foot not to use magic? Gods message has been produced and given, there is no need for magic anymore. When the message was given first then magic was given as a sign to establish that the message was from God. But once the Word if established and known then there is no reason for magic because the Word stands on it's own.

Also many people have experienced happenings to this day. I being one of them. I have seen glimpses of the future and i know that the future is already set. This revelation is a form of what you call magic. But it was not given as a means to help me believe in God but as a gift from God to a believer to help me grow in wisdom.

It is his powers that can encourage or discourage people on the path God thinks we should follow (and hopefully that would be to him).

He has given different signs at different times for different reasons. In these latter days He has given signs to encourage those who are already following His Way.

God chose not to give a sign to the Pharisee's. Is that because it would have fallen on deaf ears? What about the seekers today like me who want the truth and are willing to accept evidence.

He did give signs to them But when they saw it they declared that Jesus did His miracles through the power of Beelzebub the ruler of demons.

Matthew 12
22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and[e] mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”
24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

If one of God's goals is to win the heart and soul of man, he's doing a crappy job of wooing. It's like the silent treatment from a loved one....only you know they exist because they weren't always silent. How can physical man be expected to see the unseeable if God does not exist in our realm of existence?? Then, God puts the threat of death behind the expectation.

God Has produced a beautiful Love letter called the Bible with all you need to know to make Him more real than anything. But a disbelieving people seek signs. If you reject the message, the love of the truth. Does God want you?

That is outrageous. Let's see some magic, then i'll believe. Shoot, I'd settle for a postcard dropped from an empty sky.

Then you are not attracted to the thing that God wants to be used to attract you. His Word.

The truth I see is that most Christians believe in anything paranormal (if they dont' they should). It is illogical to believe in a paranormal God and not all things paranormal. I know there is a lot of brainwashing of children...for good or evil, it remains to be seen.

I believe in seances and mediums and things mentioned in the Bible. I believe they exist. There are a lot of fakes i know but i do not doubt that genuine ones exist and can call up the dead. But i trust in Gods guidance and do not seek their services.

My whole thought behind this thread was to classify what God is. If God is a magician, and he exists, it would be cool to know that magic is real.

God is God and Miracles do happen His powers do exist, I have experienced them personally. But they are not important in relation to Salvation which needs a personal response to the Words of God not the signs and wonders.

We all know it's not, even some Christians I know will tell you the same...but, in the next breath talk about how God caused hail to burn like fire on the ground for Moses.

If God is real, then he's been a jerk to me.

That’s your judgment on God. i hope one day you regret making it and go to him with a contrite spirit.

Oh and Moses did not have access the Message of Jesus. You do.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Leo Volont]

The problem with unschooled Skepticism, in regards to Christianity, is that it is, on both sides so Primitive.

The Bible, was largely Primitive, and even when it was published, this shortcoming was largely recognized. So there was about a Thousand Years of Scholarship applied to the Bible... some horrible (finding ways of justifying Paul, who, honestly, is unjustifiable, by any Moral Standard) but some rather enlightened. But all of this was tossed out with the Victory of Protestantism over Catholicism. So we never encounter any Atheist arguing against the Height and Breadth of High Medievel Scholasticism. No, they go back to criticizing Pre-Literate Tribal Judaism.

Honestly, the best work in Theology has been accomplished by the Sanskrit Traditions of India. The Sanskrit Theologians have never held still, overly protecting their Status Quo... or at least they never successfully suppressed dissenting views that were subsequently allowed to become the New Status Quo. Their scholarship is quite imposing.

But, yes, amateur Atheists from the West would certainly rather pit themselves against the Religions of ignorant illiterate fisherman and shepherds than against anybody who can actually read, write and think about God and Religion.

In the Christian Bible, their god is named God. God is said to have untold and awesome power. This power is so great that God created the universe, is omniscient, and omnipresent. There are stories of walking on water, turning water into wine, causing all kinds of calamities, and invading thought.

This really sounds like Gandalf? I mean it sounds like magic.

So, if it were magic, why is God so against the practice of it?

Also in the Bible, God says that its followers are not to practice magic. Why is that? Does God want it all for himself? All power and honor to the God?

I'm not against a supreme being having all the power, honor, and glory. I am not against worshipping a being that created me. I mean what could I do about it? But, let's get it straight here. The popular belief about God is that it is perfect and just. But, is God selfish? It seems God's character is in question here. Or, is being selfish not necessarily immoral?

I side by this argument that morality is relative to the situation.

If morality is in question, then how the heck are we supposed to know what is right or wrong if we listen to a book (the Bible)??? A book is too black and white to fit every and all situations!

If I had all the gold in the world and I didn't want anyone to have any of my gold. Would that be an immoral act?

Something is fishy.

My conclusion is that if there is a God, then no one has a clue as to its character, or all the bibclical documents are outdated or false. If there is a God, which is it?

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

The problem with unschooled Skepticism, in regards to Christianity, is that it is, on both sides so Primitive.

The Bible, was largely Primitive, and even when it was published, this shortcoming was largely recognized. So there was about a Thousand Years of Scholarship applied to the Bible... some horrible (finding ways of justifying Paul, who, honestly, is unjustifiable, by any Moral Standard) but some rather enlightened. But all of this was tossed out with the Victory of Protestantism over Catholicism. So we never encounter any Atheist arguing against the Height and Breadth of High Medievel Scholasticism. No, they go back to criticizing Pre-Literate Tribal Judaism.

Honestly, the best work in Theology has been accomplished by the Sanskrit Traditions of India. The Sanskrit Theologians have never held still, overly protecting their Status Quo... or at least they never successfully suppressed dissenting views that were subsequently allowed to become the New Status Quo. Their scholarship is quite imposing.

But, yes, amateur Atheists from the West would certainly rather pit themselves against the Religions of ignorant illiterate fisherman and shepherds than against anybody who can actually read, write and think about God and Religion.

If there was a thousand years of scholarship applied to the Holy Babble, it wouldn't be the mess it is now. If what the average atheist in Europe, Australia, Canada or the USA knows now is a 10 & Pre-Literate Tribal Judaism is a 1, the Height and Breadth of High Medievel Scholasticism would be a 3.
There's no such thing as an amateur atheist.
To be an atheist, there is no obligation to or any lack of responsibility if 1 doesn't study religion. The average atheist tho has studied religion much more than the average theist.

 

[OilIsMastery]

The xtian god is actually just a 9th level mage, but he has good press.

His level is infinite. The LORD is hax.

 

[OilIsMastery]

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

Those are portraits of Zeus.

 

[Balerion]

Those are portraits of Zeus.

He doesn't know that. As far as he's concerned, God is a white biker-looking dude.

 

[jayleew]

The Isrealites (Jews) have been persecuted throughout history. For some reason lunatics or deluded zealots hate them.

Because of this, it is no surprise that the people would invent Judaism, based upon earlier religious beliefs. Then, the thoughts took flight into Christianity today when it became popular (ie forced upon men under pain of death).

With freedom of religion, and tons of information, everything that is observable can be explained by facts. So, it is really hard to believe in magic and God. They exist in the unobservable realm of faith. So, why would a being demand everyone to believe in it perish, given this age of information? Why would a being demand people to be ignorant of the observable, instead choose the realm of fantasy? It makes no sense at all!

It would make more sense to believe if God demanded this, but was also observable itself.

It's the same argument that no one has directly argued in favor of, sorry to repeat myself.

I promised myself that I would always save a bit of room for God to show up and blow my mind. I guess I will, but the more I wait, the more frustrated I get of myself for entertaining outlandish things.

It will take many more years to be de-programmed, I know.

 

[Adstar]

The Isrealites (Jews) have been persecuted throughout history. For some reason lunatics or deluded zealots hate them.

Because of this, it is no surprise that the people would invent Judaism, based upon earlier religious beliefs. Then, the thoughts took flight into Christianity today when it became popular (ie forced upon men under pain of death).

With freedom of religion, and tons of information, everything that is observable can be explained by facts. So, it is really hard to believe in magic and God. They exist in the unobservable realm of faith. So, why would a being demand everyone to believe in it perish, given this age of information? Why would a being demand people to be ignorant of the observable, instead choose the realm of fantasy? It makes no sense at all!

It would make more sense to believe if God demanded this, but was also observable itself.

It's the same argument that no one has directly argued in favor of, sorry to repeat myself.

I promised myself that I would always save a bit of room for God to show up and blow my mind. I guess I will, but the more I wait, the more frustrated I get of myself for entertaining outlandish things.

It will take many more years to be de-programmed, I know.

That's it totally ignore the answers given and restate the position as if nothing had been said at all.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

You don't like people imitating you?

 

[jayleew]

We do not renounce magic, We share Gods guidance that using magic is not good for humans.

OK.

If you don't believe magic exist then why post on this subject at all? Weird.

I'm searching for answers from my agnostic point of view. I don't believe in magic, but I'm intrigued by the idea of magic. So, I want to know what you all think about magic. I wonder how Christians view magic. If there is hope of God, then there is hope of magic and that is encouraging.

Above all, though, I think there are some serious flaws I'm trying to point out in the Bible regarding magic, God, and God's expectations taught in the Bible. The idea that a God demands faith without reason is maddening because (if God exists) he has created those who live by reason. And that would be unjust.

How does it shoot God in the foot not to use magic? Gods message has been produced and given, there is no need for magic anymore. When the message was given first then magic was given as a sign to establish that the message was from God. But once the Word if established and known then there is no reason for magic because the Word stands on it's own.

It is counter productive if God wants man to believe that he exists, at the same time being silent.

It says in the Bible that God wants man to believe that he exists. And it also says that God will not give any more signs until the end.

Sounds fishy.

Also many people have experienced happenings to this day. I being one of them. I have seen glimpses of the future and i know that the future is already set. This revelation is a form of what you call magic. But it was not given as a means to help me believe in God but as a gift from God to a believer to help me grow in wisdom.

So if you believe in God, then he'll provide evidence if he chooses? Anything and everything observable can be explained by science. Whatever happened to you is explainable. For you, you choose to believe it was God that set the event in motion. For others, it is a random event.

Things like faith and God cannot be explained by science, that's why we're debating here today. And that is why I pose these questions. My hope is to reach some sort of reasonable explanation as to why the Bible has certain ideas in it. My theory is that it is false, regardless of if God exists or not.

The evidence I am attempting to gather is not being addressed by Christians here!

With freedom of religion, and tons of information, everything that is observable can be explained by facts. So, it is really hard to believe in magic and God, and if God is omniscient, he would understand this.

Magic and God exist in the unobservable realm of faith. So, why would a being demand everyone to believe in it (or perish), given this age of information? Why would a being demand people to be ignorant of the observable, instead choose the realm of fantasy?

Please help and explain, because it sounds as if God is unjust or we have it all wrong, but I reserve my judgement.

It's like if I taught my son how to pick his nose, then demanded that he not pick his nose. We are supposedly a product of God. So, who's fault is it if I sin?

If there is no God, then it's my fault if I sin. If there is a God, sounds like it's his fault if we believe the Bible.

Look at Adam and Eve, they comitted the first sin. According to the Bible it was their fault. But, if God is omniscient, he would have known man would take the apple and save man from it. He failed to save his sheep.

If a sheep ran astray we blame the shepherd, not the sheep.

Sure, they had free will to not take the apple, but that's like dangling a piece of steak in front of a dog and telling it "No".

Something is fishy!

Ok, I went off topic....

Bottom line is I want to know a shred of reason why God would do things like this and yet remain justly. Things like Adam and Eve and things like creating me as a skeptic and demanding my unreasonable faith before giving evidence to satisfy.

I didn't choose to be a skeptic. I can tell you the events in my life that slowly shaped me this way. I had no control over the events in my life, evil or good. Much of it as an innocent child. Much of who I am today is the result of my parents and teachers. What about God, and how come he did not have a place? Whatever the reason, it was wrong to be silent. If God truly is as the Bible depicts him, surely he would have touched me as a child and told me that it doesn't have to be this way. So now, after being a Christian, I feel like my brother betrayed me....or I can just dismiss the possibility of God, and that is a much happier position for me....unless he were to make ammends....that (if the Bible is true) would be the best.

So, are you going to say it was the sheep's fault? Adstar, are you going to try to argue that?? We all start as sheep, and if given a reason to trust a shepherd, would follow. So if the shepherd neglects the sheep, it is not the sheep's fault.

It takes time to build love and trust, God (if he exists) would know this. It takes two beings to create a relationship. God (if he exists) would know this. So, where is God?