Is sin a by-product of free will?
- Thread starter The Great Red Dragon
- Start date
Have you ever had doubts about the existance of God.???
Sarkus,
Nature.
It stands to reason, yes.
We are causing us to be born.
Prison only exist if there people who transgress laws.
I don't know what you mean.
jan.
Nature.
It stands to reason, yes.
We are causing us to be born.
Prison only exist if there people who transgress laws.
I don't know what you mean.
jan.
I guess I must have doubts all the time, when I'm not thinking about God.
jan.
To what do you attribute you'r lifelong perfect relationship wit God:::
You were givin a special soul because it was in Gods plan that you woud be one of his chosen.???
You had no advantages over others who have questoned Gods existence;;; you'r superiority in that respect is completely self made.???
And in your next sentence...
So he is the cause of us causing ourselves to be born?Jan Ardena said:
So he causes us to be born knowing that in doing so we are going to prison?
Clearly. Following logic and not contradicting yourself has been a noted struggle of yours.
Let me spell it out a touch more clearly:
- God is the cause of us being born (you have admitted that this stands to reason).
- Being born into the material world means we have transgressed God's law (this is what you wrote).
- Therefore God is the cause of us transgressing His laws.
And since he punishes us for it, I would consider that hypocritical. Don't you? Or maybe not hypocritical but sadistic? Would that be a better description?
Sarkus,
Knowing that in doing so we are likely to incur more debt, because we are basically ignorant of our spiritual identity.
We're going here again are we?
Okay.
Okay.
No.
It is a simple case of the law of karma (fiction or non). Every action we make, is met with a subsequent reaction which has to be repaid.
For you, maybe.
jan.
Knowing that in doing so we are likely to incur more debt, because we are basically ignorant of our spiritual identity.
We're going here again are we?
Okay.
Okay.
No.
It is a simple case of the law of karma (fiction or non). Every action we make, is met with a subsequent reaction which has to be repaid.
For you, maybe.
jan.
So he causes us to go to prison, knowing that we are likely to incur more debt?
Don't tell me: "tough love", right?
Or sadist.
Matter of opinion, I guess.
Who the cap fits.
You're going to have to explain that one, Jan. In my book, if X causes Y and Y means Z then X causes Z. So what is wrong with that?Jan Ardena said:
But if God caused us to be born, why should we be punished rather than the one that causes that which breaks his law? As said, seems sadistic: "I'm going to cause you to do something wrong, over which you have no control, and because it breaks one of my laws, I'm also going to have to punish you for
Or maybe it's just simply stupid.
Why don't you use the reply function?
A less clear way of saying sin is disobeying god.
How many ways can you come up with to say what I say while arguing against it.
Being born does not mean that. Simply being born cannot involve any transgression & cannot obligate anyone to any debt. Further, there cannot be any god's law without a god. I'm not certain who all you think are in that we but I am certain I am not bound to any such debt & never was.
Again, people are not to blame for what they are born into & cannot owe any debt for it.
IF an omnipotent god wants me to obey, it will tell me. Until then you are only babbling bullshit.
Your arrogance is amusing. Most atheists were once very much like you before they came to their senses.
You still go on&on&on&on making claims with no evidence.
John 3:42 "Do as I say, not as I do."
Sarkus,
Do you know of any laws of civilized, that causes any of it's citizens to go to prison?
Karma means action, work or deed;[1] it also refers to the principle of causality where intent and actions of an individual influence the future of that individual. Good intent and good deed contribute to good karma and future happiness, while bad intent and bad deed contribute to bad karma and future suffering
Define ''cause''.
How is creating the conditions for a transgressor, equipped with their own free will, causing them to do something wrong?
How have you concluded that the transgressor has no control, despite having a free will?
Regarding punishment see the karma quote.
jan.
Do you know of any laws of civilized, that causes any of it's citizens to go to prison?
Karma means action, work or deed;[1] it also refers to the principle of causality where intent and actions of an individual influence the future of that individual. Good intent and good deed contribute to good karma and future happiness, while bad intent and bad deed contribute to bad karma and future suffering
Define ''cause''.
How is creating the conditions for a transgressor, equipped with their own free will, causing them to do something wrong?
How have you concluded that the transgressor has no control, despite having a free will?
Regarding punishment see the karma quote.
jan.
Where did you learn to talk so much without saying anything.
Sure, because we hold them responsible for their actions.
But we don't ethically imprison them due to being born, given that we are not responsible for our own birth, nor do we make being born a criminal act.
But it's nice that you compare God and his abilities to that of a mere civilisation.
Great, so we are born without having done anything wrong that we can be held ethically accountable for, and immediately get slapped with some debt.
You aren't doing much to paint a picture of a fair and just God, Jan. Everything you say seems merely to confirm the notion that God is rather cruel.
Cause[url="http://
[quote]How is creating the conditions for a transgressor, equipped with their own free will, causing them to do something wrong?[/quote]How does freewill relate to our birth?
Did you have freewill over your birth?
[quote]How have you concluded that the transgressor has no control, despite having a free will?[/quote]In so far as the transgression is our birth, yes, very much so. I'm intrigued as to how you think we can possibly have freewill over our own birth?
(FYI: for purposes of this discussion I will accept the premise that freewill actually exists).
[quote]Regarding punishment see the karma quote.[/quote]Regarding a God who punishes those who have no freewill over the action he punishes them for, see my previous comments regarding the apparent nature of such a God"]
How does freewill relate to our birth?
Did you have freewill over your birth?
In so far as the transgression is our birth, yes, very much so. I'm intrigued as to how you think we can possibly have freewill over our own birth?
(FYI: for purposes of this discussion I will accept the premise that freewill actually exists).
Regarding a God who punishes those who have no freewill over the action he punishes them for, see my previous comments regarding the apparent nature of such a God.[/url]
Sarkus,
I didn't that souls are imprisoned due to being born.
You said that.
I didn't compare God and His abilities to a civilisation.
You're doing that.
It is our actions that causes us to be born again and again. The material manifestation is caused by God, so that we can be born.
Oh well.
God is the original cause, of the material manifestation, using the reasonable assumption.
The material manifestation is the atmosphere where conditioned souls, act.
The conditioned soul is such because at some point it decided to become independent of God (consider the story of Adam and Eve).
In ignorance, the conditioned soul wanders from birth to birth. Until the soul remembers it original identity, and it's relation to God. At point the soul take birth in a pious family, and cultivate God consciousness.
I don’t know what you’re talking about.
I never said the transgression is our birth. Go back and read carefully what I said, then ask questions based on what I said instead of jumping the gun.
I’m raising the royal flag, as we speak.
Jan.
I didn't that souls are imprisoned due to being born.
You said that.
I didn't compare God and His abilities to a civilisation.
You're doing that.
It is our actions that causes us to be born again and again. The material manifestation is caused by God, so that we can be born.
Oh well.
God is the original cause, of the material manifestation, using the reasonable assumption.
The material manifestation is the atmosphere where conditioned souls, act.
The conditioned soul is such because at some point it decided to become independent of God (consider the story of Adam and Eve).
In ignorance, the conditioned soul wanders from birth to birth. Until the soul remembers it original identity, and it's relation to God. At point the soul take birth in a pious family, and cultivate God consciousness.
I don’t know what you’re talking about.
I never said the transgression is our birth. Go back and read carefully what I said, then ask questions based on what I said instead of jumping the gun.
I’m raising the royal flag, as we speak.
Jan.
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The reasonable assumption: If God exist then we can reasonably assume everything is evidence of God.
The reasonable assumption does not account for this, and as such I cannot recognize it as plausible consequence of it.
The reasonable assumption entertains no such notion.
jan.
I'm just getting the hang of it now.
The original sin is disobeying God, but we can't disobey God, if we don't know what and who God is.
jan.
